A Rational Approach to Immigration

onelongsong

just wondering; did the mexicans give the american southwest to sam houston knowing they'd take it back anyway?

mammasan

Here is some more information on AIDs. In 2003 there where 4.2 aids related deaths for white males per 100,000 white males and .9 deaths white female deaths per 100,000 white females. Hispanics males had a 5.2 ratio and hispanic females a 2.7. Again higher than whites but no where near the three times your articles refers to. Once again that article has published inaccurate or incomplete data in order to further there xenophobic agenda.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#042

mammasan

Some info on TB cases. While hispanics may have a heigher rate of TB cases within their communities they have experienced a 50% reduction in per ratio cases on TB within the the time period spanning 1993-2003. Again your artyicle will only publish half the information.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/tb/surv/surv2003/PDF/Table2.pdf

I also find something very interesting. The article you posted and the points you high lighted isn't even about showing the difference in healthcare, education, crime, and socio-economic status between immigrants and natives. You broke it down between whites and hispanics. I believe this is because adding in other native groups such as African Americans and American Indians whould have produced extremely different results and actuhally show that immigranst are doing just as well as natives if not better.

Collin

I can't wait to see Whore's reply. .

yield2me

gue_barium wrote:

I disagree with your word "inheriting". That word suggests to me that in your view that this is a Hispanic problem, and not an American one. I see it as the latter.
Last I read, America is allowing immigrants in at a rate (legally) of 900,000 per year. That's a good-sized city, and doesn't account for those getting here illegally. Every year! There is also an allotment of around 50,000 immigrants allowed under special circumstances such as political asylum.
These numbers seem absurd to me, and need to be lowered radically, IMO.

When you are talking about the total immigrants coming in to the country every year (900,000) that doesn't just include hispanics. Thats people from all over the world.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong about this not being a Hispanic problem. This immigration problem is due to Mexico and the fact that it is a terrible place for most people to live. I don't blame these people for leaving Mexico for a better life, if I was in their shoes I would do the same thing. The Mexican government needs to change before any real progress can be made on the immigration issue.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

Some info on TB cases. While hispanics may have a heigher rate of TB cases within their communities they have experienced a 50% reduction in per ratio cases on TB within the the time period spanning 1993-2003. Again your artyicle will only publish half the information.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/tb/surv/surv2003/PDF/Table2.pdf

I also find something very interesting. The article you posted and the points you high lighted isn't even about showing the difference in healthcare, education, crime, and socio-economic status between immigrants and natives. You broke it down between whites and hispanics. I believe this is because adding in other native groups such as African Americans and American Indians whould have produced extremely different results and actuhally show that immigranst are doing just as well as natives if not better.

an article is only as valid as the author. you mention census; but illegals don't participate in the census. if you want to believe government information you must consider the source. i also question; what other diseases are these people bringing in? when the white eye came to america the american indian was plagued with diseases the white man had immunity to. interesting point brought up.

mammasan

I just saw this little tidbit of info and it made my heart jump with glee. BarroomWhore so much for your whites are better than hispanics attitude.

However, once we control for first generation effects of immigration, the aggregate Census data shows that Cubans do much better than any other "Hispanic" group and in fact are more educated than native born Anglos. In the native born category, 56.9 percent of Cuban-Americans as opposed to 54.6 percent of Anglos were high school graduates or held GED's, while an additional 26.1 percent of Cuban-Americans as opposed to 20.6 percent Anglos were educated beyond the high school level. (Issarcharoff, 1994: 23)

It's good to be a Cuban-American.

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

an article is only as valid as the author. you mention census; but illegals don't participate in the census. if you want to believe government information you must consider the source. i also question; what other diseases are these people bringing in? when the white eye came to america the american indian was plagued with diseases the white man had immunity to. interesting point brought up.

I agree with you but if you look at the stats African Americans have the highest cases per 100,000 in both Aids and Aids related death plus in TB cases. CorporateWhore didn't incorporate any of this info into his anti-immigrant postings. Last time I check the majority of African Americans in this country are native born. If he wants to discuiss the burdon placed on the US by illegal immigration that's fine, I may even agree with him on many points. The problem I see is that he is just singling out hispanics and just illegal hispanic immigrants but hispanics as a whole and I'm not going to sit silently and have someone drag my ethnicity through the mud.

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

To me, this is the essential gist of what you are saying. The illegals come here for jobs and money. That's it. I agree with you.

I wouldn't go to their country for jobs and money if the roles were reversed, and here's why:

I prefer Americans to other cultures. I believe that America is my home. My home is more important to me than how much money I can earn from it. My home is more important to me than how many jobs it can offer my family. The reason this is my home is because I have built long-term bonds with its people, land, and culture.

The reason that they are coming here is, like you said, jobs and money. But, is that a legitimate reason to allow someone into your country? Should the desire to become an American have nothing to do with living in America? I believe immigrants should desire to become Americans and to contribute to this nation. They should want to develop long-term bonds with the people, land, and culture of this country.

Should America stop expecting that its immigrants assimilate into our way of life? I don't think so. I don't think jobs and money are good enough reasons to become an American.

You are right: the only reason I am a patriotic American is that I was born in America. But, that's an assinine statement to begin with. I am merely a product of my environment, as are all human beings. I could say the same thing for you: the only reason you are Cosmo is because you were born in an environment that was likely to produce Cosmo. Sure, you could've been something else, but you are best when you are Cosmo.

...
Everything you have stated is probably what many of the immigrants whgo make the trek over here seeking money... they are patriotic to Mexico. america is seen as merely a means to make an end.
I think the falisy that we Americans make is that we think they WANT to become Americans. Is that true? Americans that go to work in the Middle East to make 170,000 tax exempt dollars for driving a truck do not want to become Iraqi, do they? Do they want to learn the Arabic language? No. They are there for the money.
The same principle is in play here in America. People come here illeaglly to work... not necessarily to become an American Citizen. They want to make a better life for thier families... in Mexico. They are no less patriotic about their nationality and culture as we are about ours. We are not the only patriotic nation out there.
...
Again... get rid of the source and go after criminal Americans who attract them here... and the problem goes away. But, understand... solving one problem does not meand you create a dozen more.

yield2me

Cosmo wrote:

...
Everything you have stated is probably what many of the immigrants whgo make the trek over here seeking money... they are patriotic to Mexico. america is seen as merely a means to make an end.
I think the falisy that we Americans make is that we think they WANT to become Americans. Is that true? Americans that go to work in the Middle East to make 170,000 tax exempt dollars for driving a truck do not want to become Iraqi, do they? Do they want to learn the Arabic language? No. They are there for the money.
The same principle is in play here in America. People come here illeaglly to work... not necessarily to become an American Citizen. They want to make a better life for thier families... in Mexico. They are no less patriotic about their nationality and culture as we are about ours. We are not the only patriotic nation out there.
...
Again... get rid of the source and go after criminal Americans who attract them here... and the problem goes away. But, understand... solving one problem does not meand you create a dozen more.

I agree with you on the fact that most illegals don't want to be Americans. My wife teaches high school spanish in a very urban school district where about 50% of her students are illegals. They will tell you that they are only here because they can make more money (most of them work full time!) and that they love Mexico. They also tell her that they don't consider themselves Americans, so you're right about that.

What you're wrong about is the statement you made on "going after the criminal Americans who attract them here." This will not solve the problem because they will risk coming over here whether or not they have a secured job lined up. The conditions in Mexico are so bad that it is worth the risk of coming over and trying to find a job. That will not change. I do agree that we need to be tougher on these people that are hiring and exploiting these people but it won't stop the flow of illegals over the boarder. The only way you stop it is to make Mexico a better place to live. This starts with change in their government, and until that happens there will be no change.

Cosmo

yield2me wrote:

I agree with you on the fact that most illegals don't want to be Americans. My wife teaches high school spanish in a very urban school district where about 50% of her students are illegals. They will tell you that they are only here because they can make more money (most of them work full time!) and that they love Mexico. They also tell her that they don't consider themselves Americans, so you're right about that.

What you're wrong about is the statement you made on "going after the criminal Americans who attract them here." This will not solve the problem because they will risk coming over here whether or not they have a secured job lined up. The conditions in Mexico are so bad that it is worth the risk of coming over and trying to find a job. That will not change. I do agree that we need to be tougher on these people that are hiring and exploiting these people but it won't stop the flow of illegals over the boarder. The only way you stop it is to make Mexico a better place to live. This starts with change in their government, and until that happens there will be no change.

...
I agree... fix Mexico.
You are not going to stop illegal imigration, but you can cut the numbers down by getting tough on the employers. Seize their assets to pay of the debt incurred by the illegals that everyone in complaining about. Take away the business owner's business, homes, cars, possessions and toss him in prison with the murderers and rapists if it is such a huge problem (which I don't believe it is).
But, realize that without the cheap, illegal labor... hiring Americans who will have to be covered by Health and Safety insurance and paid the minimum wage and adhere to standard work days and the costs go up. We will have to be willing to pay a hell of a lot more for the homes built by illegal laborers... a 50 dollar car wash and a 15 dollar Grand Slam breakfast at Denny's.
...
Personally... I don't think that illegal immigration is that big of an issue. I believe most are here to do what it takes to care for their families back in Mexico. I think we need to control our borders... but, let's take a humanitarian approach. Work with Mexico and set up a system to allow Mexican citizens to work here as Mexican citizens, not as American citizens. Bill Mexico for the costs when their citizens use our county services or commit crimes in America. If the Mexican system is corrupt... which it is... then we'll take over it. Set up 'Ellis Island' like processing centers that will hook up workers with employers. There has to be solutions, if we are willing to work for them.

CorporateWhore

mammasan wrote:

I'm back. Here is some more information and references.

Of the 265,100 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses in 2002, 126,000 (47.53%) were black, 61,700 (23.27%) were Hispanic, and 64,500 (24.33%) were white. It seems that there is more whites committing drug offenses than Hispanics.

Source: Harrison, Paige M. & Allen J. Beck, PhD, US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2004 (Washington, DC: US Dept. of Justice, Oct. 2005), Table 12, p. 9.

The problem with all of the stats you mentioned is that they are not ratios of each racial group. They are ratios of population. So, yes, whites are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population. But, Mexicans are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population too. What you really need to look at is whether hispanics are more likely to commit a drug offense in comparison to Whites. The fact is, based on their smaller population, that yes they are 19 times more likely. This is a ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "hispanic population." Your statistic was the ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "total population," which just doesn't make any sense if you're trying to prove that hispanics have a lower rate of drug crimes than whites.

mammasan

CorporateWhore wrote:

The problem with all of the stats you mentioned is that they are not ratios of each racial group. They are ratios of population. So, yes, whites are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population. But, Mexicans are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population too. What you really need to look at is whether hispanics are more likely to commit a drug offense in comparison to Whites. The fact is, based on their smaller population, that yes they are 19 times more likely. This is a ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "hispanic population." Your statistic was the ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "total population," which just doesn't make any sense if you're trying to prove that hispanics have a lower rate of drug crimes than whites.

What about all the other stats where I do use ratios. No comment on those. I find a crime one with ratios.

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

The problem with all of the stats you mentioned is that they are not ratios of each racial group. They are ratios of population. So, yes, whites are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population. But, Mexicans are more likely to commit a drug offense when they make up a majority of the population too. What you really need to look at is whether hispanics are more likely to commit a drug offense in comparison to Whites. The fact is, based on their smaller population, that yes they are 19 times more likely. This is a ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "hispanic population." Your statistic was the ratio of "hispanic drug convicts" divided by the "total population," which just doesn't make any sense if you're trying to prove that hispanics have a lower rate of drug crimes than whites.

...
Have you ever heard of that quote by Disraeli... "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"? Data can be interpreted in different ways... depending upon the point you are trying to make.

CorporateWhore

mammasan wrote:

Moving on to education. High School graduation percentage for whites in 78% and 52% for hispanics. Hardly the 3 time more that your article refers to.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_08.htm

the gap in college graduation rates is even closer between whites and hispanics. 57% of white college students obtain their degree within six years. 44% of hispanics accomplish the same. Take the 2003 statistics on SAT scores. The average SAT score for whites was 1053 while the average for Hispanics was 929. Just slightlky over a 100 point difference. Not much at all. So hispanics are not the uneducated crime ridden community you and like minded people would make us to be.

Here is another website that confirms my "3 times more" figure:

"The Latino youth dropout rate was more than three times greater than the 2000 non-Hispanic "white alone" dropout rate of 6.9 percent."

I looked it up on Google:

http://www.ericdigests.org/2004-3/latino.html

As for college graduate rates:

"The study, released recently by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that only 13 percent of Hispanics and 15 percent of Blacks had earned a bachelor's degree. That compared with rates of 31 percent for Whites and 62 percent for Asian Americans, based on 2000 Census data."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_3_22/ai_n13619954

This is in California; nonetheless, that is where the majority of hispanics live. I doubt the figures would be better anywhere else.

The problem is, you're looking at whether hispanics actually obtain their degrees once they've been accepted! That's disingenuous to me and everyone here, mamasan. To really understand how well hispanics are doing, we need to look at their rate of college "acceptance," not their rate of graduation after being accepted.

Don't look for figures that just happen to prove your point. Be honest with everyone.

Like I've said, I think more Cubans should come here. Your figures on Cubans are probably true, and through my own experience, I've found they are a more successful group because they actually want to be Americans; Fidel doesn't want them back home anyway. By all means, pat yourself on the back for being Cuban, I don't care...I'm just saying, most of the immigrants come from Mexico. Look at what the Mexicans have done while they've been in America. Why let any more of them in?

CorporateWhore

Cosmo wrote:

...
Have you ever heard of that quote by Disraeli... "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"? Data can be interpreted in different ways... depending upon the point you are trying to make.

Sure it can, but when data tends toward a certain point, you need to acknowledge it. It's wrong if you don't.

But yes, I know many Disraeli quotes...

mammasan

CorporateWhore wrote:

Don't look for figures that just happen to prove your point. Be honest with everyone.

Wait a minute you are questioning my honesty when your primary source was a publication started by a white supremacist. I am providing links to unbaised sources not an organization whose goal is to purify this country.

Here is a stroy I found I'm still looking for nutral sources, something you seem to be lacking.

http://www.hispaniconline.com/magazine/2006/march/features/colleges.html

Derrick

Hey,

I'm Canadian. How do I go about illegally immigrating to the US, or even Mexico? I hate our winters and after 29 years, have had enough.

If it helps, my maternal grandmother was born and died an American citizen.

Sincerely,
Derrick

mammasan

CorporateWhore wrote:

"The study, released recently by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that only 13 percent of Hispanics and 15 percent of Blacks had earned a bachelor's degree. That compared with rates of 31 percent for Whites and 62 percent for Asian Americans, based on 2000 Census data."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_3_22/ai_n13619954

This is in California; nonetheless, that is where the majority of hispanics live. I doubt the figures would be better anywhere else.

So because this is the case in California it mus be so across the country. Provide statistics to back that up.

yield2me

CorporateWhore wrote:

Here is another website that confirms my "3 times more" figure:

"The Latino youth dropout rate was more than three times greater than the 2000 non-Hispanic "white alone" dropout rate of 6.9 percent."

I looked it up on Google:

http://www.ericdigests.org/2004-3/latino.html

As for college graduate rates:

"The study, released recently by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that only 13 percent of Hispanics and 15 percent of Blacks had earned a bachelor's degree. That compared with rates of 31 percent for Whites and 62 percent for Asian Americans, based on 2000 Census data."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_3_22/ai_n13619954

This is in California; nonetheless, that is where the majority of hispanics live. I doubt the figures would be better anywhere else.

The problem is, you're looking at whether hispanics actually obtain their degrees once they've been accepted! That's disingenuous to me and everyone here, mamasan. To really understand how well hispanics are doing, we need to look at their rate of college "acceptance," not their rate of graduation after being accepted.

Don't look for figures that just happen to prove your point. Be honest with everyone.

Like I've said, I think more Cubans should come here. Your figures on Cubans are probably true, and through my own experience, I've found they are a more successful group because they actually want to be Americans; Fidel doesn't want them back home anyway. By all means, pat yourself on the back for being Cuban, I don't care...I'm just saying, most of the immigrants come from Mexico. Look at what the Mexicans have done while they've been in America. Why let any more of them in?

So what happens if we close the boarder down? Lets say we completely stop immigration from Mexico 100%. Those people will probably die in Mexico. This leads to the bigger issue and the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about and that is the fact that Mexico is fucked up! America should be putting pressure on Mexico to change things and get their economy going, provide jobs, govt assistance etc. I've said it before, the problem won't be solved or even begin to improve until Mexico gets their act together.