look,growing up i used to dream about flying jets.on those long hot summer days i remember watching them fly over head and being amazed.i would watch the CONTRAIL as they flew by,i would watch it slowly DISSIPATE and fade away in less than 20 minutes or so.
NOW i watch these plane flying in cross patterns,criss crossing all day laying these thick plumes that after 20 minutes are not gone.NOOOOO,not at all,in fact they SPREAD OUT and on days of heavy spraying TOTALLY CONSUME THE SKY.now if you are going to sit here and say it's a conspiracy when the shit is going on right above your head then you are either blind or stupid.it's that simple.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
NOW i watch these plane flying in cross patterns,criss crossing all day laying these thick plumes that after 20 minutes are not gone.
It's not some big conspiracy. It's called air pollution. Did you ever stop to consider that the amount of air traffic has considerably increased in the last 20 years???
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
It's not some big conspiracy. It's called air pollution. Did you ever stop to consider that the amount of air traffic has considerably increased in the last 20 years???
obviously you have not studied this phenomenon nearly enough.
no it has nothing to do with increased air traffic,these planes are up there solely with the specific purpose of spraying these CHEM-TRAILS.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
PJ_Gurl, To my knowledge, the "official story" has been proven. Much more proven then small crackpot ideas that poke small tiny holes in a giant set of complicated facts. Its these theories that are called theories for a reason... they can't be proven.
If we reverse the laws of science and all that... and by some chance, a missile shot from a white jet flown by Dick Chaney was shot into the twin towers, where all the Muslims didn’t go to work that day, and a team of black ops commandos who live on George Bush's Crawford ranch were able to rig explosives overnight, so that it would explode faster when the one missile hit it and then the other towers and then building 7 before coming to rest in JFKs stolen brain and then that was all done again at the pentagon, and then flight 93 didn’t exist, but instead its passengers were taken to Area 51 where the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus forced them to board Alien vessels to Mars, and the hole in the ground where it supposedly crashed was made by Halliburton testing nuclear explosives...
So to answer your question... If all that happend...then... we could call all the people who believe the "official story" idiots.... and we would feel really a lot better about ourselves...
More seriously; Its your right to be disrespectful to others in America, and the speech of those who disagree with the government is protected by the government first and foremost... but it would be a better place to live if the families who lost a mom, a dad, a brother, a sister, a friend to a violent attack... didn’t have to deal with it over and over again every time some crackpot comes up with another theory...
just my 2 cents on a question that realy cannot be answered, IMO.
There are plenty of anomalies, and suspicious facts related to 9/11, which do not fall under the category of 'theory'.
Here's one: Why was America's East coast air defence ordered to stand down on 9/11 until it was too late? Why did this same air defence system fail that day for the first time that year? Was it perhaps because Dick Cheney had just been placed in charge of it?
Here's another: The government were in possession of detailed information relating to Al Quedas plans to hijack commercial airliners within the U.S and to fly them into key targets. The government did nothing with this information and then later denied having possessed it. They lied to the 9/11 commission, over and over again. Why?
Those are some nice cloud pictures there, Lou. Good work.
For a chemical to be dispersed at 30,000 feet and have any negligible impact at sea level, do you understand the concentration you would need? Or are you telling me that all the airliners come with drop tanks now?
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
i respect peoples rights to believe, and discuss their theories that 9/11 was an inside job, or whatever side they want to believe. But this forum is really becoming an awful example of hate filled judgments of anyone with a differing viewpoint.
all this "if you cant see its _______, then you are stupid" really is not reasonable debate.
Regardless of an individuals viewpoint, this constant mindset of superiority because of what you believe is similar to a religious nut thinking your soul is doomed. I really think the mods should start doling out some warnings to those (on both sides) that are saying things like this. This passive aggressive condescending bullshit is really killing any potential for reasoned debate.
in this thread alone...
"you wore a helmet on that little bus to school,didn't you."
"when the shit is going on right above your head then you are either blind or stupid.it's that simple."
"That sounds so informed"- obviously condescending.
"sorry,you're the "conspiracy theorists" and "nut jobs" for believing such nonsense.
you're a bunch of lemmings."
Along with the implication that someone is "thick as a brick".
It was better here during the days of threats, cursing and anger then this bullshit.
i respect peoples rights to believe, and discuss their theories that 9/11 was an inside job, or whatever side they want to believe. But this forum is really becoming an awful example of hate filled judgments of anyone with a differing viewpoint.
all this "if you cant see its _______, then you are stupid" really is not reasonable debate.
Regardless of an individuals viewpoint, this constant mindset of superiority because of what you believe is similar to a religious nut thinking your soul is doomed. I really think the mods should start doling out some warnings to those (on both sides) that are saying things like this. This passive aggressive condescending bullshit is really killing any potential for reasoned debate.
in this thread alone...
"you wore a helmet on that little bus to school,didn't you."
"when the shit is going on right above your head then you are either blind or stupid.it's that simple."
"That sounds so informed"- obviously condescending.
"sorry,you're the "conspiracy theorists" and "nut jobs" for believing such nonsense.
you're a bunch of lemmings."
Along with the implication that someone is "thick as a brick".
It was better here during the days of threats, cursing and anger then this bullshit.
i'll put it like this,this country is on a downward spiral into oblivion.we are a car racing toward a brick wall and all this ignorance is the fuel propelling us forward to a certain doom.
the house is on fire and people are just watching TV and talking on the phone like nothings wrong,now i can only tell you so many times in a nice way to "get out of the house" before it becomes "get your stupid ass the fuck out of here or your going to burn to death" and seeing as we are all "chained" together,I'm going down in the house too,i am suffering because you're too stupid to jump out a window.
it's now or never,we are at the threshhold of tyranny and the direction we take is going to effect many things & people for many years to come.the time for pleasant conversations is over so I'm sorry if i seem like an asshole for attacking idiots who perpetuate ignorance.the actual truth is i don't attack them for not knowing something,i attack when they tell me I'm crazy or a nut job or any of the other shit these dim-wits CALL ME.it becomes very frustrating trying to show people the light when they have been trained to embrace the darkness.
And it's never someone who is at least trying to keep an open mind.i only diss the ones who as you said "are condescending".and no i won't give up because the alternative is a future i don't want for my child or anyone else's.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
And it's never someone who is at least trying to keep an open mind.i only diss the ones who as you said "are condescending".and no i won't give up because the alternative is a future i don't want for my child or anyone else's.
do you ever get the feeling you're pissing in a river, just to watch it rise?
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
i respect peoples rights to believe, and discuss their theories that 9/11 was an inside job, or whatever side they want to believe. But this forum is really becoming an awful example of hate filled judgments of anyone with a differing viewpoint.
Anyone that can think logically....listen to the facts of the matter posed by this gentleman in this video:
What exactly causes (hundreds of tiny pieces) of shattered?! (shattered...how?) bone fragments to fly outwards hundreds of feet onto neighboring roofs? Many of these pieces of bone are as small as one sixteenth of an inch.
Anyone care to explain how this is possible in a simple passive collapse?
Here's a better picture in regards to proximity between WTC and the Deutsche Bank building (Deutsche is the building just beyond the red crane). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WTCgroundzero.jpg
I looked at your pictures and read the article but did not watch the video. Now with the distance of the towers to the DB buliding, why is it so hard to fathom that bone fragments, along with WTC dust, debris, other particles, etc. were to be found on the building's roof? Seems plausible to me. Even your picture of the trade center's collapse shows particles of numerous items being launched through the air. As to why bone fragments that you asked about. Well, if a bone fragment can be expelled from a person when they are shot, what exactly do you suspect would happen to a person when one of the largest buildings in the world in collapsing on top of them? You began your thread by addressing those of us who use logical thinking. If you were to use logical thinking in this case, and avoid videos with an agenda, you might be surprised at what you discover. I understand from another thread that you haven't watched tv in quite some time. Although, if you have replaced it with nothing but propaganda drivel that you so frequently link on this board, then I believe you are doing yourself as big a disservice as if you were taking in an episode or two of the Tyra Banks show.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
why is it so hard to fathom that bone fragments, along with WTC dust, debris, other particles, etc. were to be found on the building's roof? Seems plausible to me. Even your picture of the trade center's collapse shows particles of numerous items being launched through the air. As to why bone fragments that you asked about. Well, if a bone fragment can be expelled from a person when they are shot, what exactly do you suspect would happen to a person when one of the largest buildings in the world in collapsing on top of them?
yeah because that's what happens when buildings collapse on people,their bone fragments shoot up through the air and fly hundreds of feet away.
If you were to use logical thinking in this case, and avoid videos with an agenda, you might be surprised at what you discover.
the TRUTH is not an agenda.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
yeah because that's what happens when buildings collapse on people,their bone fragments shoot up through the air and fly hundreds of feet away.
wait,no.that's an EXPLOSION!!!
you flatter yourself
the TRUTH is not an agenda.
How many buildings have you been in, around, seen, known of, heard about, picked up on your chem-trail frequency, etc. that have collapsed on people and had bone fragments shot in the air to back up your theory/belief system about where and what exactly happens to a bone fragment when a massive structure collapses on someone? Not many, right? Now, in regards to flattering myself when it comes to logical thinking, how is it that anyone who believes nothing that the officials tell us, but believes everything that Art Bell and anyone else they can pick up on their ham radio are the ones that are in the constant state of logical thinking? *crickets* Finally, I ask you, here and now, show me any proof, any VIABLE proof (read, no truth movement) of a building anywhere near the size of the WTC's, anywhere in the world (keeping in mind that I only believe in the planets and life forms that modern science have discovered) that have collapsed on top of people, where no explosives were involved, just a simple passive collapse :rolleyes: (as the CT's enjoy describing the Twin Towers fall), where the bone fragments of all the deceased remained in a nice pile in the corner, not 100 feet away, and I will gladly listen to any and all arguments you may have, even if they involve black helicopters and area 51. Until then, take care Mulder.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
no, but your version of it certainly is. Does believing that there is some overriding conspiracy dictating every fraction of our lives, that you have insight into some secret knowledge, make you feel like the bigger man?
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
no, but your version of it certainly is. Does believing that there is some overriding conspiracy dictating every fraction of our lives, that you have insight into some secret knowledge, make you feel like the bigger man?
i really hate this mischaracterization of behavior ...
seeking the truth is not an ego driven pursuit.
just because someone is attempting to better understand the world they live in, in your opinion, seems to turn them in to some sort of self-worshiping eogist or narcissist...
Your comment is an attempt to deride someone for the admirable trait of the pursuit of knowledge.
Perhaps that pursuit is headed down the right path, and perhaps it isn't ... but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying motivation is simply to arrive at what the individual perceives as the truth.
You make it sound like the pursuit of these "conspiracies" is part of some personal agenda of self-aggrandizement; and yet you equally seem to dismiss the criminal agenda which our administration is allegedly (and alleged by far more than just "naive conspiracy theorists") carying out.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You make it sound like the pursuit of these "conspiracies" is part of some personal agenda of self-aggrandizement; and yet you equally seem to dismiss the criminal agenda which our administration is allegedly (and alleged by far more than just "naive conspiracy theorists") carying out.
you should really read up on the psychology of conspiracies. It's fascinating.
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
i'll put it like this,this country is on a downward spiral into oblivion.we are a car racing toward a brick wall and all this ignorance is the fuel propelling us forward to a certain doom.
the house is on fire and people are just watching TV and talking on the phone like nothings wrong,now i can only tell you so many times in a nice way to "get out of the house" before it becomes "get your stupid ass the fuck out of here or your going to burn to death" and seeing as we are all "chained" together,I'm going down in the house too,i am suffering because you're too stupid to jump out a window.
it's now or never,we are at the threshhold of tyranny and the direction we take is going to effect many things & people for many years to come.the time for pleasant conversations is over so I'm sorry if i seem like an asshole for attacking idiots who perpetuate ignorance.the actual truth is i don't attack them for not knowing something,i attack when they tell me I'm crazy or a nut job or any of the other shit these dim-wits CALL ME.it becomes very frustrating trying to show people the light when they have been trained to embrace the darkness.
And it's never someone who is at least trying to keep an open mind.i only diss the ones who as you said "are condescending".and no i won't give up because the alternative is a future i don't want for my child or anyone else's.
Way to prove me wrong. You essentially just proved everything i was talking about. You feel as though people that dont see things your way are ignorent or blind, or whatever... When really its all perception and opinion. You cant prove your claims anymore than they can... That doesnt mean either of you are stupid or ignorant. Them calling you crazy and a nut job is just as bad... but if you're calling people stupid or ignorant in retaliation, isnt that just as bad?
You are not showing anyone "the light". You are not here to save anyones soul. You are a person, on a message board that should be discussing thoughts, and possibly providing information and a viewpoint. Your mindset of "showing the light" like i said, comes off as a religious zealot who thinks all people who dont believe what they do, are damned to an eternity in hell.
And you discuss an open mind. You know how many people here have an "open mind?" Id say 2. Total. I dont who they are, but im sure they exist. Just because you believe an alternative theory doesnt mean your mind is open. I dont think its really fair to point out others not having an Open Mind when you think anyone who thinks differently than you is "in the darkness."
I do prefer it now to when you could get banned for basically anything.
I agree that bannings were a bit over the top. Obviously.
However, I think there is something to being able to call someone an asshole, say you want to kick their ass, and move on. A certain level of frustration release i think led to better debate in a lot of cases. Instead, this forum is now being overrun with passive aggressive attacks in nearly every post on peoples intelligence and in some cases, integrity. I've said some nasty things in the past to many posters, and sometimes still feel the desire to.. but im okay with the people ive been pissed off at.... and i think vice versa. But now its... "Its not my fault you are not smart enough to understand" and shit like that.
a little anger can liven up a debate... where as what goes on now just kills it.
you should really read up on the psychology of conspiracies. It's fascinating.
At the suggestion of my father, i actually DID do just that.
Here is all i am saying God ...
It is my opinion that for the average joe trying to make sense of 911 and of our government and it's actions (or lack there of) ...
for that average person, the primary motivation for investigating these conspiracies is rooted in the second and fifth steps of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ...
namely, the Need for Safety (2nd step) and the Need for Self-Actualisation (5th, top step) ...
You seem to want to believe that the primary motivator is only the Need for Esteem (4th step) ... and while i can agree that for some this IS a motivator ... particularly for those who make this their business (ie. Alex Jones) ...
... for your average garden variety conspiracy theory proponent, the prime motivation is to better understand the world around them so as to make them more secure by at least understanding their surroundings, and then also that through this pursuit they grow as a person and bring themselves in to the light of information they would not otherwise have pursued.
I know that, for myself at least, 911 in particular has motivated me in to researching areas of public policy, political science, governmental theory, tax law, and US history that i would NEVER ... and i mean NEVER ... have undertaken if I had not been piqued in my interest by such a "catylstic" event ...
and i just don't see that need as one being based in Esteem ... what esteem have I personally gotten out of this? Shit, the only places i espouse my beliefs are
a. to one lone friend who believes the same, and is active in the process of "going crazy" along side me
b. to my parents, whom are genuinely concerned for my mental health. particularly my father who as i say suggested just as you did ...
and
c. here, where most of the board's readers seem to indicate that i AM crazy.
So how could i POSSIBLY be motivated by the Need For Esteem? If anything i have LOST all credibility and esteem that i may have had due to such pursuits.
No,
the simple truth is that certain information that i have come across has made me think twice about the world i live in, and i choose to now spend time focusing on things that others seemingly do not look much in to ...
How many who call me crazy have truly bothered to research things like The Creation Of The Federal Reserve and the Presidents and Congressman who have cursed it ... or The Income Tax and the hundreds\thousands of people who are now able to unite over the internet and have all concluded that it IS NOT a law that taxes YOU ... or the one we love on this board so much ... 911 ... which is really just about as up in the air as it could be ...
911, like the Federal Tax Code is an incredibly complicated matter. Just like the Tax Protestors (Tax Honesty Movement) there are countless people in the 911 movement who, while they share the same gut feeling that things aren't as we are told, differ (much like members of the same political party) on the particulars of such matters.
But to discourage discussion about these topics in general just because one has a sense that the topic itself is crazy, or because a particular constituent of the movement has demonstrated themself to be descreditable, is disingenious.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You make it sound like the pursuit of these "conspiracies" is part of some personal agenda of self-aggrandizement; and yet you equally seem to dismiss the criminal agenda which our administration is allegedly (and alleged by far more than just "naive conspiracy theorists") carying out.
This, I believe is where you are wrong. If 9/11 turns out to be an inside job, set up by our government, whoever goes to prove this and show that is the case would be the second coming for most conspiracy theorists. I firmly believe that their goal is to debunk something, anything, that has any doubts present at any level (JFK, Aliens, Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, etc.) to be recognized as the one that finally does it. The one that finally proves about the grassy knoll, or ARea 51, or 9/11. Trouble is, no one's done it yet. No matter the technology, the thousands of minds that work on a constant level of debunkery, the tireless efforts put forth have never come through on a major conspiracy. Somtimes events are just what they are, tragic. Just because there are unanswered questions on a controversial subject, does not mean that their is an underlying meaning. To the conspiracy theorists I say, keep on keepin' on. The truth is out there.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
So how could i POSSIBLY be motivated by the Need For Esteem? If anything i have LOST all credibility and esteem that i may have had due to such pursuits.
But esteem can be both internal and external, and while you may be looked upon by the outside world as "crazy," your self-esteem is incredibly high. That's the way most theorists work. "I don't care what the rest of the world thinks, I KNOW I'M NOT CRAZY."
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
Here's a better picture in regards to proximity between WTC and the Deutsche Bank building (Deutsche is the building just beyond the red crane). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WTCgroundzero.jpg
I looked at your pictures and read the article but did not watch the video. Now with the distance of the towers to the DB buliding, why is it so hard to fathom that bone fragments, along with WTC dust, debris, other particles, etc. were to be found on the building's roof? Seems plausible to me. Even your picture of the trade center's collapse shows particles of numerous items being launched through the air. As to why bone fragments that you asked about. Well, if a bone fragment can be expelled from a person when they are shot, what exactly do you suspect would happen to a person when one of the largest buildings in the world in collapsing on top of them? You began your thread by addressing those of us who use logical thinking. If you were to use logical thinking in this case, and avoid videos with an agenda, you might be surprised at what you discover. I understand from another thread that you haven't watched tv in quite some time. Although, if you have replaced it with nothing but propaganda drivel that you so frequently link on this board, then I believe you are doing yourself as big a disservice as if you were taking in an episode or two of the Tyra Banks show.
Being shot by a fast moving projectile is not a good analogy, namely because of the speeds involved. I just don't see a building vaporizing like that head to toe and nonstop and very (very) close to the speed of naturally falling with gravity. A lot of the building which was in 100% condition below would would protest upwards just a little don't you think? Especially the north tower which was hit at the top. That's a lot of building to plow through without stopping. A whole lot.
I guess some people think the towers are just waiting to come down all the time, and you just have to flick them and whoosh...down they come top to bottom like dominoes, quick as pie.
I find this pretty interesting, as no one to date, has come up with a valid reason for it happening. Nobody. So it kinda amazes me when people pretend they do. There are hypotheses, but no solid proof of why.
It's concerning that some think some think nothing of it, and act so casually like it's just absolutely normal because they heard it on TV (i.e. suggested as to why), but really haven't put a lot of thought into it otherwise.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I guess some people think the towers are just waiting to come down all the time, and you just have to flick them and whoosh...down they come top to bottom like dominoes.
Of all the forces currently understood (gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces), gravity is actually one of the weakest forces.
"If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
—Dorothy Parker
you should really read up on the psychology of conspiracies. It's fascinating.
Have you done any reading on propaganda?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Of all the forces currently understood (gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces), gravity is actually one of the weakest forces.
I know that, but how exactly are you applying it here?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Being shot by a fast moving projectile is not a good analogy, namely because of the speeds involved. I just don't see a building vaporizing like that head to toe and nonstop and very (very) close to the speed of naturally falling with gravity. A lot of the building which was in 100% condition below would would protest upwards just a little don't you think? Especially the south tower which was hit at the top. That's a lot of building to plow through without stopping. A whole lot.
I guess some people think the towers are just waiting to come down all the time, and you just have to flick them and whoosh...down they come top to bottom like dominoes, quick as pie.
I find this pretty interesting, as no one to date, has come up with a valid reason for it happening. Nobody. So it kinda amazes me when people pretend they do. There are hypotheses, but no solid proof of why.
It's concerning that some think some think nothing of it, and act so casually like it's just absolutely normal because the TV says so.
WOW! You take issue with my bullet analogy, but then liken two large aircrafts hitting the WTC's at intense speeds to a "flick" which I guess led to the "passive collapse", right? The proof of why they collapsed is there. T'is not a hypotheses, except to those who choose not to believe it.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
his/her point was that with conspiracy; there is nobody responsable. the evidence shows that it happened as we saw it. conspiracy says it didn't. if the evidence pointed to bush; the conspiracy would say he's not smart enough and is only the scapegoat. if det wire or piece of blasting cap was found pointing to implosion; the conspiracy would be that it was planted to cover up the truth.
conspiracy theorists don't look at evidence. in their minds; they believe they know the truth so evidence that doesn't fit their belief; is manufactured evidence. conspiracy theorists also need a conspiracy to fulfill that need. they have a need to disagree with what is accepted. if you believed it was an implosion and everyone else believed you; you would then feel that something else happened.
conspiracy theorists suffer from a psycological condition. since you wouldn't believe this; he/she directed you to do the research yourself. your response was typical and straight to the defensive blaming yet another conspiracy.
WOW! You take issue with my bullet analogy, but then liken two large aircrafts hitting the WTC's at intense speeds to a "flick" which I guess led to the "passive collapse", right? The proof of why they collapsed is there. T'is not a hypotheses, except to those who choose not to believe it.
Oh, ok so you're saying the planes caused all the bone fragments to shoot out?
I'm saying the buildings didn't fall at projectile speeds.
The proof just isn't there. It's not a solid case by any means. You do realize that right?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
yes it does. Ever heard of the Jet Stream???
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
look,growing up i used to dream about flying jets.on those long hot summer days i remember watching them fly over head and being amazed.i would watch the CONTRAIL as they flew by,i would watch it slowly DISSIPATE and fade away in less than 20 minutes or so.
NOW i watch these plane flying in cross patterns,criss crossing all day laying these thick plumes that after 20 minutes are not gone.NOOOOO,not at all,in fact they SPREAD OUT and on days of heavy spraying TOTALLY CONSUME THE SKY.now if you are going to sit here and say it's a conspiracy when the shit is going on right above your head then you are either blind or stupid.it's that simple.
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
It's not some big conspiracy. It's called air pollution. Did you ever stop to consider that the amount of air traffic has considerably increased in the last 20 years???
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
obviously you have not studied this phenomenon nearly enough.
no it has nothing to do with increased air traffic,these planes are up there solely with the specific purpose of spraying these CHEM-TRAILS.
http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
this link is all you need to start you education.
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
There are plenty of anomalies, and suspicious facts related to 9/11, which do not fall under the category of 'theory'.
Here's one: Why was America's East coast air defence ordered to stand down on 9/11 until it was too late? Why did this same air defence system fail that day for the first time that year? Was it perhaps because Dick Cheney had just been placed in charge of it?
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pilger_on_standdown.htm
Here's another: The government were in possession of detailed information relating to Al Quedas plans to hijack commercial airliners within the U.S and to fly them into key targets. The government did nothing with this information and then later denied having possessed it. They lied to the 9/11 commission, over and over again. Why?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney08022004.html
Those are some nice cloud pictures there, Lou. Good work.
For a chemical to be dispersed at 30,000 feet and have any negligible impact at sea level, do you understand the concentration you would need? Or are you telling me that all the airliners come with drop tanks now?
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
all this "if you cant see its _______, then you are stupid" really is not reasonable debate.
Regardless of an individuals viewpoint, this constant mindset of superiority because of what you believe is similar to a religious nut thinking your soul is doomed. I really think the mods should start doling out some warnings to those (on both sides) that are saying things like this. This passive aggressive condescending bullshit is really killing any potential for reasoned debate.
in this thread alone...
"you wore a helmet on that little bus to school,didn't you."
"when the shit is going on right above your head then you are either blind or stupid.it's that simple."
"That sounds so informed"- obviously condescending.
"sorry,you're the "conspiracy theorists" and "nut jobs" for believing such nonsense.
you're a bunch of lemmings."
Along with the implication that someone is "thick as a brick".
It was better here during the days of threats, cursing and anger then this bullshit.
i'll put it like this,this country is on a downward spiral into oblivion.we are a car racing toward a brick wall and all this ignorance is the fuel propelling us forward to a certain doom.
the house is on fire and people are just watching TV and talking on the phone like nothings wrong,now i can only tell you so many times in a nice way to "get out of the house" before it becomes "get your stupid ass the fuck out of here or your going to burn to death" and seeing as we are all "chained" together,I'm going down in the house too,i am suffering because you're too stupid to jump out a window.
it's now or never,we are at the threshhold of tyranny and the direction we take is going to effect many things & people for many years to come.the time for pleasant conversations is over so I'm sorry if i seem like an asshole for attacking idiots who perpetuate ignorance.the actual truth is i don't attack them for not knowing something,i attack when they tell me I'm crazy or a nut job or any of the other shit these dim-wits CALL ME.it becomes very frustrating trying to show people the light when they have been trained to embrace the darkness.
And it's never someone who is at least trying to keep an open mind.i only diss the ones who as you said "are condescending".and no i won't give up because the alternative is a future i don't want for my child or anyone else's.
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
do you ever get the feeling you're pissing in a river, just to watch it rise?
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
So much for...
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=212754
I do prefer it now to when you could get banned for basically anything.
It's a lesson learned from Abbie Hoffman and the way through Jon Stewart: The best way to discredit someone is through humor.
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
Here's a better picture in regards to proximity between WTC and the Deutsche Bank building (Deutsche is the building just beyond the red crane).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WTCgroundzero.jpg
I looked at your pictures and read the article but did not watch the video. Now with the distance of the towers to the DB buliding, why is it so hard to fathom that bone fragments, along with WTC dust, debris, other particles, etc. were to be found on the building's roof? Seems plausible to me. Even your picture of the trade center's collapse shows particles of numerous items being launched through the air. As to why bone fragments that you asked about. Well, if a bone fragment can be expelled from a person when they are shot, what exactly do you suspect would happen to a person when one of the largest buildings in the world in collapsing on top of them? You began your thread by addressing those of us who use logical thinking. If you were to use logical thinking in this case, and avoid videos with an agenda, you might be surprised at what you discover. I understand from another thread that you haven't watched tv in quite some time. Although, if you have replaced it with nothing but propaganda drivel that you so frequently link on this board, then I believe you are doing yourself as big a disservice as if you were taking in an episode or two of the Tyra Banks show.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
yeah because that's what happens when buildings collapse on people,their bone fragments shoot up through the air and fly hundreds of feet away.
wait,no.that's an EXPLOSION!!!
you flatter yourself
the TRUTH is not an agenda.
"I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
Emiliano Zapata
How many buildings have you been in, around, seen, known of, heard about, picked up on your chem-trail frequency, etc. that have collapsed on people and had bone fragments shot in the air to back up your theory/belief system about where and what exactly happens to a bone fragment when a massive structure collapses on someone? Not many, right? Now, in regards to flattering myself
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
no, but your version of it certainly is. Does believing that there is some overriding conspiracy dictating every fraction of our lives, that you have insight into some secret knowledge, make you feel like the bigger man?
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
i really hate this mischaracterization of behavior ...
seeking the truth is not an ego driven pursuit.
just because someone is attempting to better understand the world they live in, in your opinion, seems to turn them in to some sort of self-worshiping eogist or narcissist...
Your comment is an attempt to deride someone for the admirable trait of the pursuit of knowledge.
Perhaps that pursuit is headed down the right path, and perhaps it isn't ... but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying motivation is simply to arrive at what the individual perceives as the truth.
You make it sound like the pursuit of these "conspiracies" is part of some personal agenda of self-aggrandizement; and yet you equally seem to dismiss the criminal agenda which our administration is allegedly (and alleged by far more than just "naive conspiracy theorists") carying out.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
you should really read up on the psychology of conspiracies. It's fascinating.
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
Way to prove me wrong. You essentially just proved everything i was talking about. You feel as though people that dont see things your way are ignorent or blind, or whatever... When really its all perception and opinion. You cant prove your claims anymore than they can... That doesnt mean either of you are stupid or ignorant. Them calling you crazy and a nut job is just as bad... but if you're calling people stupid or ignorant in retaliation, isnt that just as bad?
You are not showing anyone "the light". You are not here to save anyones soul. You are a person, on a message board that should be discussing thoughts, and possibly providing information and a viewpoint. Your mindset of "showing the light" like i said, comes off as a religious zealot who thinks all people who dont believe what they do, are damned to an eternity in hell.
And you discuss an open mind. You know how many people here have an "open mind?" Id say 2. Total. I dont who they are, but im sure they exist. Just because you believe an alternative theory doesnt mean your mind is open. I dont think its really fair to point out others not having an Open Mind when you think anyone who thinks differently than you is "in the darkness."
I agree that bannings were a bit over the top. Obviously.
However, I think there is something to being able to call someone an asshole, say you want to kick their ass, and move on. A certain level of frustration release i think led to better debate in a lot of cases. Instead, this forum is now being overrun with passive aggressive attacks in nearly every post on peoples intelligence and in some cases, integrity. I've said some nasty things in the past to many posters, and sometimes still feel the desire to.. but im okay with the people ive been pissed off at.... and i think vice versa. But now its... "Its not my fault you are not smart enough to understand" and shit like that.
a little anger can liven up a debate... where as what goes on now just kills it.
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
At the suggestion of my father, i actually DID do just that.
Here is all i am saying God ...
It is my opinion that for the average joe trying to make sense of 911 and of our government and it's actions (or lack there of) ...
for that average person, the primary motivation for investigating these conspiracies is rooted in the second and fifth steps of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ...
namely, the Need for Safety (2nd step) and the Need for Self-Actualisation (5th, top step) ...
You seem to want to believe that the primary motivator is only the Need for Esteem (4th step) ... and while i can agree that for some this IS a motivator ... particularly for those who make this their business (ie. Alex Jones) ...
... for your average garden variety conspiracy theory proponent, the prime motivation is to better understand the world around them so as to make them more secure by at least understanding their surroundings, and then also that through this pursuit they grow as a person and bring themselves in to the light of information they would not otherwise have pursued.
I know that, for myself at least, 911 in particular has motivated me in to researching areas of public policy, political science, governmental theory, tax law, and US history that i would NEVER ... and i mean NEVER ... have undertaken if I had not been piqued in my interest by such a "catylstic" event ...
and i just don't see that need as one being based in Esteem ... what esteem have I personally gotten out of this? Shit, the only places i espouse my beliefs are
a. to one lone friend who believes the same, and is active in the process of "going crazy" along side me
b. to my parents, whom are genuinely concerned for my mental health. particularly my father who as i say suggested just as you did ...
and
c. here, where most of the board's readers seem to indicate that i AM crazy.
So how could i POSSIBLY be motivated by the Need For Esteem? If anything i have LOST all credibility and esteem that i may have had due to such pursuits.
No,
the simple truth is that certain information that i have come across has made me think twice about the world i live in, and i choose to now spend time focusing on things that others seemingly do not look much in to ...
How many who call me crazy have truly bothered to research things like The Creation Of The Federal Reserve and the Presidents and Congressman who have cursed it ... or The Income Tax and the hundreds\thousands of people who are now able to unite over the internet and have all concluded that it IS NOT a law that taxes YOU ... or the one we love on this board so much ... 911 ... which is really just about as up in the air as it could be ...
911, like the Federal Tax Code is an incredibly complicated matter. Just like the Tax Protestors (Tax Honesty Movement) there are countless people in the 911 movement who, while they share the same gut feeling that things aren't as we are told, differ (much like members of the same political party) on the particulars of such matters.
But to discourage discussion about these topics in general just because one has a sense that the topic itself is crazy, or because a particular constituent of the movement has demonstrated themself to be descreditable, is disingenious.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
This, I believe is where you are wrong. If 9/11 turns out to be an inside job, set up by our government, whoever goes to prove this and show that is the case would be the second coming for most conspiracy theorists. I firmly believe that their goal is to debunk something, anything, that has any doubts present at any level (JFK, Aliens, Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, etc.) to be recognized as the one that finally does it. The one that finally proves about the grassy knoll, or ARea 51, or 9/11. Trouble is, no one's done it yet. No matter the technology, the thousands of minds that work on a constant level of debunkery, the tireless efforts put forth have never come through on a major conspiracy. Somtimes events are just what they are, tragic. Just because there are unanswered questions on a controversial subject, does not mean that their is an underlying meaning. To the conspiracy theorists I say, keep on keepin' on. The truth is out there.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
But esteem can be both internal and external, and while you may be looked upon by the outside world as "crazy," your self-esteem is incredibly high. That's the way most theorists work. "I don't care what the rest of the world thinks, I KNOW I'M NOT CRAZY."
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
Being shot by a fast moving projectile is not a good analogy, namely because of the speeds involved. I just don't see a building vaporizing like that head to toe and nonstop and very (very) close to the speed of naturally falling with gravity. A lot of the building which was in 100% condition below would would protest upwards just a little don't you think? Especially the north tower which was hit at the top. That's a lot of building to plow through without stopping. A whole lot.
I guess some people think the towers are just waiting to come down all the time, and you just have to flick them and whoosh...down they come top to bottom like dominoes, quick as pie.
I find this pretty interesting, as no one to date, has come up with a valid reason for it happening. Nobody. So it kinda amazes me when people pretend they do. There are hypotheses, but no solid proof of why.
It's concerning that some think some think nothing of it, and act so casually like it's just absolutely normal because they heard it on TV (i.e. suggested as to why), but really haven't put a lot of thought into it otherwise.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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Of all the forces currently understood (gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces), gravity is actually one of the weakest forces.
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
Have you done any reading on propaganda?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I know that, but how exactly are you applying it here?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
(")_(")
Leni Riefenstahl
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
WOW! You take issue with my bullet analogy, but then liken two large aircrafts hitting the WTC's at intense speeds to a "flick" which I guess led to the "passive collapse", right? The proof of why they collapsed is there. T'is not a hypotheses, except to those who choose not to believe it.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
his/her point was that with conspiracy; there is nobody responsable. the evidence shows that it happened as we saw it. conspiracy says it didn't. if the evidence pointed to bush; the conspiracy would say he's not smart enough and is only the scapegoat. if det wire or piece of blasting cap was found pointing to implosion; the conspiracy would be that it was planted to cover up the truth.
conspiracy theorists don't look at evidence. in their minds; they believe they know the truth so evidence that doesn't fit their belief; is manufactured evidence. conspiracy theorists also need a conspiracy to fulfill that need. they have a need to disagree with what is accepted. if you believed it was an implosion and everyone else believed you; you would then feel that something else happened.
conspiracy theorists suffer from a psycological condition. since you wouldn't believe this; he/she directed you to do the research yourself. your response was typical and straight to the defensive blaming yet another conspiracy.
Oh, ok so you're saying the planes caused all the bone fragments to shoot out?
I'm saying the buildings didn't fall at projectile speeds.
The proof just isn't there. It's not a solid case by any means. You do realize that right?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")