A Rational Approach to Immigration

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

Any patriotic American would try to make their own country better instead of moving to another country. I guess you're probably right though.

The ethical propositions being put out by some of you are wholely without merit:

If a drug dealer calls you over and asks you if you want drugs, and you say yes, which of you committed the illegal act?

Both!

If an employer offers a job to an illegal alien, and they accept, which of them committed the illegal act?

Both!

The illegal aliens are just as guilty as the employers. They know that it's illegal to enter this country and they do it anyway. It doesn't matter their motive. Does the motive matter when someone tries to obtain illegal drugs? If their mother died and they lost their job, is it less illegal for them to obtain illegal drugs? Can that be argued in court? No.

We need to recognize the actions of illegal aliens as illegal. Otherwise you're holding them to a double standard in comparison to employers.

...
There's one reason you are patriotic about America... You are an American and this is America.
...
But, let's say we're in the bizzarro world... if there were jobs available to you across the border in Mexico that yielded you 10 times what you make in your own country... and you know it is illegal... in Mexico, not America... and you can pretty much get away with it because there are plenty of Mexican employers over there who will hire you. And the only penalty you would get if caught is a free bus ride home... You can't tell me you wouldn't risk it. It seems almost idiotic for you to not try. And while in Mexico... would you forfeit your alligence to America?
And you and I agree... TWO crimes are commited here... the illegals coming over to get illegal jobs. In your example... who is the more dangerous criminal... the drug buyer or the drug dealer? Get rid of the buyer and what happens? The dealer sels to someone else. Go after the source... the dealers. If there wasn't anyone selling drugs... there wouldn't be anyone buying them. The draw is the drugs... the draw is the jobs and the money.

sponger

And that's why I always refrain from using the drug dealer analogy. I thought about using it last night, but I realized that it doesn't really apply this situation.

If there is a demand for drugs, there will always be drug dealers. That's why the war on drugs is futile. From a cause vs. effect standpoint, the drug addicts are really the cause and the drug dealer is really the effect.

In the case of immigration, the mexicans are the drug dealers and the US is the drug addict.

The US is addicted to slave labor. The mexicans deal themselves to junkie business owners.

But, it doesn't really work that way because the mexicans aren't creating the jobs.

So, if we were to truly apply the drug dealer analogy, it would mean that the US is a junkie who is growing his own drugs and then giving those drugs to the mexicans to sell back to him.

So, in the case of drugs, the junkie creates the industry. Getting rid of the junkie solves the problem.

In the case of immigration, the US creates the industry and deals the jobs. So, getting rid of the US solves the problem. That's why the two are fundamentally different.

CorporateWhore

Cosmo wrote:

the draw is the jobs and the money.

To me, this is the essential gist of what you are saying. The illegals come here for jobs and money. That's it. I agree with you.

I wouldn't go to their country for jobs and money if the roles were reversed, and here's why:

I prefer Americans to other cultures. I believe that America is my home. My home is more important to me than how much money I can earn from it. My home is more important to me than how many jobs it can offer my family. The reason this is my home is because I have built long-term bonds with its people, land, and culture.

The reason that they are coming here is, like you said, jobs and money. But, is that a legitimate reason to allow someone into your country? Should the desire to become an American have nothing to do with living in America? I believe immigrants should desire to become Americans and to contribute to this nation. They should want to develop long-term bonds with the people, land, and culture of this country.

Should America stop expecting that its immigrants assimilate into our way of life? I don't think so. I don't think jobs and money are good enough reasons to become an American.

You are right: the only reason I am a patriotic American is that I was born in America. But, that's an assinine statement to begin with. I am merely a product of my environment, as are all human beings. I could say the same thing for you: the only reason you are Cosmo is because you were born in an environment that was likely to produce Cosmo. Sure, you could've been something else, but you are best when you are Cosmo.

sponger

corporatewhore:

It sounds like you just want to keep america full of americans. I don't disagree with that. I prefer english over spanish and I definitely prefer rock n roll to mariachi music. I hate low riders and just despise the mexican culture in general.

It's just too bad US business owners don't feel the same way. US politicians don't feel that way either. They couldn't care less about the dilution of American culture. And just when people start realizing that the businesses and politicians are the cause of this dilution, those businesses and politicians hire people to start pointing the finger at illegal aliens for us.

This keeps us focused on something that will never solve the problem and will only keep US businesses continually supplied with slave labor.

But, you see, there's a reason why americans are so easily fooled. It's because they hate the mexican culture more than they hate being stabbed in the back by their own countrymen. This blinds their logic and reason. All they can think about is how there are so many mexicans here. That's where your point of view comes from.

Collin

CorporateWhore wrote:

The reason that they are coming here is, like you said, jobs and money. But, is that a legitimate reason to allow someone into your country? Should the desire to become an American have nothing to do with living in America? I believe immigrants should desire to become Americans and to contribute to this nation. They should want to develop long-term bonds with the people, land, and culture of this country.

I'd say it is, it always has been. That was and is the main reason why people come to the United States. They didn't want to be 'American', look at the Italian, Russian, Irish, Polish communities... They came here for jobs and money and some because of war. I don't think immigrants' desire to become American should have anything to do with it because history has proven that over time they do become American. The problem now is that people like you do not except these people and they feel a great hostility. If you embrace these people and their culture, they will embrace you and American culture, it's as simple as that.

mammasan

CorporateWhore wrote:

The following is an organization of facts done by American Renaissance using statistics from various scholarly studies. It notes the serious problems that we are inheriting from South and Central America. One of the most fundamental problems I noted was the failure of even second and third generation hispanics to graduate highschool at a higher rate than blacks in America. Hispanic illiteracy has only increased.

This does not mean that legal hispanics need to be kicked out of this country, though. It just means that they need to be assimilated. Still, when we consider accepting more south and central americans into this country, these are statistics that we should take into account. Note: only 33% of hispanic americans see themselves as "Americans." Sad.

http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

Major Findings of Vdare.com on American hispanics

Income and Wealth
• Per capita income of Hispanics is one half that of non-Hispanic whites, and
household net worth is less than one tenth.
• Fifty percent of Hispanic households use some form of welfare, the highest rate of any major population group.

Crime
• Hispanics are 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites; they are 4.2
times more likely to be in prison for murder, and 5.8 times more likely to be in prison for felony drug crimes.
• Young Hispanics are 19 times more likely than young whites (and slightly more likely than young blacks) to be in youth gangs.

Education
• Hispanics drop out of high school at three times the white rate and twice the black rate.
• Even third-generation Hispanics drop out of school at a higher rate than blacks and are less likely to be college graduates.
• From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44
percent.
• The average Hispanic 12th-grader reads and does math at the level of the average white 8th-grader.

Families and Health
• At 43 percent, the Hispanic illegitimacy rate is twice the white rate, and Hispanic women have abortions at 2.7 times the white rate.
• Hispanics are three times more likely than whites not to have medical insurance, and die from AIDS and tuberculosis at three times the white rate.
• In California, the cost of free medical care for illegal aliens forced 60 hospitals to close between 1993 and 2003.

Attitudes
• Only 33 percent of citizens of Hispanic origin consider themselves “Americans” first. The rest consider themselves either “Hispanic/Latino” or their former nationality first.

First question where do these statistic incorporate legal and illegal immigrants or not. I ask because illegal immigrants have a much lower success rate than legal because many opportunities are not available to them. Second, and I will have to get the link to it, but a study was done last year where hispanics ranked higher than african americans in both household income and percentage that attends college and receives their degree. Once I find the link then we can discuss that. I will agree with you that the illegal hispanic population does have a higher crime rate, higher rate of drop outs, and can be a drain on our social services. Once again though you are portraying the entire hispanic community by the actions of the minority. I'm starting to think that you have some racial issues with hispanics because you take every opportunity to portray them in a negative manner. The reason I say this is because you never seem to point out how many, maybe even a majority, of Italians or Irish or Polish concider themselves Italian-American or Irish-American. What about the Black population that considers them selves African-American. You seem to only fixate on the hispanic community. Also there is nothiong wrong with keeping a part of your culture when you come to this country. It is who you are. I was born here and I consider myself a latino before an American. My citizen status can change, my ethnic heritage can not. As far as this article it was puplished by an extremely biased source with an agenda. It seems that this organization goal is to make America a nice white judeo/christian nation.

Collin

mammasan wrote:

As far as this article it was puplished by an extremely biased source with an agenda. It seems that this organization goal is to make America a nice white judeo/christian nation.

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/amren.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=amren

mammasan

Collin wrote:

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/amren.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=amren

Thank you for that link.

mammasan

Here is some numbers that I have found. The source for this information is the US Census Bureau.

Here is the average household income per race.

Asian - $61,094
White - $50,784
Hispanic - $35,967
African American - $30,858

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/007419.html

In 2001 the average per capita income for Hispanics was $13,003. In the same year for whites it was $26,134. What the article doesn't take into consideration is the age breakdown.

White medium per capita income — Hispanic medium per capita income
Age: 15-24 – $7,931 Age: 15-24 – $10,720
25-34 – $29,013 25-34 – $19,864
35-44 – $32,267 35-44 – $21,274
45-54 – $35,134 45-54 – $20,659
55-64 – $27,679 55-64 – $16,718

If you look at this statistic you will see that my generation of hispanics, usually the first and second US born generation, is earning more than our white counterparts. It is the older hispanic generations who have a limited education and no college education that are earning less than their white counterparts. As soon as hispanics where able to eastablish themselves and start sending their children off to college we where able to make just as much and more than our white counterparts. This is something your xenophobic organization did not take into consideration.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/incperdet.html

In 1998 The New York Times published a study that showed that only 22% of Hispanics where receiving any type of welfare. That was a 9% drop from
the percentage in 1994. I know that those numbers are 9 years old, I will try to find more up to date date, but I highly doubt that in 9 years there has been a 28% increase in hispanic house receiving some type of welfare. It is almost statistacly impossible.

I am still looking for information to dismiss the other claims made by this article. Just give me some time and I will prove what bullshit this article is spewing.

farfromglorified

CorporateWhore wrote:

It just means that they need to be assimilated.

That seems strange since there was no 100% on your list.

onelongsong

sponger wrote:

I have to disagree with america having a hard time absorbing over a million immigrants per year. America welcomes them with open arms by having just as many menial labor jobs for them to fill.

This is why Bush and so many other politicians refuse to do anything about it. They know that the US economy, rather than suffering from illegal immigration, is actually dependant on it.

If the US economy were suddenly stripped of illegal labor, it would implode and leave many prominent business owners out on the street. Any economist will admit to this.

So, what happens is we begin to have entire communities made up of people who are essentially living on slave wages. And when you have entire communities living in such poverty, you are going to have crime. That is unavoidable.

But, these people will never be able to escape because their wages are being kept low as these workers have no rights. They can't unionize. They can't file for benefits. They have nothing except the few dollars per hour that their employers pay them.

Meanwhile, people focus on the immigrants themselves, and not the self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and crime that is a direct result of what is essentially slavery. This is scapegoating. Illegal immigrants and the problems surrounding their situation are being used as a scapegoat for this country's real problems such as worker exploitation and the widening gaps between social classes.

The real criminals are employers of illegal immigrants and the politicians who are in their back pockets.

if there were a mass opening of job oppertunities; the minimum wage paid (not the legislative minimum) would rise due to supply/demand. we'd stop the money going to mexico keeping it in the us; this would boost the american economy.

blackredyellow

sponger wrote:

That is, it's cheaper for America to build prison than it is to pay decent wages.

Only if the new prison compounds are built with illegal alien labor.

blackredyellow

CorporateWhore wrote:

I wouldn't go to their country for jobs and money if the roles were reversed, and here's why:

I prefer Americans to other cultures. I believe that America is my home. My home is more important to me than how much money I can earn from it. My home is more important to me than how many jobs it can offer my family. The reason this is my home is because I have built long-term bonds with its people, land, and culture.

If there were no jobs for you to work at, or ones that only paid you cents per hour, how would you support for family (if you had one)? Either your kids starve, or you get on a bus and go work on a farm in another country for what you consider A LOT of money.... can you honestly say that you would stay home and let your family suffer?

A lot of illegals come up for the farming seasons to make enough money to feed their families at home. The same things that you just said are important to them: their land, their home, their people, their culture, etc.

mammasan

I'm back. Here is some more information and references.

Of the 265,100 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses in 2002, 126,000 (47.53%) were black, 61,700 (23.27%) were Hispanic, and 64,500 (24.33%) were white. It seems that there is more whites committing drug offenses than Hispanics.

Source: Harrison, Paige M. & Allen J. Beck, PhD, US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2004 (Washington, DC: US Dept. of Justice, Oct. 2005), Table 12, p. 9.

Seems that your article has inaccurate statistics, not suprising. Also the statistic that states that Hispanics are 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites is false. The number is closer to 2.5 whioch is still high but the information the article you refer to is false.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

I couldn't find any information comparing homocide rates between Hispanics and white, but I did find this information.

45.9% of all homocides are carried out by whites. 52.1% are carried out by African-Americans and 2% is carried out by other. If the Hispanic rate was 4.2 times more likely to be in prison for murder I believe that other percentage would be higher than 2%. Here are some stats for gang related homocides. White - 54.4%, Black - 41.3%, and Other - 4.3%. Again not stats that are definetive but if Hispanics where 19 timesw more likely than whites to be in gangs than than percentage of others would be higher. I'm still researching to see if I can find more info.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

fanch75

I don't blame illegal immigrants at all for trying to come here. It's a tribute to how great our country is. They're willing to cross deserts, lakes, evade border patrol, etc, all just to come here and work. That's how great the opportunity is here compared to there. It's great to be here.

It's easy to blame illegal immigrants and say things like "they don't respect our laws" when you're not the one unable to provide b/c there is no opportunity to do so in the country you live in.

Since coming here is so attractive & understandable, we have to protect our borders and I absolutely agree that we need step up border patrol, build that fence, more camera, penalize employers (huge point there that probably won't ever happen on a large scale due to internal corruption) and on and on. No, we won't completely stop illegal immigration, but we can greatly reduce it.

mammasan

Moving on to education. High School graduation percentage for whites in 78% and 52% for hispanics. Hardly the 3 time more that your article refers to.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_08.htm

the gap in college graduation rates is even closer between whites and hispanics. 57% of white college students obtain their degree within six years. 44% of hispanics accomplish the same. Take the 2003 statistics on SAT scores. The average SAT score for whites was 1053 while the average for Hispanics was 929. Just slightlky over a 100 point difference. Not much at all. So hispanics are not the uneducated crime ridden community you and like minded people would make us to be.

Collin

I think you're doing a wonderful job here, mammasan!

mammasan

BarroomWhore Here some more stats for you.

Hispanic Business Growth Outpaces National Average
Hispanic-owned businesses grew 31 percent between 1997 and 2002—three times the national average for all businesses—the US Census Bureau reported this week. The nearly 1.6 million Hispanic-owned businesses generated nearly $222 billion in revenue, up 19 percent from 1997.

States with the fastest growth rates for Hispanic-owned firms between 1997 and 2002 included New York (57 percent), Rhode Island and Georgia (56 percent each), and Nevada and South Carolina (48 percent each).

"With Hispanic businesses among the fastest growing segments of our economy, this is a good indicator of how competitiveness is driving the American economy," Census Bureau Director Louis Kincannon said.

http://www.tnbankers.org/news/06hispanicbusinessgrowth.htm

How is that for contributing to this country.

mammasan

Every school child should know that the oldest, continuously inhabited city in the United States is St. Augustine, Florida (founded in 1565), and that Hispanic culture had a firm root in the Southeast and Southwest of what became the United States before the English arrived at Jamestown and before the Pilgrims dropped anchor in Massachusetts Bay. If, indeed, a school child is taught these facts, he or she is unlikely to be taught much more about the Hispanic contribution to American civilization, however; it's just not a part of today's classrooms and textbooks.

mammasan

I found some information concerning AIDs. I found some information on California, still looking for national stats, but Hispanics and white had the same rate of AIDs related deaths in that state in 2002.