should charlie manson get parole?

Ahnimus

Wow, hot debate!

This is a thick subject. I want to add some clarification to the conversation I missed. It seems like a pretty hot issue, and it would be so much more interesting if it didn't have so much emotional baggage.

Manson's ticking can't be studied very well if he's not ticking. You can perform some basic scans and an autopsy. But you can't stimulate the system to observe the brain's behaviour. You can't tell if he's deficient in some functional way, as opposed to an obvious trauma or stroke. Something like sythnesthesia has been discarded as "crazy" for a long time, but now is proving to be quite significant to understand human ticking for all people, not just the sythnesthetes. Check out the Bouba/Kiki effect. 95% of people guess which shape is bouba and which is kiki correctly. That is way better than chance, and it's made clear by understanding specific wiring in the brain which requires some serious observation of the patient to diagnose. Anyway, behavior studies with brain scans and such are the way to study a brain.

I want to try to add perspective to the idea of "IS". I think there are two perspectives to look at reality. Inside the system and outside of the system. You get a different perspective looking outside of reality back in. Then add in another perspective questioning the outside perspective. That is our cognitive power. To scrutinize our perspective. Anyway, the universe is "finely tuned" or rather is very specific to very small decimal places. I mean, we exist in the universe, right? Well it all seems to fit together, things happen in sequences, there are numerical patterns, and certain arrangements add perspective or create new things. Everything is ordered. When a person acts, they act exactly as they have to. No one can act differently than they act. It's fate. This topic is also fate. Ultimately whatever comes from our discussions is determined, as am I determined to write this, and you are determined to disagree with me. In this perspective of determination, things might be considered perfect. But the question arises, why 0.007? why doesn't 0.006 work? The implication is that it has to be that number. Just as humans and everything they do has to be. It's the evolution of the universe, or the natural progression of the system in which we exist. Looking at this system from the outside makes it apparent that no one is ultimately to blame for their actions. Rather, they are held "accountable", that is, actions are taken on them by other humans protecting themselves. Revenge and hatred are completely useless and actually really bad.

I know someone that really kind of bugs me almost daily. A friend at work. I call him a friend because I don't ultimately blame him for his behavior and I do like some aspects of him, as I do in all people I get to know. I could conspire against him with other co-workers. It would be really easy because he appears socially inept. He's a very dislikable guy. It would be very easy to hate him in a social environment with other's hating him and fueling my hate in return. We all would contribute to the environment that ultimately affects us as well. Anyway, I think he's frustrated. I don't think he has the history to really get along well with all people. I think he has a very narrow perspective and his awareness has never really ventured from himself. When I have an epiphany it's profound. As it is I imagine for all. Intuitively it seems like a new consciousness, or an awareness that was there all the time, but came it bright clarity, a life-changing event. In a way, I sometimes felt ashamed I hadn't realized the significance before. So I can't really blame someone for not having an epiphany about something. It's uncontrolled. Our awareness or consciousness as we call it, is just a cog in the machine, it serves it's purpose but it's neither responsible for it's self or in complete control of the system. It is just a piece of the machine.

There is so much depth to reality that I think Angelica is really getting at. I really think there has been a lot of misunderstanding and I hope I added a new narrative on the subject what's "perfect" or what "IS" and that. I could really go on for ever.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

.......... I could really go on for ever.

So I see! Now give me a minute or 5, I'm gonna need them to plow through all that ^ at this late stage of the day! If my head hasn't exploded, I'll be back!

MLC2006

Jeanie wrote:

Just a quick question, are you referring to America having the death penalty with that statement regarding how your thoughts are pretty much in line with what most of society thinks? Because we don't have it here.

yes. I'm not sure where you are. I'm referring to the fact that I'm American, Manson is an American, and the crimes he committed were against Americans, and America has the death penalty. and the majority of Americans agree that the death penalty is the proper punishment for murderers, which I agree with. and most forget the fact that Manson was originally sentenced to the death penalty.

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

please tell me what state sanctioned violence has been the answer to?

hey, i agree manson should never be released and anyone who thinks he should perhaps should go spend time with him. i don't think he is misunderstood. i think he is a very dangerous individual and i am more than pleased to have him separated from society.

state sanctioned violence freed the nation from British rule. state sanctioned violence kept the nation together when half the nation wanted to leave the union. state sanctioned violence helped end Hitler and Japan's goal to rule most of the earth. the cold war led to all kinds of the technology that we now enjoy. so violence has played a big part in things.

if you agree with me that Manson should not be out in society, then we really don't have much to argue.

MLC2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Wow, hot debate!

This is a thick subject. I want to add some clarification to the conversation I missed. It seems like a pretty hot issue, and it would be so much more interesting if it didn't have so much emotional baggage.

Manson's ticking can't be studied very well if he's not ticking. You can perform some basic scans and an autopsy. But you can't stimulate the system to observe the brain's behaviour. You can't tell if he's deficient in some functional way, as opposed to an obvious trauma or stroke. Something like sythnesthesia has been discarded as "crazy" for a long time, but now is proving to be quite significant to understand human ticking for all people, not just the sythnesthetes. Check out the Bouba/Kiki effect. 95% of people guess which shape is bouba and which is kiki correctly. That is way better than chance, and it's made clear by understanding specific wiring in the brain which requires some serious observation of the patient to diagnose. Anyway, behavior studies with brain scans and such are the way to study a brain.

I want to try to add perspective to the idea of "IS". I think there are two perspectives to look at reality. Inside the system and outside of the system. You get a different perspective looking outside of reality back in. Then add in another perspective questioning the outside perspective. That is our cognitive power. To scrutinize our perspective. Anyway, the universe is "finely tuned" or rather is very specific to very small decimal places. I mean, we exist in the universe, right? Well it all seems to fit together, things happen in sequences, there are numerical patterns, and certain arrangements add perspective or create new things. Everything is ordered. When a person acts, they act exactly as they have to. No one can act differently than they act. It's fate. This topic is also fate. Ultimately whatever comes from our discussions is determined, as am I determined to write this, and you are determined to disagree with me. In this perspective of determination, things might be considered perfect. But the question arises, why 0.007? why doesn't 0.006 work? The implication is that it has to be that number. Just as humans and everything they do has to be. It's the evolution of the universe, or the natural progression of the system in which we exist. Looking at this system from the outside makes it apparent that no one is ultimately to blame for their actions. Rather, they are held "accountable", that is, actions are taken on them by other humans protecting themselves. Revenge and hatred are completely useless and actually really bad.

I know someone that really kind of bugs me almost daily. A friend at work. I call him a friend because I don't ultimately blame him for his behavior and I do like some aspects of him, as I do in all people I get to know. I could conspire against him with other co-workers. It would be really easy because he appears socially inept. He's a very dislikable guy. It would be very easy to hate him in a social environment with other's hating him and fueling my hate in return. We all would contribute to the environment that ultimately affects us as well. Anyway, I think he's frustrated. I don't think he has the history to really get along well with all people. I think he has a very narrow perspective and his awareness has never really ventured from himself. When I have an epiphany it's profound. As it is I imagine for all. Intuitively it seems like a new consciousness, or an awareness that was there all the time, but came it bright clarity, a life-changing event. In a way, I sometimes felt ashamed I hadn't realized the significance before. So I can't really blame someone for not having an epiphany about something. It's uncontrolled. Our awareness or consciousness as we call it, is just a cog in the machine, it serves it's purpose but it's neither responsible for it's self or in complete control of the system. It is just a piece of the machine.

There is so much depth to reality that I think Angelica is really getting at. I really think there has been a lot of misunderstanding and I hope I added a new narrative on the subject what's "perfect" or what "IS" and that. I could really go on for ever.

why can't Manson's ticking be studied after he's no longer ticking?? it's the actions and events that led up to his crimes that we need to be concerned with, not what he's done and how he's acted since he's been behind bars. we've got out of Manson what we're going to get, it's not like we're learning anything new on this subject.

as far as the "reality" and the "IS" and the "perfection" and the "right/wrong", sorry, I just can't really get into that with a straight face. if you want to live by those kinds of philosophies and analyze every little minute detail of your existence, go for it. but I'm not, and I'm not going to get into a long drawn out discussion over it because while it's perfectly fine if it works for YOU, I think it causes you to miss the bigger picture. right and wrong are not so complex to me and that type of over analyzing of the concepts of right and wrong, I find to be quite fruity.

melodious

Hey Jammers:

Although I haven't really read the entire thread about Charlie...I can tell you a little history about his stay in Vacaville Prison...He was there before they moved him a few years back for the duration of his incarceration. Vacaville State Prison is a medical facility. When Manson came in during the sixties, many of the inmates there were selling themselves to nuclear testing..I mean that I know of one person for certain who took shots of radiation to have a bit of money on his books...

Here the general population is selling their souls and body parts for existence beyond their .05 cents an hours while.......

Charlie Manson had an entire wing devoted to him in the prison..He was put on elitest status, even in the Penal Institution...Let him free??? The general population during that time, wanted to "off" him...So, if the boyz in orange couldn't see any worth, then.....How could he ever get parole???? He is a monster...He is the only example that I can use that actually supports good guy/bad guy philosophy....He is one example for myself that advocates law enforcement.

I doubt they will give him parole anyway..I have a friend who shot an off duty cop back in 1984 in a bar brawl (accidental shooting), he was sentenced to do 15-life...his basic time has been over due; each year we write a letter; each year it is denied...

I can only hope the same happens for Charlie....

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I want to try to add perspective to the idea of "IS". I think there are two perspectives to look at reality. Inside the system and outside of the system. You get a different perspective looking outside of reality back in. Then add in another perspective questioning the outside perspective. That is our cognitive power. To scrutinize our perspective. Anyway, the universe is "finely tuned" or rather is very specific to very small decimal places. I mean, we exist in the universe, right? Well it all seems to fit together, things happen in sequences, there are numerical patterns, and certain arrangements add perspective or create new things. Everything is ordered. When a person acts, they act exactly as they have to. No one can act differently than they act. It's fate. This topic is also fate. Ultimately whatever comes from our discussions is determined, as am I determined to write this, and you are determined to disagree with me. In this perspective of determination, things might be considered perfect. But the question arises, why 0.007? why doesn't 0.006 work? The implication is that it has to be that number. Just as humans and everything they do has to be. It's the evolution of the universe, or the natural progression of the system in which we exist. Looking at this system from the outside makes it apparent that no one is ultimately to blame for their actions. Rather, they are held "accountable", that is, actions are taken on them by other humans protecting themselves. Revenge and hatred are completely useless and actually really bad.

Very nice Ahnimus!

To add, I am personally very glad that despite the fact that the legal system is quite imperfect, that it has some strict objective standards, that often prevents the lynch-mob mentality of a society, ignorant of understanding, from acting upon such ignorance. The current legal system in this case, although imperfect, demands that Charles Manson be treated fairly and humanely and not be abused, degraded and denigrated for his crimes or his illness/es, like the more mainstream ignorance sometimes calls for. The job of the system is rather to hold him simply accountable. It is not the system's job to satisfy the anger and lack of productive resolution society has on such matters. My guess is that there are flawed, and ignorant people within the system who do abuse the spirit and the letter of the law and with human fallacy, do not uphold the law, and who might denigrate or abuse Charles Manson, and thusly the accountabilty for that is on them. The same system does not allow unchecked human emotion and judgment to make the actual judgments in each case, knowing how flawed the human psyche is. Rather it has a strict system with checks and balances that focuses on the Is-ness (facts) and proof of Is-ness (evidence) alone. The system seeks to bring ignorance and human flaw/dysfunctionsal mystification to Light so as to demystify it and to understand. And ONLY when such process is followed, and demystification takes place to the highest degree possible given the many natural flaws, judgment comes into play. And even then, when such judgment is meted out, I don't think there is a human alive who believes in the perfection of the legal system, because such perfection is a fallacy. And even if it was believed to be perfect, we have case after case where errors and huge miscarriages of justice have been proven to taken place.

So, again, given the rampant ignorance abound, and given the lack of understanding among society about the "evil that THEY do" and must live with daily, I take solace in knowing natural law, and human systems with high intent to uphold the perfection of natural law, are in place and evolving.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

state sanctioned violence freed the nation from British rule. state sanctioned violence kept the nation together when half the nation wanted to leave the union. state sanctioned violence helped end Hitler and Japan's goal to rule most of the earth. the cold war led to all kinds of the technology that we now enjoy. so violence has played a big part in things.

if you agree with me that Manson should not be out in society, then we really don't have much to argue.

well my take is that violence,if it is to occur, is ALWAYS ALWAYs the last option in conflict. there are ways to remove leaders from office without involving the whole world or singular countries in a prolonged war.

we weren't in disagreement about freeeing manson. the clash came from your stand on the death penalty, which i am opposed to. i see execution merely as revenge cause we all know it doesn't deter murderers and the like.

Juberoo

Maybe if we went back to the "eye for an eye" philosophy, society would improve and the argument of morals would be erraticated. Whatever you do to someone else, is what you will get back immediately in return. I think it would definitely force people to rethink their behaviors and actions.

catefrances

Juberoo wrote:

Maybe if we went back to the "eye for an eye" philosophy, society would improve and the argument of morals would be erraticated. Whatever you do to someone else, is what you will get back immediately in return. I think it would definitely force people to rethink their behaviors and actions.

an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Juberoo

MLC2006 wrote:

how did he "misunderstand"?? is he not the judge of how he perceives something? so by your logic, there is no such thing as understanding or misunderstanding. because "understanding" would be "right" and "misunderstanding" would be "wrong", which are things that cannot exist, correct? maybe by the way YOU perceive things, he's misunderstanding. but I think he's understanding it just fine.

LOL! That was great!

Juberoo

Jeanie wrote:

Considering that Juberoo is not a "he" that's one small misunderstanding I can clear up right now.

Interesting though, that if we are misunderstanding that then there may be other things we are misunderstanding as well.

Thank you...definitely not a "he"....and not a "god" either as was mentioned in another post. Just a person who recognizes the reality of right and wrong.

Juberoo

Jeanie wrote:

Ok. I see your point. But if he had been killed 35+ years ago what's not to say that he didn't become even more powerful than he is now in his death?
What's not to say that he wouldn't have achieved some cult icon type status by now and be even more of a martyr? And even more dangerous as one?

Because maybe if he had been held more accountable for his actions rather than getting a slap on the wrist and notoriety for continuing his bizarre behaviors in prision...others might not have followed his example, others might not still hold him in such high regard etc. Yes there will always be people who follow the negatives. Some out of ignorance, some out of greed, some out of plain folly....but those few would certainly have another angle to consider if Manson had been given the death sentence for his actions.

Like Hitler, there are still those who follow his ideology. But on a larger scale are those who are disgusted by it. Had he not been stopped and held accountable for his actions, think of how many MORE people would have continued to uphold his principles.

Some things in life simply need erratication. They are far too dangerous to society as a whole to ignore.

Furthermore, the concept of "humane" treatment or "validation" of heinous criminals as humans, is absurd. When they chose to violate the basic rights of others, they forfeit any rights regarding themselves. Our society is twisted in continuing to cater to these people. If we didn't, there would certainly be less antisocial, criminal behavior. It is too easy to get away with things. Life for criminals should be hard. Not full of education options, work out rooms, game nights, socialization, family time, multiple appeals, etc. They should be suffering for the ills that they chose to cast upon society.

Juberoo

catefrances wrote:

an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

absolutely not. It leaves the decent people as the majority. It leaves people who choose to behave against the most basic good with no recourse.

Juberoo

don't gimme no wrote:

everyone should get parole. who the fuck are we to put anyone in a cage for life? goddamn zookeepers? no. a terrible race.

and so when a baby raper moves in next door to you will you go shake his hand an ask him to babysit for you? When a thief applys at your company for a job will you give him the keys to the safe? Becaus eby your reasoning, he shouldn't be held accountable for his choices and behaviors.

g under p

NO!....check that HELL NO!

Peace
Earle

Eliot Rosewater

Juberoo wrote:

and so when a baby raper moves in next door to you will you go shake his hand an ask him to babysit for you? When a thief applys at your company for a job will you give him the keys to the safe? Becaus eby your reasoning, he shouldn't be held accountable for his choices and behaviors.

I don't let neighbors babysit my kid. That's just silly.