I guess you could actually calculate how fast it is approximately, cause it should be possible to give an estimate on how far it is away from the building in the still that shows "the object"...and an estimate for the time that elapsed between the two stills, that is object and impact
that would show if it's clearly too fast or if it is possible that a plane can fly that fast...
but I'm surely too lazy for that...
all I can say is this: if it flew 300km/h...it would take it 1sec to fly 83,3 meters...with 400km/h it would fly 111,1 meters per sec.
and if it's going 1millionkm/h it would fly 277778meters per second.
I should add: it looks like it's not much more than 100meters away from the building in the frame you can see it first...
then I guess it takes about one second until the impact...means it should fly something approaching 400km/h I think...
pretty fast...but I think a plane has at least 200 and something km/h to go before it actually takes off...
I hope those were two cents too...regarding this (much appreciated) specific question...
m.
It doesn't matter if you're too lazy to work out the speed/distance calculations. Plenty of others have already done it, and analyzed this video themselves. If you search around the net, you are sure to find plenty of examples of this. Further to that, in these stills, the fact remains, several of the frames are missing. Where are they?
obviously a lot of your truther buddies do (did) give a fuck...oh wait...that was until they were disproven
and I'll spell it out for you: if terrorists in a plain hit the pentagon...then all your other claims and arguments are WORTHLESS...
and I spell another thing out for you: PHYSICAL evidence counts a lot more than circumstantial...at least in the country I live in...and that you claim the opposite here, already shows that you lack basic knowledge
but keep sticking to your "real" researchers...
and I hope you will never have to go to court, and then some one like you is on the jury, who discounts all physical evidence and just goes with what he wants to believe in...
m.
CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE HAS BEEN USED TO CONVICT MORE CRIMINALS THAN PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, PERIOD! FACT
EVEN "DNA EVIDENCE" is "CIRCUMSTANTIAL" evidence.
And, IF THE GOVERNMENT WAS IN CONTROL OF, AWARE OF, MANIPULATING, or "HANDLING" TERRORISTS, then it does NOT DISPROVE SHIT.
A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is generally considered more powerful, but successful criminal prosecutions often rely largely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. In practice, circumstantial evidence often has an advantage over direct evidence in that it is more difficult to suppress or fabricate. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate at times, and many persons have been convicted on the basis of perjured or otherwise mistaken testimony.Good strong circumstantial evidence can be a far more reliable basis on which to make a determination of guilt. It should be noted that circumstantial evidence normally requires a witness, such as the police officer who found the evidence, or an expert who examined it, to lay the foundation for its admission. This witness, sometimes known as the sponsor or the authenticating witness, is giving direct (eye-witness) testimony, and could present credibility problems in the same way that any eye witness does.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
It doesn't matter if you're too lazy to work out the speed/distance calculations. Plenty of others have already done it, and analyzed this video themselves. If you search around the net, you are sure to find plenty of examples of this. Further to that, in these stills, the fact remains, several of the frames are missing. Where are they?
so how fast was it actually??
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE HAS BEEN USED TO CONVICT MORE CRIMINALS THAN PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, PERIOD! FACT
EVEN "DNA EVIDENCE" is "CIRCUMSTANTIAL" evidence.
And, IF THE GOVERNMENT WAS IN CONTROL OF, AWARE OF, MANIPULATING, or "HANDLING" TERRORISTS, then it does NOT DISPROVE SHIT.
Go watch "Loss of Liberty" and smell the coffee!
yeah, because in most cases there is not physical evidence availabe...(WM3 anyone?)
in this case THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE...and you keep negating it to keep up your warped world view in which you invested countless amounts of time and effort, or maybe even money...just like the next guy who travelled to africa a million times to find "circumstantial" evidence that aliens built the pyramids...
your NEGATION of facts is why I started with this whole mess...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
and I'll spell it out for you: if terrorists in a plain hit the pentagon...then all your other claims and arguments are WORTHLESS...
m.
uhhh ... how the hell does this work? ... so what if "terrorists" hit the pentagon or the world trade center? ...
what matters here is who is responsible and who was complicit in this act - that should be everyone's goal ...
who funded this operation? who benefited? who knew of this "attack"? ... all these relevant questions cannot be made irrelevant by simply knowing who was flying what object ...
It doesn't matter if you're too lazy to work out the speed/distance calculations. Plenty of others have already done it, and analyzed this video themselves. If you search around the net, you are sure to find plenty of examples of this. Further to that, in these stills, the fact remains, several of the frames are missing. Where are they?
you know what happens when I search around this issue on the internet quite often...I find fake videos...and you know what...there people that believe they are true...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
uhhh ... how the hell does this work? ... so what if "terrorists" hit the pentagon or the world trade center? ...
what matters here is who is responsible and who was complicit in this act - that should be everyone's goal ...
who funded this operation? who benefited? who knew of this "attack"? ... all these relevant questions cannot be made irrelevant by simply knowing who was flying what object ...
there were people in here that claimed it's not a plane...
and that it was part of the conspiracy to make people believe it's a plane...
I think based on physical evidence (not to mention eye-witnesses) it is a plane...
even if I think I have disproven a theory...
before claiming a new one as the absolute TRUTH...I should well make sure that it is NOT 100% shadier than the governments account ever will be...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
yeah, because in most cases there is not physical evidence availabe...(WM3 anyone?)
in this case THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE...and you keep negating it to keep up your warped world view in which you invested countless amounts of time and effort, or maybe even money...just like the next guy who travelled to africa a million times to find "circumstantial" evidence that aliens built the pyramids...
your NEGATION of facts is why I started with this whole mess...
m.
Who the fuck is negating facts?
I have NO problem "admitting" that a fucking plane hit the pentagon.
Who put up the money.
Who trained the terrorists.
Who was aware of it.
Who was meeting with who.
Who was doing what and why?
And who is ultimately responsible for the intelligence and defense "failures"?
You really think a bunch of arabs working out of a cave could pull this shit off with out help from the inside?
really?
You want to talk about flaws in logic !??!
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You really think a bunch of arabs working out of a cave could pull this shit off with out help from the inside?
really?
You want to talk about flaws in logic !??!
you, my friend are a condescending feller...in the worst case a xenophob...
if that is your starting point for arguing, I am sorry for you...
yes...I genuinly think other people than americans are mentally and physically able to do something like that...also arabs...
but you keep believing america is unvulnerable...it's only to your advantage
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
there were people in here that claimed it's not a plane...
and that it was part of the conspiracy to make people believe it's a plane...
I think based on physical evidence (not to mention eye-witnesses) it is a plane...
even if I think I have disproven a theory...
before claiming a new one as the absolute TRUTH...I should well make sure that it is NOT 100% shadier than the governments account ever will be...
m.
plane or no plane - how does it fit in with the bigger questions of the events of 9/11? ... who was ultimately responsible for those events cannot be disproven by a singular notion nor concept based on assumptions ...
you, my friend are a condescending feller...in the worst case a xenophob...
if that is your starting point for arguing, I am sorry for you...
yes...I genuinly think other people than americans are mentally and physically able to do something like that...also arabs...
but you keep believing america is unvulnerable...it's only to your advantage
m.
oh give me a fucking break!
you know damn well what i mean.
We're talking about a group that, ACCORDING TO THE U.S GOVERNMENT ITSELF (not me, not my "xenophobic", racist, biggoted, imperialist, nationalist, right wing, bircher's ass), IS HIDING OUT IN FUCKING CAVES.
FUCKING CAVES
and you think the idea of a conspiracy between highly organized members on the inside of the US Intelliegence Services is a "wild conspiracy theory",
and yet you don't see the irony in alleging it to be the CONSPIRATORIAL work of a loose knit, underfunded, and elusive network of cave dwellers?
SERIOUSLY?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I was looking at some examples of this last night, I don't have all the links. But if you google it, you will find heaps of information and analysis about this particular video.
You made a statement in an earlier post, in response to someone else..... words to the effect that too many believe that ONLY the US government could do something like this. And actually, thats not such a stretch.
I remember the day well. I was visiting the US at the time and watched it unfold like everyone else did. As events progressed, and the reports started coming through that the Pentagon had now been hit as well, the alarm bells really started ringing for me. In fact, they were screaming. I just could not, and still can not fathom how all of this could have taken place without the government somehow being involved. Especially when the Pentagon was hit. It just didn't make a lick of sense to me, that one of the most secure and patrolled (ground, air , satellite) buildings on the planet, could be breached in such a way. Especially after the attacks in NYC. How on earth could 19 high jackers with box cutters possibly pull off the worst terrorist attack in US history? All by themselves. It just stank right from the start that the US government were somehow involved in at the very least, allowing this to happen. So, perhaps the belief that only the US government could do something like this isn't that far off the mark, because seriously, how could it possibly have happened otherwise.
As time has gone by, more and more holes appeared in the official story. Did a plane hit the pentagon? Was it something else? The government could clear this one up easily if it released the confiscated footage. Thats just one of the discrepancies among many. 8 of the high jackers coming forward saying, um, ya know what, I didn't fly a plane into NYC that day. Here I am, alive and well. Why did WTC 7 collapse, even NIST couldn't explain that. Why did three buildings fall in identical fashion, for the first time ever, as a result of fire damage, never happened before ( the official explanation ) . Remembering that one of those three building did not have a plane flown into it. Why do eyewitnesses state they heard explosions, several of them, before the towers collapsed. Why were hundreds of pages of evidence and testimony omitted from the 911 commission. It goes on and on and the evidence stacks up more and more that the official story is at best, incomplete. That there is a whole lot more to this and it would take a lot more than a few hate filled extremists to pull this off. I don't know what hit the Pentagon. I don't know who flew the planes that day ( well, I know who it wasn't. It wasn't at least 8 of the named high jackers). What I do know, is that there is much information missing that could clear this up once and for all, release the confiscated tapes. You know, show us the plane.
oh give me a fucking break!
you know damn well what i mean.
We're talking about a group that, ACCORDING TO THE U.S GOVERNMENT ITSELF (not me, not my "xenophobic", racist, biggoted, imperialist, nationalist, right wing, bircher's ass), IS HIDING OUT IN FUCKING CAVES.
FUCKING CAVES
and you think the idea of a conspiracy between highly organized members on the inside of the US Intelliegence Services is a "wild conspiracy theory",
and yet you don't see the irony in alleging it to be the CONSPIRATORIAL work of a loose knit, underfunded, and elusive network of cave dwellers?
SERIOUSLY?
actually I thought the hi-jackers were partly living in Europe...some of them attending university...imagine that...!!
or do you actually believe anybody ever claimed that Osama Bin Laden sat at a desk in his "cave" making scetches and shit...hwo come you believe your gov so easy on that? maybe because "it makes sense"...
that there is a united front of terrorists in the world coming to get you is only what some the administration claims...is it so hard to grasp that a group of 19 men can work something like this out...with loose guidance from someone, not necessarily Bin Laden himself?
give me a break...
and give yourself one too...
all you do is resort to even wilder speculations to support your previous speculations...
you distort facts (like the attackers backgrounds) to make them fit the story
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I was looking at some examples of this last night, I don't have all the links. But if you google it, you will find heaps of information and analysis about this particular video.
You made a statement in an earlier post, in response to someone else..... words to the effect that too many believe that ONLY the US government could do something like this. And actually, thats not such a stretch.
I remember the day well. I was visiting the US at the time and watched it unfold like everyone else did. As events progressed, and the reports started coming through that the Pentagon had now been hit as well, the alarm bells really started ringing for me. In fact, they were screaming. I just could not, and still can not fathom how all of this could have taken place without the government somehow being involved. Especially when the Pentagon was hit. It just didn't make a lick of sense to me, that one of the most secure and patrolled (ground, air , satellite) buildings on the planet, could be breached in such a way. Especially after the attacks in NYC. How on earth could 19 high jackers with box cutters possibly pull off the worst terrorist attack in US history? All by themselves. It just stank right from the start that the US government were somehow involved in at the very least, allowing this to happen. So, perhaps the belief that only the US government could do something like this isn't that far off the mark, because seriously, how could it possibly have happened otherwise.
As time has gone by, more and more holes appeared in the official story. Did a plane hit the pentagon? Was it something else? The government could clear this one up easily if it released the confiscated footage. Thats just one of the discrepancies among many. 8 of the high jackers coming forward saying, um, ya know what, I didn't fly a plane into NYC that day. Here I am, alive and well. Why did WTC 7 collapse, even NIST couldn't explain that. Why did three buildings fall in identical fashion, for the first time ever, as a result of fire damage, never happened before ( the official explanation ) . Remembering that one of those three building did not have a plane flown into it. Why do eyewitnesses state they heard explosions, several of them, before the towers collapsed. Why were hundreds of pages of evidence and testimony omitted from the 911 commission. It goes on and on and the evidence stacks up more and more that the official story is at best, incomplete. That there is a whole lot more to this and it would take a lot more than a few hate filled extremists to pull this off. I don't know what hit the Pentagon. I don't know who flew the planes that day ( well, I know who it wasn't. It wasn't at least 8 of the named high jackers). What I do know, is that there is much information missing that could clear this up once and for all, release the confiscated tapes. You know, show us the plane.
I'm really not being rude
we talked about this in countless threads and I stated my (limited) views a lot of times...was starting the thought experiment threat to get over it really...
there things that don't "add up"...but even more so: things don't add up in all the other "theories"
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I'm really not being rude
we talked about this in countless threats and I stated my (limited) views a lot of times...was starting the thought experiment threat to get over it really...
m.
I am not being rude either, my apologies if it seems that way. I guess what I was trying to do is demonstrate a little of why so many people believe there is more to this than meets the eye. It's not an attack on those who don't see it the same way. By the same token, assuming that anyone who disbelieves the official account, and by that I don't really mean the account of what happened. Largely, we already know what happened. By that, I mean, HOW it happened. But assuming anyone who questions it, is some kind of whack job who is too dumb to discern whats real and whats fake among the information they sift through, is kinda like saying anyone who believes the official story is a sheep who eats up anything their media and government tells them.
My previous post wasn't really direct questions for you personally to answer, but rather, examples of why people are asking questions in the first place. I don't expect you or anyone else here to have all the answers. But I DO expect the American government to have at least SOME answers to some of these questions.
I am not being rude either, my apologies if it seems that way. I guess what I was trying to do is demonstrate a little of why so many people believe there is more to this than meets the eye. It's not an attack on those who don't see it the same way. By the same token, assuming that anyone who disbelieves the official account, and by that I don't really mean the account of what happened. Largely, we already know what happened. By that, I mean, HOW it happened. But assuming anyone who questions it, is some kind of whack job who is too dumb to discern whats real and whats fake among the information they sift through, is kinda like saying anyone who believes the official story is a sheep who eats up anything their media and government tells them.
My previous post wasn't really direct questions for you personally to answer, but rather, examples of why people are asking questions in the first place. I don't expect you or anyone else here to have all the answers. But I DO expect the American government to have at least SOME answers to some of these questions.
and this is exactly what I wasn't doing...
I was trying to stimulate people to come out with certain FACTS that can BACK UP their (sometimes outrageous) claims...and then tackle those facts one at a time...
but it always ended up with people asking about motives, and meetings and whatever...and they never backed anything up...just as the last minutes of this thread have shown...all he came up with was that arabs in cave can't do it...a claim that nobody than him has made...I actually pointed to the fact that the attackers didn't live in caves but that some of them actually attended university...and this is one example of how this discussion went all the time...
I can't disprove conspiracy theories as a whole...just as you can't disprove religions as a whole...they are both CLOSED WORLDVIEWS...last resort: the puppet master did it...
what I can do it raise important issues that some of those theories are mostly based on...and by showing they are highly unlikely, I can show that the whole theory is highly unlikely...simple example with religion: I think fitting all animals of the earth on one ship is highly unlikely...if this is wrong it makes the whole story unlikely...the advantage for religion is...they can resort to "symbolical" meaning...conspiracy theories can't!
m.
PS: another example: the object must fly 1million mph...my calculations showed that it's very likely that the plane flew around 400km/h...
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
and this is exactly what I wasn't doing...
I was trying to stimulate people to come out with certain FACTS that can BACK UP their (sometimes outrageous) claims...and then tackle those facts one at a time...
but it always ended up with people asking about motives, and meetings and whatever...and they never backed anything up...just as the last minutes of this thread have shown...all he came up with was that arabs in cave can't do it...a claim that nobody than him has made...I actually pointed to the fact that the attackers didn't live in caves but that some of them actually attended university...and this is one example of how this discussion went all the time...I can't disprove conspiracy theories as a whole...just as you can't disprove religions as a whole...they are both CLOSED WORLDVIEWS...last resort: the puppet master did it...
m.
Well, I guess for those of us who question the official story, don't believe facts have been presented the other way. As for a fact in direct relation to the origins of this thread. It's a fact that several frames are missing from the footage. That in turn raises the question of, ok where are those frames? That then leads to, why are they missing? I can see how these threads tend to get into a slanging match, which is why I mostly stay out of them. The thing is though, one question leads to another. You go from what you see, to what you don't see, as in a murder trial. And really, isn't this murder? In a murder trial, they take the facts ie: a dead body.. and they build a case based on evidence, mostly circumstantial, develop a theory which includes motive, and they put together a story of how it happened. The dead body already explains what happened, the story explains how, or why. In this situation, with the murder of 3000 people, the murder trial in a sense, was the 911 commission. With hundreds of pages of testimony and evidence omitted from that hearing, it is at best dissatisfying.
I think it may be a little naive of you (and I mean no offense here), to expect to come to a board like this, where the recent poll shows that more than half the people here believe there is more to this than we're being told....... an expect to start a thread and not have it turn into a more extensive discussion.
Lastly, the point about the arabs in the caves. Not sure anyone said the high jackers themselves operated out of caves, if they did they were incorrect. The whole cave dwelling arab scenario, was in fact Bin Laden and Al Quiada orchestrating 911 in it's entirety from the safety of their caves in Afghanistan.
PS: another example: the object must fly 1million mph...my calculations showed that it's very likely that the plane flew around 400km/h...[/quote]
Opps, forgot this bit. You are probably very close to correct here. The object/plane probably was flying at 4-500 miles an hour. Which illustrates the point that poster was making........... that in order for that to be a plane and yet we see so little of it, it had to be flying a million miles an hour. Of course it wasn't, planes don't fly that fast, nothing does. So, if it was flying at 400 miles an hour, wouldn't we be seeing much more of the plane on the film? All that can be seen is a white tip in the right corner of the screen, and in the next frame, the explosion. We don't see it's path into the building. The only way it would unfold like that, is if it was indeed traveling at a million miles an hour. ( figure of speech). We don't see more of the plane, because there are frames missing from those pictures. I'm not saying necessarily that it wasn't a plane, but I am saying we don't actually SEE a plane.
I think it may be a little naive of you (and I mean no offense here), to expect to come to a board like this, where the recent poll shows that more than half the people here believe there is more to this than we're being told....... an expect to start a thread and not have it turn into a more extensive discussion.
this poll is...useless...I would put a yes to both answers...:)
I think it is NOT naive to come to a board like this and challenge the SPECIFIC view that, and I quote: "brain-washed CIA agents flew the planes into the WTC" which is what I did in my first original thread http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=294832
I really appreciate your input...and I totally agree with you...
my goal here was to challenge overall sensationalist and unsubstantial claims about specific events.
heck, I started this threat because somebody had claimed that no footage was released by the government that shows the pentagon attack...turns out the person meant all the other video footage, but not this one here...well, I'm sorry...but especially in a non-direct conversation, you have to be accurate...
If a plane traveling ten feet off the ground for 300 yards and carrying 12 MTers, 1 Creed fan and 3 Deadheads was headed for the Pentagon; how long would it take the MTers to decide if the chicken be served is an Organic Free Range Chicken or a Penned Full Of Steroids and Anitbiotics chicken?
this poll is...useless...I would put a yes to both answers...:)
I think it is NOT naive to come to a board like this and challenge the SPECIFIC view that, and I quote: "brain-washed CIA agents flew the planes into the WTC" which is what I did in my first original thread http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=294832
I really appreciate your input...and I totally agree with you...
my goal here was to challenge overall sensationalist and unsubstantial claims about specific events.
heck, I started this threat because somebody had claimed that no footage was released by the government that shows the pentagon attack...turns out the person meant all the other video footage, but not this one here...well, I'm sorry...but especially in a non-direct conversation, you have to be accurate...
I watched some of the other thread, but it got out of control so fast it was hard to keep up.
Not sure where the brainwashed CIA agents thing came up, but it's not a view I subscribe to. The tone of the other threads always ends up the same way though. People come into them at first with legitimate questions, legitimate speculative answers and then the ego steps in to insist one is right. In relation to your original thread about the videos in question, no one has been able to offer any kind of explanation to my questions. And I suppose the reality is that no one actually has the answer, whichever side of the fence you sit on. I can't explain the missing frames, but nor can you, or anyone else. But this isn't an unsubstantiated or sensationalist claim, it's a fact. But the facts get lost in the emotional response people have to all of this.
For the record, personally, I started asking questions about all of this the day it happened. Long before the official story was put together, long before a lot of the facts, and many of the misconceptions and outright lies ( on both sides) started flying around. I've spent a lot of time finding as much info as I can about it, and I feel that I am able to pick the bullshit apart from the legit. It's not simply a matter of watching every youtube video and assuming none of it could possibly be fake. I know plenty of it is, and plenty of it is swung the way people want to present it. But at the end of the day, I just don't ( not can't) believe that the US government weren't somehow involved. The extent of that involvement, I have no idea. Did they simply allow it to happen? Were they complicit? Did they orchestrate it from beginning to end? I don't know, but I'd sure like to.
If a plane traveling ten feet off the ground for 300 yards and carrying 12 MTers, 1 Creed fan and 3 Deadheads was headed for the Pentagon; how long would it take the MTers to decide if the chicken be served is an Organic Free Range Chicken or a Penned Full Of Steroids and Anitbiotics chicken?
I watched some of the other thread, but it got out of control so fast it was hard to keep up.
Not sure where the brainwashed CIA agents thing came up, but it's not a view I subscribe to. The tone of the other threads always ends up the same way though. People come into them at first with legitimate questions, legitimate speculative answers and then the ego steps in to insist one is right. In relation to your original thread about the videos in question, no one has been able to offer any kind of explanation to my questions. And I suppose the reality is that no one actually has the answer, whichever side of the fence you sit on. I can't explain the missing frames, but nor can you, or anyone else. But this isn't an unsubstantiated or sensationalist claim, it's a fact. But the facts get lost in the emotional response people have to all of this.
For the record, personally, I started asking questions about all of this the day it happened. Long before the official story was put together, long before a lot of the facts, and many of the misconceptions and outright lies ( on both sides) started flying around. I've spent a lot of time finding as much info as I can about it, and I feel that I am able to pick the bullshit apart from the legit. It's not simply a matter of watching every youtube video and assuming none of it could possibly be fake. I know plenty of it is, and plenty of it is swung the way people want to present it. But at the end of the day, I just don't ( not can't) believe that the US government weren't somehow involved. The extent of that involvement, I have no idea. Did they simply allow it to happen? Were they complicit? Did they orchestrate it from beginning to end? I don't know, but I'd sure like to.
you are very reasonable...other people aren't...and those people I addressed...
EDIT: deleted the last part, cause I really don't want to continue...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
you are very reasonable...other people aren't...and those people I addressed...
but I just raise this last common sense question:
if the Bush administration either is responsible, or let it happen(knowingly)...they are insane...and this is one thing thatt bothers me about the conspiracy theories...not insane in the way that they like killing people, but in the way that it would be their absolute end if it came out (which can obviously easily be inferred according to some)...and to orchestrate such a complex thing, that not the actual attack is, but the thing consp.theorists claim happened...makes absolutely no sense whatsover, no matter what kind of goals you have...
m.
The Bush Administration....Chenney and all of his corporate buddies and interests....are insane. They've proven that countless times. Iraq is just one HUGE, dispicable example of that insanity. But you don't havce to look to the Iraq War to see the demented insanity.
Just look around....look at the last eight years and what they have done to this country. There's plenty insanity to be viewed. Eight years worth. The Clinton years, too.
All depends on whether we as individuals wnat to close our eyes, cover our ears and dismiss it all; for the purpose of avoiding the harsh reality of it all.
Or if we want to look it straight in the face, bear it and fight to reverse and change the damage done ; not only here in the USA, but on the international level.
I've not seen or heard anything that leads me to believe anything but planes hit the Pentagon or the Twin Towers. A plane clearly hit the second tower, watched it live on TV. Air control records show airplanes terminating at targets. Now who was in the cockpits & who provided financial backing, thats a different matter.
I do know as Bush was sitting in the kindergarden classroom surrounded by his peers and just sat there dumbfounded....he was thinking....I now have an excuse to attack Iraq and make my daddy proud. Ha ha...
I have NO problem "admitting" that a fucking plane hit the pentagon.
Who put up the money.
Who trained the terrorists.
Who was aware of it.
Who was meeting with who.
Who was doing what and why?
And who is ultimately responsible for the intelligence and defense "failures"?
You really think a bunch of arabs working out of a cave could pull this shit off with out help from the inside?
really?
You want to talk about flaws in logic !??!
Cave dwellers are smarter than you think. They live in caves.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I've not seen or heard anything that leads me to believe anything but planes hit the Pentagon or the Twin Towers. A plane clearly hit the second tower, watched it live on TV. Air control records show airplanes terminating at targets. Now who was in the cockpits & who provided financial backing, thats a different matter.
I do know as Bush was sitting in the kindergarden classroom surrounded by his peers and just sat there dumbfounded....he was thinking....I now have an excuse to attack Iraq and make my daddy proud. Ha ha...
thanks for your post, too:)
at least this threat achieved SOMEthing, then...
and you point out correctly, that pilots and finance are different matters...
now I have to bring my post count down...cause I want to keep being a DISSIDENT...;)
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
the fact that you even repeat that people actually planned the attack(s) in caves puzzles me to say the least...now tell me about disinformation...
the fact that I even reply to this utter nonsense puzzles me even more...
by stating things over and over again they don't become true...even if they "make sense", you know...
m.
You've been spun into oblivion by mainstream television.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
It doesn't matter if you're too lazy to work out the speed/distance calculations. Plenty of others have already done it, and analyzed this video themselves. If you search around the net, you are sure to find plenty of examples of this. Further to that, in these stills, the fact remains, several of the frames are missing. Where are they?
CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE HAS BEEN USED TO CONVICT MORE CRIMINALS THAN PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, PERIOD! FACT
EVEN "DNA EVIDENCE" is "CIRCUMSTANTIAL" evidence.
And, IF THE GOVERNMENT WAS IN CONTROL OF, AWARE OF, MANIPULATING, or "HANDLING" TERRORISTS, then it does NOT DISPROVE SHIT.
Go watch "Loss of Liberty" and smell the coffee!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
so how fast was it actually??
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
yeah, because in most cases there is not physical evidence availabe...(WM3 anyone?)
in this case THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE...and you keep negating it to keep up your warped world view in which you invested countless amounts of time and effort, or maybe even money...just like the next guy who travelled to africa a million times to find "circumstantial" evidence that aliens built the pyramids...
your NEGATION of facts is why I started with this whole mess...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
uhhh ... how the hell does this work? ... so what if "terrorists" hit the pentagon or the world trade center? ...
what matters here is who is responsible and who was complicit in this act - that should be everyone's goal ...
who funded this operation? who benefited? who knew of this "attack"? ... all these relevant questions cannot be made irrelevant by simply knowing who was flying what object ...
you know what happens when I search around this issue on the internet quite often...I find fake videos...and you know what...there people that believe they are true...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
there were people in here that claimed it's not a plane...
and that it was part of the conspiracy to make people believe it's a plane...
I think based on physical evidence (not to mention eye-witnesses) it is a plane...
even if I think I have disproven a theory...
before claiming a new one as the absolute TRUTH...I should well make sure that it is NOT 100% shadier than the governments account ever will be...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I have NO problem "admitting" that a fucking plane hit the pentagon.
Who put up the money.
Who trained the terrorists.
Who was aware of it.
Who was meeting with who.
Who was doing what and why?
And who is ultimately responsible for the intelligence and defense "failures"?
You really think a bunch of arabs working out of a cave could pull this shit off with out help from the inside?
really?
You want to talk about flaws in logic !??!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
you, my friend are a condescending feller...in the worst case a xenophob...
if that is your starting point for arguing, I am sorry for you...
yes...I genuinly think other people than americans are mentally and physically able to do something like that...also arabs...
but you keep believing america is unvulnerable...it's only to your advantage
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
plane or no plane - how does it fit in with the bigger questions of the events of 9/11? ... who was ultimately responsible for those events cannot be disproven by a singular notion nor concept based on assumptions ...
you know damn well what i mean.
We're talking about a group that, ACCORDING TO THE U.S GOVERNMENT ITSELF (not me, not my "xenophobic", racist, biggoted, imperialist, nationalist, right wing, bircher's ass), IS HIDING OUT IN FUCKING CAVES.
FUCKING CAVES
and you think the idea of a conspiracy between highly organized members on the inside of the US Intelliegence Services is a "wild conspiracy theory",
and yet you don't see the irony in alleging it to be the CONSPIRATORIAL work of a loose knit, underfunded, and elusive network of cave dwellers?
SERIOUSLY?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I was looking at some examples of this last night, I don't have all the links. But if you google it, you will find heaps of information and analysis about this particular video.
You made a statement in an earlier post, in response to someone else..... words to the effect that too many believe that ONLY the US government could do something like this. And actually, thats not such a stretch.
I remember the day well. I was visiting the US at the time and watched it unfold like everyone else did. As events progressed, and the reports started coming through that the Pentagon had now been hit as well, the alarm bells really started ringing for me. In fact, they were screaming. I just could not, and still can not fathom how all of this could have taken place without the government somehow being involved. Especially when the Pentagon was hit. It just didn't make a lick of sense to me, that one of the most secure and patrolled (ground, air , satellite) buildings on the planet, could be breached in such a way. Especially after the attacks in NYC. How on earth could 19 high jackers with box cutters possibly pull off the worst terrorist attack in US history? All by themselves. It just stank right from the start that the US government were somehow involved in at the very least, allowing this to happen. So, perhaps the belief that only the US government could do something like this isn't that far off the mark, because seriously, how could it possibly have happened otherwise.
As time has gone by, more and more holes appeared in the official story. Did a plane hit the pentagon? Was it something else? The government could clear this one up easily if it released the confiscated footage. Thats just one of the discrepancies among many. 8 of the high jackers coming forward saying, um, ya know what, I didn't fly a plane into NYC that day. Here I am, alive and well. Why did WTC 7 collapse, even NIST couldn't explain that. Why did three buildings fall in identical fashion, for the first time ever, as a result of fire damage, never happened before ( the official explanation ) . Remembering that one of those three building did not have a plane flown into it. Why do eyewitnesses state they heard explosions, several of them, before the towers collapsed. Why were hundreds of pages of evidence and testimony omitted from the 911 commission. It goes on and on and the evidence stacks up more and more that the official story is at best, incomplete. That there is a whole lot more to this and it would take a lot more than a few hate filled extremists to pull this off. I don't know what hit the Pentagon. I don't know who flew the planes that day ( well, I know who it wasn't. It wasn't at least 8 of the named high jackers). What I do know, is that there is much information missing that could clear this up once and for all, release the confiscated tapes. You know, show us the plane.
actually I thought the hi-jackers were partly living in Europe...some of them attending university...imagine that...!!
or do you actually believe anybody ever claimed that Osama Bin Laden sat at a desk in his "cave" making scetches and shit...hwo come you believe your gov so easy on that? maybe because "it makes sense"...
that there is a united front of terrorists in the world coming to get you is only what some the administration claims...is it so hard to grasp that a group of 19 men can work something like this out...with loose guidance from someone, not necessarily Bin Laden himself?
give me a break...
and give yourself one too...
all you do is resort to even wilder speculations to support your previous speculations...
you distort facts (like the attackers backgrounds) to make them fit the story
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I'm really not being rude
we talked about this in countless threads and I stated my (limited) views a lot of times...was starting the thought experiment threat to get over it really...
there things that don't "add up"...but even more so: things don't add up in all the other "theories"
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I am not being rude either, my apologies if it seems that way. I guess what I was trying to do is demonstrate a little of why so many people believe there is more to this than meets the eye. It's not an attack on those who don't see it the same way. By the same token, assuming that anyone who disbelieves the official account, and by that I don't really mean the account of what happened. Largely, we already know what happened. By that, I mean, HOW it happened. But assuming anyone who questions it, is some kind of whack job who is too dumb to discern whats real and whats fake among the information they sift through, is kinda like saying anyone who believes the official story is a sheep who eats up anything their media and government tells them.
My previous post wasn't really direct questions for you personally to answer, but rather, examples of why people are asking questions in the first place. I don't expect you or anyone else here to have all the answers. But I DO expect the American government to have at least SOME answers to some of these questions.
and this is exactly what I wasn't doing...
I was trying to stimulate people to come out with certain FACTS that can BACK UP their (sometimes outrageous) claims...and then tackle those facts one at a time...
but it always ended up with people asking about motives, and meetings and whatever...and they never backed anything up...just as the last minutes of this thread have shown...all he came up with was that arabs in cave can't do it...a claim that nobody than him has made...I actually pointed to the fact that the attackers didn't live in caves but that some of them actually attended university...and this is one example of how this discussion went all the time...
I can't disprove conspiracy theories as a whole...just as you can't disprove religions as a whole...they are both CLOSED WORLDVIEWS...last resort: the puppet master did it...
what I can do it raise important issues that some of those theories are mostly based on...and by showing they are highly unlikely, I can show that the whole theory is highly unlikely...simple example with religion: I think fitting all animals of the earth on one ship is highly unlikely...if this is wrong it makes the whole story unlikely...the advantage for religion is...they can resort to "symbolical" meaning...conspiracy theories can't!
m.
PS: another example: the object must fly 1million mph...my calculations showed that it's very likely that the plane flew around 400km/h...
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Well, I guess for those of us who question the official story, don't believe facts have been presented the other way. As for a fact in direct relation to the origins of this thread. It's a fact that several frames are missing from the footage. That in turn raises the question of, ok where are those frames? That then leads to, why are they missing? I can see how these threads tend to get into a slanging match, which is why I mostly stay out of them. The thing is though, one question leads to another. You go from what you see, to what you don't see, as in a murder trial. And really, isn't this murder? In a murder trial, they take the facts ie: a dead body.. and they build a case based on evidence, mostly circumstantial, develop a theory which includes motive, and they put together a story of how it happened. The dead body already explains what happened, the story explains how, or why. In this situation, with the murder of 3000 people, the murder trial in a sense, was the 911 commission. With hundreds of pages of testimony and evidence omitted from that hearing, it is at best dissatisfying.
I think it may be a little naive of you (and I mean no offense here), to expect to come to a board like this, where the recent poll shows that more than half the people here believe there is more to this than we're being told....... an expect to start a thread and not have it turn into a more extensive discussion.
Lastly, the point about the arabs in the caves. Not sure anyone said the high jackers themselves operated out of caves, if they did they were incorrect. The whole cave dwelling arab scenario, was in fact Bin Laden and Al Quiada orchestrating 911 in it's entirety from the safety of their caves in Afghanistan.
Opps, forgot this bit. You are probably very close to correct here. The object/plane probably was flying at 4-500 miles an hour. Which illustrates the point that poster was making........... that in order for that to be a plane and yet we see so little of it, it had to be flying a million miles an hour. Of course it wasn't, planes don't fly that fast, nothing does. So, if it was flying at 400 miles an hour, wouldn't we be seeing much more of the plane on the film? All that can be seen is a white tip in the right corner of the screen, and in the next frame, the explosion. We don't see it's path into the building. The only way it would unfold like that, is if it was indeed traveling at a million miles an hour. ( figure of speech). We don't see more of the plane, because there are frames missing from those pictures. I'm not saying necessarily that it wasn't a plane, but I am saying we don't actually SEE a plane.
this poll is...useless...I would put a yes to both answers...:)
I think it is NOT naive to come to a board like this and challenge the SPECIFIC view that, and I quote: "brain-washed CIA agents flew the planes into the WTC" which is what I did in my first original thread
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=294832
I really appreciate your input...and I totally agree with you...
my goal here was to challenge overall sensationalist and unsubstantial claims about specific events.
heck, I started this threat because somebody had claimed that no footage was released by the government that shows the pentagon attack...turns out the person meant all the other video footage, but not this one here...well, I'm sorry...but especially in a non-direct conversation, you have to be accurate...
and please, check out my other thread (that is dying otherwise;))
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=295066
and you will see what I am aiming at:)
thank you:)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I watched some of the other thread, but it got out of control so fast it was hard to keep up.
Not sure where the brainwashed CIA agents thing came up, but it's not a view I subscribe to. The tone of the other threads always ends up the same way though. People come into them at first with legitimate questions, legitimate speculative answers and then the ego steps in to insist one is right. In relation to your original thread about the videos in question, no one has been able to offer any kind of explanation to my questions. And I suppose the reality is that no one actually has the answer, whichever side of the fence you sit on. I can't explain the missing frames, but nor can you, or anyone else. But this isn't an unsubstantiated or sensationalist claim, it's a fact. But the facts get lost in the emotional response people have to all of this.
For the record, personally, I started asking questions about all of this the day it happened. Long before the official story was put together, long before a lot of the facts, and many of the misconceptions and outright lies ( on both sides) started flying around. I've spent a lot of time finding as much info as I can about it, and I feel that I am able to pick the bullshit apart from the legit. It's not simply a matter of watching every youtube video and assuming none of it could possibly be fake. I know plenty of it is, and plenty of it is swung the way people want to present it. But at the end of the day, I just don't ( not can't) believe that the US government weren't somehow involved. The extent of that involvement, I have no idea. Did they simply allow it to happen? Were they complicit? Did they orchestrate it from beginning to end? I don't know, but I'd sure like to.
LMFAO......... thanks!
you are very reasonable...other people aren't...and those people I addressed...
EDIT: deleted the last part, cause I really don't want to continue...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
http://www.securitycamdepot.com/Home.html
If only... :(
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
The Bush Administration....Chenney and all of his corporate buddies and interests....are insane. They've proven that countless times. Iraq is just one HUGE, dispicable example of that insanity. But you don't havce to look to the Iraq War to see the demented insanity.
Just look around....look at the last eight years and what they have done to this country. There's plenty insanity to be viewed. Eight years worth. The Clinton years, too.
All depends on whether we as individuals wnat to close our eyes, cover our ears and dismiss it all; for the purpose of avoiding the harsh reality of it all.
Or if we want to look it straight in the face, bear it and fight to reverse and change the damage done ; not only here in the USA, but on the international level.
I've not seen or heard anything that leads me to believe anything but planes hit the Pentagon or the Twin Towers. A plane clearly hit the second tower, watched it live on TV. Air control records show airplanes terminating at targets. Now who was in the cockpits & who provided financial backing, thats a different matter.
I do know as Bush was sitting in the kindergarden classroom surrounded by his peers and just sat there dumbfounded....he was thinking....I now have an excuse to attack Iraq and make my daddy proud. Ha ha...
Cave dwellers are smarter than you think. They live in caves.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
the fact that you even repeat that people actually planned the attack(s) in caves puzzles me to say the least...now tell me about disinformation...
the fact that I even reply to this utter nonsense puzzles me even more...
by stating things over and over again they don't become true...even if they "make sense", you know...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
thanks for your post, too:)
at least this threat achieved SOMEthing, then...
and you point out correctly, that pilots and finance are different matters...
now I have to bring my post count down...cause I want to keep being a DISSIDENT...;)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
You've been spun into oblivion by mainstream television.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")