should charlie manson get parole?

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

It's not a question of playing an active role.

It's a question of what motivates the agent to act, and what grants the agent the basic function that it serves. 'I' cannot commit murder in my present mental state, so why should Manson be able to?

It's an issue of what 'I' is and how it is determined. Once you figure that out, you'll understand what my point is.

Here are some facts to consider:

Intellectually impoverished environments cause a decline in child IQ by approx. 3 points every year. A child raised in an intellectually impoverished environment will generally be below average intelligence and may even be rated mentally retarded by age 18. Meanwhile, their DQ (developmental quotient) at infancy may have been quite high. Intelligence, like all human traits, needs stimulation and encouragement.

Emotionally impoverished environments have similar effects and traumatic experiences can result in impairment of emotional ability.

Stereotypes affect human performance.

Most property crimes are the direct result of class inequality.

Without an operational frontal brain region, especially the orbital-frontal lobe, a human has difficulty inhibiting primitive desires. The frontal brain region can be damaged by physical force, chemical consumption, lack of oxygenation to the brain, strokes, tumors, intercerebral hemorrhaging and may not develop properly in environments lacking proper stimulation.

It is an undeniable fact, that childhood environment plays a major role on the neural development of the child. Yes, the child is an agent in their environment, however, the effects of genetics and environment have begun shaping the "agent" prior to the agents awareness or contribution to it's environment. The "agent" has already been determined by antecedent variables.

Now let's take a look at Manson's childhood:



But as I said, Manson should not be released. He has the stability he needs in prison, we can't offer that to him, it's the only place he has ever had it. He said as much himself when he requested to be kept in prison prior to the conception of the family.

"I said I can't handle the maniacs outside, let me back in."

"I understand jail so I understand myself so I can deal with that."

"My father is the jailhouse. My father is your system... I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you."

Accountability is a matter of who is accountable for the ACTions in question.

When the ACTor ACTively ACTS, the ACTor is accountable for said ACTions.

If you are interested in the psychological or sociological aspects, great--it's just removed from accountability, which is why those aspects while relevent, are not the job of the legal profession. The legal profession deals in facts, such as what is self-evident like what was ACTed out and by whom.

Skitch Patterson

Ahnimus wrote:

Why is a nut, a nut? Because it's a nut.

Did you learn that at church?

Did i learn what at church?

Ahnimus

blackredyellow wrote:

That is an exaggeration... Have you ever been around infants that were twins or other multiples? When they have lived in the same house, the same room, had same sleep schedules, same contact with the same people, they can develop drastically different personalities at an extremely early age.

Yes, it's been studied very well. Sharing a room doesn't equate to every second of their lives. They will have different experiences from the whom to death.

MLC2006

Ahnimus wrote:

It did worse.

But, I think your view is far too myopic at this point to see all the variables. You want to blame Manson.

Manson knew who to go after....truants and runaways

Manson knew how to control them.....drugs and a strict "commune" type lifestyle

Manson knew what he wanted....to start a race war before the blacks took over

Manson thought he knew how to get this race war started....by killing wealthy white people

Manson knew exactly where to send his followers to and knew which of his followers had the guts to go through with it



now, you can say that society failing a person may cause him to steal. or even mistreat his children or wife, or whatever. but I'd like to hear you link what exactly you think society did to Manson with some of the fucked up stuff he did.

he was sentenced to die. he got out of that because of a temporary stay on the death penalty. so now he's got life instead of death, and people are talking about releasing him on parole. THAT is the sickest joke. that somebody would suggest that a once death penalty should be commuted to community supervision.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Accountability is a matter of who is accountable for the ACTions in question.

When the ACTor ACTively ACTS, the ACTor is accountable for said ACTions.

If you are interested in the psychological or sociological aspects, great--it's just removed from accountability, which is why those aspects while relevent, are not the job of the legal profession. The legal profession deals in facts, such as what is self-evident like what was ACTed out and by whom.

I'm not talking about law or Manson's accountability. I'm talking about our accountability as individual contributors to society, which in-turn results in personalities and disturbances like Manson.

As I said, Manson should remain in prison because we are too infantile to deal with him, we continue to create Mansons.

Ahnimus

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Did i learn what at church?

contra-causality

Ahnimus

MLC2006 wrote:

Manson knew who to go after....truants and runaways

Manson knew how to control them.....drugs and a strict "commune" type lifestyle

Manson knew what he wanted....to start a race war before the blacks took over

Manson thought he knew how to get this race war started....by killing wealthy white people

Manson knew exactly where to send his followers to and knew which of his followers had the guts to go through with it



now, you can say that society failing a person may cause him to steal. or even mistreat his children or wife, or whatever. but I'd like to hear you link what exactly you think society did to Manson with some of the fucked up stuff he did.

he was sentenced to die. he got out of that because of a temporary stay on the death penalty. so now he's got life instead of death, and people are talking about releasing him on parole. THAT is the sickest joke. that somebody would suggest that a once death penalty should be commuted to community supervision.

Some of us don't believe in capital punishment and some of us look beyond the individual for causality.

I think you are attributing more intellect to Manson than he actually has. Much of what he knew was a result of chance. He was placed in environments where he bore whitness to dynamics of society others would never learn. Even within my small community as a child (24,000) I knew of dynamics that my siblings and my parents were completely ignorant of. It wasn't because of my superior IQ, it was because of my circumstances.

Skitch Patterson

Ahnimus wrote:

contra-causality

I havent been to church in 12 years for anything other than weddings and funerals. No Andie McDowell either.

Ahnimus

Skitch Patterson wrote:

I havent been to church in 12 years for anything other than weddings and funerals. No Andie McDowell either.

Right, well saying that Manson is the cause of himself is contradicting the law of conservation of energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not talking about law or Manson's accountability. I'm talking about our accountability as individual contributors to society, which in-turn results in personalities and disturbances like Manson.

As I said, Manson should remain in prison because we are too infantile to deal with him, we continue to create Mansons.

Oh, trust me, having been seriously downgraded and abused in this society, to the degree of having ludicrous mental illness, I'm completely aware that society has huge accountability as well. I'm very aware society is fast asleep and overlooking their accountability and paying a BIG price.

My point here is only to be very clear about the role of the "agent". For my own healing, it was only once I realized, on every level, in every interaction in my life, I agreed with and internalized the external and ugly forces that caused my downfall. I participated in my own interaction with my environment every step of the way. It was self AND other together. Each choice I made in every interaction made all the difference in the outcome. And my healing, and the change in my inner torment, and the shift from lack of power to personal empowerment, came from creating new agreements with reality. I no longer accepted and perpetuated situations that caused me pain. Charles Manson is not ready to make new agreements with reality and therefore is a dangerous criminal because he is ACTively capable of ACTing out the same patterns, as he is carrying the same mindset that ACTed dangerously and with deplorable self-entitlement in the past. I understand he's not being validated for what he has endured. And won't for a long time.

blackredyellow

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes, it's been studied very well. Sharing a room doesn't equate to every second of their lives. They will have different experiences from the whom to death.

You take a great position in this debate, because you can never be wrong....

Say I am walking down the street past a homeless person laying on the sidewalk.... If I decide to attack him, steal his money, and beat him to death, you can say that my environment and genetics made me a monster, but if I decide to help him up, buy him lunch and clean clothes, and take him to a shelter, then you can say that my environment and genetics made me a caring person... You can never be wrong.

Skitch Patterson

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, well saying that Manson is the cause of himself is contradicting the law of conservation of energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

did i say anything about him creating himself? all i mentioned was that he was a nut (with no comments as to what was behind it) and made a mention of trading places.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Oh, trust me, having been seriously downgraded and abused in this society, to the degree of having ludicrous mental illness, I'm completely aware that society has huge accountability as well. I'm very aware society is fast asleep and overlooking their accountability and paying a BIG price.

My point here is only to be very clear about the role of the "agent". For my own healing, it was only once I realized, on every level, in every interaction in my life, I agreed with and internalized the external and ugly forces that caused my downfall. I participated in my own interaction with my environment every step of the way. It was self AND other together. Each choice I made in every interaction made all the difference in the outcome. And my healing, and the change in my inner torment, and the shift from lack of power to personal empowerment, came from creating new agreements with reality. I no longer accepted and perpetuated situations that caused me pain. Charles Manson is not ready to make new agreements with reality and therefore is a dangerous criminal because he is ACTively capable of ACTing out the same patterns, as he is carrying the same mindset that ACTed dangerously and with deplorable self-entitlement in the past. I understand he's not being validated for what he has endured. And won't for a long time.

I always thought we agreed about this. You do know that some cause hightened your awareness to enable you to self-actualize. Something Manson will probably never get. Most people don't attain that level of enlightenment. In-fact they spit in it's face.

Ahnimus

blackredyellow wrote:

You take a great position in this debate, because you can never be wrong....

Say I am walking down the street past a homeless person laying on the sidewalk.... If I decide to attack him, steal his money, and beat him to death, you can say that my environment and genetics made me a monster, but if I decide to help him up, buy him lunch and clean clothes, and take him to a shelter, then you can say that my environment and genetics made me a caring person... You can never be wrong.

I will never be wrong with that view.

It's pretty well accepted that homosexuality is genetic, but even amongst monozygous twins there is only a .50 coherency in their sexuality. This is because environment plays a role, and it's no different for monozygous twins who were seperated at birth.

I mean, you really have to study things like sociology and psychology to get the idea in it's full capacity.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I always thought we agreed about this. You do know that some cause hightened your awareness to enable you to self-actualize. Something Manson will probably never get. Most people don't attain that level of enlightenment. In-fact they spit in it's face.

The problem comes in with judgment. When we judge my position in life as "better" and Charles Manson's as "worse", then we allow our own brain flaws and ego to distort reality.

I do not personally do that. I see Charles Manson's life, from conception to now as equally valid to my own. I'm just as valid and human as when I was psychiatrically hospitalized in the throes of delusions--on a few occasions. I am just as valid and human as when I have abused my boyfriends or when I created a dysfunctional family with my children. Others may not think so. I KNOW so. Objectively speaking, it is all experience. The problems come in when we add our moral judgments stemming from the duality of our human perspective--of good/bad, better/worse, etc. We split the world into acceptable and unacceptable. The only truth is what IS.

Charles Manson's life IS. I accept that with no conflict. My life IS. I accept that with no conflict. Charles Manson maintains the illness that caused him to orchestrate killing. It just is what it IS. We decide to keep in in jail in order to enable our loved ones to stay alive. It is what it is.

I spend each day creating awareness. But I always know what IS is. And the universe is in perfect balance, despite my opinion of it. It is when I decide something is "wrong" or "bad" and attempt the change it that I create more imbalance by splitting the whole into good/bad. So instead of coming from a false premise of imbalance, I seek to increase our awareness, knowing that where we are in each moment is for evolutionarily perfect reasons at all times. The Charles Mansons and Paul Bernardos are as much a valid part of our evolution as I am.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

The problem comes in with judgment. When we judge my position in life as "better" and Charles Manson's as "worse", then we allow our own brain flaws and ego to distort reality.

I do not personally do that. I see Charles Manson's life, from conception to now as equally valid to my own. I'm just as valid and human as when I was psychiatrically hospitalized in the throes of delusions--on a few occasions. I am just as valid and human as when I have abused my boyfriends or when I created a dysfunctional family with my children. Others may not think so. I KNOW so. Objectively speaking, it is all experience. The problems come in when we add our moral judgments stemming from the duality of our human perspective--of good/bad, better/worse, etc. We split the world into acceptable and unacceptable. The only truth is what IS.

Charles Manson's life IS. I accept that with no conflict. My life IS. I accept that with no conflict. Charles Manson maintains the illness that caused him to orchestrate killing. It just is what it IS. We decide to keep in in jail in order to enable our loved ones to stay alive. It is what it is.

I spend each day creating awareness. But I always know what IS is. And the universe is in perfect balance, despite my opinion of it. It is when I decide something is "wrong" or "bad" and attempt the change it that I create more imbalance by splitting the whole into good/bad. So instead of coming from a false premise of imbalance, I seek to increase our awareness, knowing that where we are in each moment is for evolutionarily perfect reasons at all times. The Charles Mansons and Paul Bernardos are as much a valid part of our evolution as I am.

I agree with you, I just say it differently. I was just saying that, that level of enlightenment (for lack of a better word), flies in the face of pride and other human emotions. So many will not accept it even when it becomes apparent to them. I don't mean to blame them or say they are any less for it, but rather, it's an unfortunate result of the universe.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I agree with you, I just say it differently. I was just saying that, that level of enlightenment (for lack of a better word), flies in the face of pride and other human emotions. So many will not accept it even when it becomes apparent to them. I don't mean to blame them or say they are any less for it, but rather, it's an unfortunate result of the universe.

I agree. Maybe twistedly, I take great solace in knowing that those who live in and practice raging ignorance are held to account in each moment, by the quality they co-create in their agreements with reality as well. While they point the finger outward and villify Charles Manson, or Saddam Hussein, or whom or whatever, they continue to reinforce their own pain...until they get the lessons from said pain and wake up.

For example, in my family, my siblings ALL liked to see me as the "crazy" one and themselves as sane. I accepted "crazy" too...and lived it. And the experience of it was so awful, I learned to change it. My siblings, however, they kept their own problems projected onto me, and therefore delayed even touching on their own issues for a longgg time. When I became obviously not only well, but vibrantly healthy, with mental awareness to match, their false reality has tumbled down forcing them unprepared to begin to search within themselves. It's all perfect, and all in it's good time. We all are called to account in each moment and we all willingly pay the price for our ignorance.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

I agree. Maybe twistedly, I take great solace in knowing that those who live in and practice raging ignorance are held to account in each moment, by the quality they co-create in their agreements with reality as well. While they point the finger outward and villify Charles Manson, or Saddam Hussein, or whom or whatever, they continue to reinforce their own pain...until they get the lessons from said pain and wake up.

For example, in my family, my siblings ALL liked to see me as the "crazy" one and themselves as sane. I accepted "crazy" too...and lived it. And the experience of it was so awful, I learned to change it. My siblings, however, they kept their own problems projected onto me, and therefore delayed even touching on their own issues for a longgg time. When I became obviously not only well, but vibrantly healthy, with mental awareness to match, their false reality has tumbled down forcing them unprepared to begin to search within themselves. It's all perfect, and all in it's good time. We all are called to account in each moment and we all willingly pay the price for our ignorance.

Sorry to go off-topic a bit. But this reminds me of a girl I am seeing. She is obese, but she has been playing competitive sports since she was 3 years old. Currently she plays 2 or 3 sports a week and works-out a few times a week. She is not getting any thinner. I attribute it to one of 11 genetic variations that account for 25% of obesity.

Anyway, since she was young, her brothers - who are younger - have always ridiculed her about her size. Her oldest brother, a rower, is very genetically fortunate and popular with girls and boys alike. He is very nasty towards her, and very self-conscious about his own looks. She has aquired some serious deficits as a result, which I am helping her to overcome.

It's just another example of this kind of thing. Ignorance.

catefrances

i think someone as homicidally persuasive as charles manson should be contained.

righteousbabe

I wouldn't want him as my neighbor.