should charlie manson get parole?

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

apparently, you think that killing a maniac is just as deplorable as killing an innocent person. well, we'll agree to disagree, I believe that people waive their right to live when they murder an innocent person. yeah, the innocent people in this case would still be dead whether Manson lives or dies. so it comes down to whether we'd be better off with Manson dead or alive. I'll take dead, because my perception is that he shouldn't be allowed to live after what he did.

i disagree that innocent people would be better off if manson was dead. it is enough to know that he can never again manipulate impressionable people as intimately as he's done on the past. i'm sure there are misguided people who are in contact with manson, just like there are with practically every other violent criminal within the prison system. but though i can not say with certainty that he(or anyone else for that matter) won't inspire some other misguided soul to reek havok upon society, i think his imprisonment is enough and he should remain there for the term of his natural life.
as a society i think we need to keep these people within our sights so we can look at ourselves as individuals and as a society and see exactly where it was we went wrong and where it is possible people lose track of themselves. killing them does not solve anything, though it does satiate our lust for revenge.

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

it is enough to know that he can never again manipulate impressionable people as intimately as he's done on the past.

obviously not. because we wouldn't be having this discussion if the original poster hadn't asked if Manson should be paroled. and he was obviously leaning towards the opinion that he SHOULD be paroled and even referred to him as "Charlie" like he's a good ole buddy from up the road. my opinion is that it's pretty scary when people suggest somebody as dangerous as Manson should be out running free. if he were killed 35+ years ago when he should have been, discussing whether or not he should be roaming around society would not even be happening.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

obviously not. because we wouldn't be having this discussion if the original poster hadn't asked if Manson should be paroled. and he was obviously leaning towards the opinion that he SHOULD be paroled and even referred to him as "Charlie" like he's a good ole buddy from up the road. my opinion is that it's pretty scary when people suggest somebody as dangerous as Manson should be out running free. if he were killed 35+ years ago when he should have been, discussing whether or not he should be roaming around society would not even be happening.

not so obviuosly. the original poster, though i do not know what his intention was cause i'm not a mind reader, started a discussion that has us looking into ourselves and what we deem acceptable. i am not under the impression that state sanctioned violence is the answer to anything. in fact all it does is exonerate 'law-abiding' society from any introspection at all. it deludes us into thinking we don't need to even bother trying to understand the motives and psychology behind someone like manson, because it shines a spotlight on that side of us we choose to sometimes not so successfully ignore.

Jeanie

MLC2006 wrote:

apparently, you think that killing a maniac is just as deplorable as killing an innocent person. well, we'll agree to disagree, I believe that people waive their right to live when they murder an innocent person. yeah, the innocent people in this case would still be dead whether Manson lives or dies. so it comes down to whether we'd be better off with Manson dead or alive. I'll take dead, because my perception is that he shouldn't be allowed to live after what he did.

I didn't say that killing a maniac was just as deplorable as killing an innocent person. I was trying to say that I wouldn't feel any better if I killed anyone. Period. By your own admission you said that you'd never killed anyone. Think about what that might feel like to you. You personally being responsible for killing someone else and tell me how it would solve anything? I mean really think about it. To my way of thinking death is too easy for some people anyway. In that they no longer have to think about what they've done, they would no longer have to live with their actions. Not to say that Charlie Manson living on has had any impact on him in terms of living with what he's done but if we kill him how are we any better? He's dead, his victims are still dead, we still have to live with also being killers, no one learns anything. I'm not saying that the desire to kill him hasn't crossed my mind, but after thinking about who I am and knowing how I'd feel if I did kill him or anyone else for that matter, I wouldn't want to live with knowing that I'd been directly responsible for his or anybody elses death. If you can live with that, really live with that ok. That's your call. I couldn't.

angelica

MLC2006 wrote:

how did he "misunderstand"?? is he not the judge of how he perceives something? so by your logic, there is no such thing as understanding or misunderstanding. because "understanding" would be "right" and "misunderstanding" would be "wrong", which are things that cannot exist, correct? maybe by the way YOU perceive things, he's misunderstanding. but I think he's understanding it just fine.

Uphold and glorify ignorance, and then use your "justifications" to "excuse" and "rationalize" making degrading judgments. It represents the point about society and Charles Manson exactly.

Your opinion of something does not define it. The actuality of something defines it.

Jeanie

Considering that Juberoo is not a "he" that's one small misunderstanding I can clear up right now.

Interesting though, that if we are misunderstanding that then there may be other things we are misunderstanding as well.

Jeanie

MLC2006 wrote:

obviously not. because we wouldn't be having this discussion if the original poster hadn't asked if Manson should be paroled. and he was obviously leaning towards the opinion that he SHOULD be paroled and even referred to him as "Charlie" like he's a good ole buddy from up the road. my opinion is that it's pretty scary when people suggest somebody as dangerous as Manson should be out running free. if he were killed 35+ years ago when he should have been, discussing whether or not he should be roaming around society would not even be happening.

Ok. I see your point. But if he had been killed 35+ years ago what's not to say that he didn't become even more powerful than he is now in his death?
What's not to say that he wouldn't have achieved some cult icon type status by now and be even more of a martyr? And even more dangerous as one?

MLC2006

Jeanie wrote:

Ok. I see your point. But if he had been killed 35+ years ago what's not to say that he didn't become even more powerful than he is now in his death?
What's not to say that he wouldn't have achieved some cult icon type status by now and be even more of a martyr? And even more dangerous as one?

he's already attained cult icon status and has had it for many decades now.

as for your previous response, who said that we could not study what made him tick whether he was alive or dead? afterall, what's important is what happened BEFORE he killed. you act as though we have obtained this wealth of insight into a killer's mind by having him around for nearly 4 decades, and we haven't. every parole hearing and interview he's had, all we get is that same maniacal horseshit that he's been spewing all along.

he had a shitty upbringing, turned into a petty criminal, saw openings into something MORE, came up with some delusional ideas, brainwashed some kids into doing what he wanted, had them kill for him. now what more do you need to understand and study about that. what Ahnimus has basically said is that we should all blame ourselves for Manson's shitty upbringing and prevent this from happening again. well guess what, EVERYBODY had shitty upbringings in some way, shape, or form. so no, there's nothing that can really be done to prevent maniacs from doing such things. so it then comes down to did he fully know and understand what he was doing, or was he insane? the evidence points to him knowing full well what he was doing.

as for how would I feel if I killed somebody. well, I don't know because I never have. I imagine if I killed someone while protecting myself or other innocent people, I'd feel just fine after the initial shock wore off. if I killed an INNOCENT person, even by accident, I imagine I would feel very bad about it and probably be scarred the rest of my life. If I flipped the switch on Manson, I probably wouldn't feel much at all other than "hey, I killed Charles Manson".

MLC2006

Jeanie wrote:

Considering that Juberoo is not a "he" that's one small misunderstanding I can clear up right now.

Interesting though, that if we are misunderstanding that then there may be other things we are misunderstanding as well.

you must not live in the bizarro universe that others around here (not naming any names) live in. you see, in the bizarro world, there is no such thing as sex and gender. so a male can be a female and vice versa. so Juberoo can be he or she or however else we perceive Juberoo. in fact, Juberoo may in fact be God.

melodious

MLC2006 wrote:

I imagine if I killed someone while protecting myself or other innocent people, I'd feel just fine after the initial shock wore off. if I killed an INNOCENT person, even by accident, I imagine I would feel very bad about it and probably be scarred the rest of my life. If I flipped the switch on Manson, I probably wouldn't feel much at all other than "hey, I killed Charles Manson".

eloquently stated

MLC2006

angelica wrote:

Uphold and glorify ignorance, and then use your "justifications" to "excuse" and "rationalize" making degrading judgments. It represents the point about society and Charles Manson exactly.

Your opinion of something does not define it. The actuality of something defines it.

my opinion of something DOES define it because I'm the ultimate judge of what is and what is not. my opinion IS actuality.

"ignorance" can't be upheld if it does not exist, and it does not. also, "degrading" doesn't exist either.

your continued posts are contradicting (if contradictions are something that can actually occur) your earlier posts and the universe is folding over itself like a big black starry omelet.

MLC2006

catefrances wrote:

not so obviuosly. the original poster, though i do not know what his intention was cause i'm not a mind reader, started a discussion that has us looking into ourselves and what we deem acceptable. i am not under the impression that state sanctioned violence is the answer to anything. in fact all it does is exonerate 'law-abiding' society from any introspection at all. it deludes us into thinking we don't need to even bother trying to understand the motives and psychology behind someone like manson, because it shines a spotlight on that side of us we choose to sometimes not so successfully ignore.

again, who said that we can't try to correct societal problems without keeping a dangerous killer alive? state sanctioned violence has actually been the answer to many things over the years, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. this whole post has got us into a good long argument like most posts on this forum do. I wouldn't say it's got me "looking into" myself, because how I see murder and how I think murderers should be handled is pretty much in line with what most of society thinks.

under the law, Manson was convicted and sentenced to death. he got out of death, and now somebody's talking about releasing him back into society. THAT, to me, is what's out of whack. we're arguing here about a guy who would've been dead several decades ago were it not for a temporary stoppage of capital punishment. and now we're discussing if he should be RELEASED????

angelica

MLC2006 wrote:

"ignorance" can't be upheld if it does not exist, and it does not. also, "degrading" doesn't exist either.

When you ignore clarification, and continue to judge based on your false impression...well, you practice ignorance.

Plus, when you create your straw men and try to pin your false "assumptions" on me, it doesn't work (attributing to me assertions I did not make). That is because I am only accountable for what I do and say, and the intent with which I say it. I'm not accountable for how my words are misconstrued.

MLC2006

angelica wrote:

When you ignore clarification, and continue to judge based on your false impression...well, you practice ignorance.

Plus, when you create your straw men and try to pin your false "assumptions" on me, it doesn't work (attributing to me assertions I did not make). That is because I am only accountable for what I do and say, and the intent with which I say it. I'm not accountable for how my words are misconstrued.

first off, "clarification" can't be "ignored". because if it were clarified, it would be unignorable. and if "unignorable" isn't a word in your universe, it IS in mine. further, an impression can't be false. also, ignorance can't be practiced if it does not exist.

I have made no straw men nor pinned nothing on anyone. it does or doesn't work depending on if it does or doesn't work for you. everything you've said is based on your own perceptions, which I myself do not perceive.

Jeanie

MLC2006 wrote:

he's already attained cult icon status and has had it for many decades now.

That he has, but one has to wonder at what would happen if he was executed. I mean look at what the world has done to elevate the icon status of Elvis, Marilyn Munroe, James Dean, Jesus even. I don't know that I'd want to find out what would happen if Charles Manson was executed. I think the more we add to his story the more we enable others to find reasons to worship him and I wouldn't be surprised if in death he could have an agent, a whole Foundation/Religion/Cult dedicated purely to him and his evil behaviours. If we decided now to execute him anyway, imagine the media hype, the publicity, the opinion polls, the number of people that would become aware of him and his story that are not already aware? Seems to me, having watched humans in these situations, that killing him would only send him and his whole life into the spotlight and bring all kinds of strange and ridiculous behaviours out of the woodwork from other people. He may still be alive and he may at this point be able to "agitate" or get some attention and notiriety by doing so occassionally, but mostly he is ignored by the general population and left to rot away.

MLC2006 wrote:

as for your previous response, who said that we could not study what made him tick whether he was alive or dead? afterall, what's important is what happened BEFORE he killed. you act as though we have obtained this wealth of insight into a killer's mind by having him around for nearly 4 decades, and we haven't. every parole hearing and interview he's had, all we get is that same maniacal horseshit that he's been spewing all along.

We could do that. We could kill him and study what made him tick but would we then have to examine our own motivations for killing him? He does get to rabbit on at his parole hearings, but they do him no good do they? He aint getting out. And much as it's awful that he is able to for the families of the victims, I think we are learning how to deal with him simply by keeping him alive and making it clear that he's not getting out. I mean in all the time he's been in there has he even come close to getting out? Think we've learned something there. Oh and I'm not acting like anything. I'm just stating my view and asking questions. No need to get antsy.

MLC2006 wrote:

he had a shitty upbringing, turned into a petty criminal, saw openings into something MORE, came up with some delusional ideas, brainwashed some kids into doing what he wanted, had them kill for him. now what more do you need to understand and study about that. what Ahnimus has basically said is that we should all blame ourselves for Manson's shitty upbringing and prevent this from happening again. well guess what, EVERYBODY had shitty upbringings in some way, shape, or form. so no, there's nothing that can really be done to prevent maniacs from doing such things. so it then comes down to did he fully know and understand what he was doing, or was he insane? the evidence points to him knowing full well what he was doing.

Well I don't disagree with you here, in that we all have things in our lives that could contribute to us making good or bad choices and that some of us make bad choices and continue to do so and others do not. I think we could learn alot about why that is just for starters. I do think society has a responsibility to find out why people do bad things and learn how to prevent them from doing so and learn how to prevent others from doing so. Charlie did what Charlie did and I think we all agree that it was wrong. But if we do not attempt to learn why, what his motivations were and how to prevent it then we do need to look at our apathy and also at whether we are contributing to the horrible things that happen in society. Is our apathy or lack of understanding only perpetuating the problem? Ultimately wouldn't you prefer that this stuff just didn't happen? That there was no Charlie Manson or anyone else like him?

MLC2006 wrote:

as for how would I feel if I killed somebody. well, I don't know because I never have. I imagine if I killed someone while protecting myself or other innocent people, I'd feel just fine after the initial shock wore off. if I killed an INNOCENT person, even by accident, I imagine I would feel very bad about it and probably be scarred the rest of my life. If I flipped the switch on Manson, I probably wouldn't feel much at all other than "hey, I killed Charles Manson".

Well I don't disagree with the first part of this, in that if it was a fight to the death, my life or that of a loved one over someone who was hellbent on doing us harm, then yeah, I don't know that I'd feel fine, but I think I could live with it eventually if I killed someone in those circumstances. And yes if I killed someone innocent even by accident I'd be devestated for ever. But there is no way that I'd feel nothing if I "flipped the switch" "pushed the button" or "pulled the lever" to execute Charlie Manson or anybody else.

angelica

MLC2006 wrote:

first off, "clarification" can't be "ignored". because if it were clarified, it would be unignorable. and if "unignorable" isn't a word in your universe, it IS in mine. further, an impression can't be false. also, ignorance can't be practiced if it does not exist.

I have made no straw men nor pinned nothing on anyone. it does or doesn't work depending on if it does or doesn't work for you. everything you've said is based on your own perceptions, which I myself do not perceive.

Suit yourself.

Jeanie

MLC2006 wrote:

you must not live in the bizarro universe that others around here (not naming any names) live in. you see, in the bizarro world, there is no such thing as sex and gender. so a male can be a female and vice versa. so Juberoo can be he or she or however else we perceive Juberoo. in fact, Juberoo may in fact be God.

I have no idea if my universe if bizarro or not. I'm quite sure I have thoughts and ideas and opinions that other people would consider bizarre. Just as I find this in other people. But I do know that Juberoo is not in fact god in my world because no one is.
I was just attempting to help by clarifying. Would you prefer I didn't bother? (and there is no sarcasm or nastiness attached to that statement. It is simply a statement.)

Jeanie

MLC2006 wrote:

again, who said that we can't try to correct societal problems without keeping a dangerous killer alive? state sanctioned violence has actually been the answer to many things over the years, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. this whole post has got us into a good long argument like most posts on this forum do. I wouldn't say it's got me "looking into" myself, because how I see murder and how I think murderers should be handled is pretty much in line with what most of society thinks.

under the law, Manson was convicted and sentenced to death. he got out of death, and now somebody's talking about releasing him back into society. THAT, to me, is what's out of whack. we're arguing here about a guy who would've been dead several decades ago were it not for a temporary stoppage of capital punishment. and now we're discussing if he should be RELEASED????

Just a quick question, are you referring to America having the death penalty with that statement regarding how your thoughts are pretty much in line with what most of society thinks? Because we don't have it here.

catefrances

MLC2006 wrote:

again, who said that we can't try to correct societal problems without keeping a dangerous killer alive? state sanctioned violence has actually been the answer to many things over the years, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. this whole post has got us into a good long argument like most posts on this forum do. I wouldn't say it's got me "looking into" myself, because how I see murder and how I think murderers should be handled is pretty much in line with what most of society thinks.

under the law, Manson was convicted and sentenced to death. he got out of death, and now somebody's talking about releasing him back into society. THAT, to me, is what's out of whack. we're arguing here about a guy who would've been dead several decades ago were it not for a temporary stoppage of capital punishment. and now we're discussing if he should be RELEASED????

please tell me what state sanctioned violence has been the answer to?

hey, i agree manson should never be released and anyone who thinks he should perhaps should go spend time with him. i don't think he is misunderstood. i think he is a very dangerous individual and i am more than pleased to have him separated from society.

Eliot Rosewater

jsaso wrote:

well...facts:
-manson is crazy - he DIDNT KILL nobody, he told his freinds to do it
and they listened
-he ran a gang/cult ... - he has a nazi svastika tatooted on his forhead...
-he is old now... - he stole cars - he wrote hippi music and did drugs

so...after looking at these things it seems that he got a
realy bad deal...jail for life...people that realy do kill somebody get off in 15 years...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xioCGmZVoqw

everyone should get parole. who the fuck are we to put anyone in a cage for life? goddamn zookeepers? no. a terrible race.