A Rational Approach to Immigration

CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
edited January 2007 in A Moving Train
The following is an organization of facts done by American Renaissance using statistics from various scholarly studies. It notes the serious problems that we are inheriting from South and Central America. One of the most fundamental problems I noted was the failure of even second and third generation hispanics to graduate highschool at a higher rate than blacks in America. Hispanic illiteracy has only increased.

This does not mean that legal hispanics need to be kicked out of this country, though. It just means that they need to be assimilated. Still, when we consider accepting more south and central americans into this country, these are statistics that we should take into account. Note: only 33% of hispanic americans see themselves as "Americans." Sad.

http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

Major Findings of Vdare.com on American hispanics

Income and Wealth
• Per capita income of Hispanics is one half that of non-Hispanic whites, and
household net worth is less than one tenth.
• Fifty percent of Hispanic households use some form of welfare, the highest rate of any major population group.

Crime
• Hispanics are 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites; they are 4.2
times more likely to be in prison for murder, and 5.8 times more likely to be in prison for felony drug crimes.
• Young Hispanics are 19 times more likely than young whites (and slightly more likely than young blacks) to be in youth gangs.

Education
• Hispanics drop out of high school at three times the white rate and twice the black rate.
• Even third-generation Hispanics drop out of school at a higher rate than blacks and are less likely to be college graduates.
• From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44
percent.
• The average Hispanic 12th-grader reads and does math at the level of the average white 8th-grader.

Families and Health
• At 43 percent, the Hispanic illegitimacy rate is twice the white rate, and Hispanic women have abortions at 2.7 times the white rate.
• Hispanics are three times more likely than whites not to have medical insurance, and die from AIDS and tuberculosis at three times the white rate.
• In California, the cost of free medical care for illegal aliens forced 60 hospitals to close between 1993 and 2003.

Attitudes
• Only 33 percent of citizens of Hispanic origin consider themselves “Americans” first. The rest consider themselves either “Hispanic/Latino” or their former nationality first.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    I love America and I love Mexico. I'll shall build a stilthouse with two legs in each nation so I can be happy. Tacate and natural Light at the same time....ummmm.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • Rushlimbo wrote:
    I love America and I love Mexico. I'll shall build a stilthouse with two legs in each nation so I can be happy. Tacate and natural Light at the same time....ummmm.

    Hah, not when we build a wall and tear your house down.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    Hah, not when we build a wall and tear your house down.

    I will have levitation abilities installed. Or declare myself a nation and defend to the death.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    The following is an organization of facts done by American Renaissance using statistics from various scholarly studies. It notes the serious problems that we are inheriting from South and Central America. One of the most fundamental problems I noted was the failure of even second and third generation hispanics to graduate highschool at a higher rate than blacks in America. Hispanic illiteracy has only increased.

    I disagree with your word "inheriting". That word suggests to me that in your view that this is a Hispanic problem, and not an American one. I see it as the latter.
    Last I read, America is allowing immigrants in at a rate (legally) of 900,000 per year. That's a good-sized city, and doesn't account for those getting here illegally. Every year! There is also an allotment of around 50,000 immigrants allowed under special circumstances such as political asylum.
    These numbers seem absurd to me, and need to be lowered radically, IMO.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    I disagree with your word "inheriting". That word suggests to me that in your view that this is a Hispanic problem, and not an American one. I see it as the latter.
    Last I read, America is allowing immigrants in at a rate (legally) of 900,000 per year. That's a good-sized city, and doesn't account for those getting here illegally. Every year! There is also an allotment of around 50,000 immigrants allowed under special circumstances such as political asylum.
    These numbers seem absurd to me, and need to be lowered radically, IMO.

    They're facts.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    They're facts.

    You're missing the point. It's true that America has a hard time absorbing over a million immigrants per year, hence the crime and factionalization.

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  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    Rushlimbo wrote:
    Tacate and natural Light at the same time....ummmm.

    Dude, that is awesome.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    I have to disagree with america having a hard time absorbing over a million immigrants per year. America welcomes them with open arms by having just as many menial labor jobs for them to fill.

    This is why Bush and so many other politicians refuse to do anything about it. They know that the US economy, rather than suffering from illegal immigration, is actually dependant on it.

    If the US economy were suddenly stripped of illegal labor, it would implode and leave many prominent business owners out on the street. Any economist will admit to this.

    So, what happens is we begin to have entire communities made up of people who are essentially living on slave wages. And when you have entire communities living in such poverty, you are going to have crime. That is unavoidable.

    But, these people will never be able to escape because their wages are being kept low as these workers have no rights. They can't unionize. They can't file for benefits. They have nothing except the few dollars per hour that their employers pay them.

    Meanwhile, people focus on the immigrants themselves, and not the self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and crime that is a direct result of what is essentially slavery. This is scapegoating. Illegal immigrants and the problems surrounding their situation are being used as a scapegoat for this country's real problems such as worker exploitation and the widening gaps between social classes.

    The real criminals are employers of illegal immigrants and the politicians who are in their back pockets.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    If I'm a poor, uneducated Mexican who cannot get his foot in the door of the corrupt Mexican immigration office... I'm hopping that fence. And I'm guessing most americans (if placed in their shoes) would do the same thing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    sponger wrote:
    I have to disagree with america having a hard time absorbing over a million immigrants per year. America welcomes them with open arms by having just as many menial labor jobs for them to fill.

    This is why Bush and so many other politicians refuse to do anything about it. They know that the US economy, rather than suffering from illegal immigration, is actually dependant on it.

    If the US economy were suddenly stripped of illegal labor, it would implode and leave many prominent business owners out on the street. Any economist will admit to this.

    So, what happens is we begin to have entire communities made up of people who are essentially living on slave wages. And when you have entire communities living in such poverty, you are going to have crime. That is unavoidable.

    But, these people will never be able to escape because their wages are being kept low as these workers have no rights. They can't unionize. They can't file for benefits. They have nothing except the few dollars per hour that their employers pay them.

    Meanwhile, people focus on the immigrants themselves, and not the self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and crime that is a direct result of what is essentially slavery. This is scapegoating. Illegal immigrants and the problems surrounding their situation are being used as a scapegoat for this country's real problems such as worker exploitation and the widening gaps between social classes.

    The real criminals are employers of illegal immigrants and the politicians who are in their back pockets.


    I cited the 900,000 legal immigrants, primarily.

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  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    gue_barium wrote:
    I cited the 900,000 legal immigrants, primarily.

    Those statistics, however, are most likely based on the results of illegal immigration.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    sponger wrote:
    Those statistics, however, are most likely based on the results of illegal immigration.

    No, it is the legal number the USA allows itself, on paper. That's the legal cut-off point.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Cosmo wrote:
    If I'm a poor, uneducated Mexican who cannot get his foot in the door of the corrupt Mexican immigration office... I'm hopping that fence. And I'm guessing most americans (if placed in their shoes) would do the same thing.

    Any patriotic American would try to make their own country better instead of moving to another country. I guess you're probably right though.

    The ethical propositions being put out by some of you are wholely without merit:

    If a drug dealer calls you over and asks you if you want drugs, and you say yes, which of you committed the illegal act?

    Both!

    If an employer offers a job to an illegal alien, and they accept, which of them committed the illegal act?

    Both!

    The illegal aliens are just as guilty as the employers. They know that it's illegal to enter this country and they do it anyway. It doesn't matter their motive. Does the motive matter when someone tries to obtain illegal drugs? If their mother died and they lost their job, is it less illegal for them to obtain illegal drugs? Can that be argued in court? No.

    We need to recognize the actions of illegal aliens as illegal. Otherwise you're holding them to a double standard in comparison to employers.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159

    We need to recognize the actions of illegal aliens as illegal. Otherwise you're holding them to a double standard in comparison to employers.

    You don't want to get rid of illegal aliens. You just want to punish them. lol. Recognizing the illegality of their actions won't change anything. But, you're not interested in change. You're interested in being an authoritarian.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    gue_barium wrote:
    No, it is the legal number the USA allows itself, on paper. That's the legal cut-off point.

    I see. Thank you. Regardless, my point was that we do not have a hard time absorbing them. Those statistics at the beginning of this thread are not based on legal immigration. They're based on both. But, considering that most jailed people in the state of California are illegal immigrants, one would have to assume that most of those statistics are a result of illegal immigration. In which case, it is not a matter of absorption. Instead, it's a matter of acknowledging the rights to equal status as employees in the US.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    sponger wrote:
    I see. Thank you. Regardless, my point was that we do not have a hard time absorbing them. Those statistics at the beginning of this thread are not based on legal immigration. They're based on both. But, considering that most jailed people in the state of California are illegal immigrants, one would have to assume that most of those statistics are a result of illegal immigration. In which case, it is not a matter of absorption. Instead, it's a matter of acknowledging the rights to equal status as employees in the US.

    I guess the American prison builders are good American Absorbers.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    gue_barium wrote:
    I guess the American prison builders are good American Absorbers.

    Apparently so. Gov. Schwarzenegger yesterday announced a multi-billion dollar prison expansion plan. The state of california would rather build more prisons than hurt its economy by eliminating slave labor.

    That is, it's cheaper for America to build prison than it is to pay decent wages.

    So, yes, american prison builders are good absorbers.
  • sponger wrote:
    You don't want to get rid of illegal aliens. You just want to punish them. lol. Recognizing the illegality of their actions won't change anything. But, you're not interested in change. You're interested in being an authoritarian.

    No, I want them to go back to their country by taking away their jobs by fining and jailing CEOs.

    I do support authoritarianism in some respects.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    No, I want them to go back to their country by taking away their jobs by fining and jailing CEOs.

    I do support authoritarianism in some respects.

    If you take away their jobs, they will go back to their country on their own whether or not it's illegal.
  • sponger wrote:
    If you take away their jobs, they will go back to their country on their own whether or not it's illegal.

    Correct. The wall will keep them out.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Any patriotic American would try to make their own country better instead of moving to another country. I guess you're probably right though.

    The ethical propositions being put out by some of you are wholely without merit:

    If a drug dealer calls you over and asks you if you want drugs, and you say yes, which of you committed the illegal act?

    Both!

    If an employer offers a job to an illegal alien, and they accept, which of them committed the illegal act?

    Both!

    The illegal aliens are just as guilty as the employers. They know that it's illegal to enter this country and they do it anyway. It doesn't matter their motive. Does the motive matter when someone tries to obtain illegal drugs? If their mother died and they lost their job, is it less illegal for them to obtain illegal drugs? Can that be argued in court? No.

    We need to recognize the actions of illegal aliens as illegal. Otherwise you're holding them to a double standard in comparison to employers.
    ...
    There's one reason you are patriotic about America... You are an American and this is America.
    ...
    But, let's say we're in the bizzarro world... if there were jobs available to you across the border in Mexico that yielded you 10 times what you make in your own country... and you know it is illegal... in Mexico, not America... and you can pretty much get away with it because there are plenty of Mexican employers over there who will hire you. And the only penalty you would get if caught is a free bus ride home... You can't tell me you wouldn't risk it. It seems almost idiotic for you to not try. And while in Mexico... would you forfeit your alligence to America?
    And you and I agree... TWO crimes are commited here... the illegals coming over to get illegal jobs. In your example... who is the more dangerous criminal... the drug buyer or the drug dealer? Get rid of the buyer and what happens? The dealer sels to someone else. Go after the source... the dealers. If there wasn't anyone selling drugs... there wouldn't be anyone buying them. The draw is the drugs... the draw is the jobs and the money.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    And that's why I always refrain from using the drug dealer analogy. I thought about using it last night, but I realized that it doesn't really apply this situation.

    If there is a demand for drugs, there will always be drug dealers. That's why the war on drugs is futile. From a cause vs. effect standpoint, the drug addicts are really the cause and the drug dealer is really the effect.

    In the case of immigration, the mexicans are the drug dealers and the US is the drug addict.

    The US is addicted to slave labor. The mexicans deal themselves to junkie business owners.

    But, it doesn't really work that way because the mexicans aren't creating the jobs.

    So, if we were to truly apply the drug dealer analogy, it would mean that the US is a junkie who is growing his own drugs and then giving those drugs to the mexicans to sell back to him.

    So, in the case of drugs, the junkie creates the industry. Getting rid of the junkie solves the problem.

    In the case of immigration, the US creates the industry and deals the jobs. So, getting rid of the US solves the problem. That's why the two are fundamentally different.
  • Cosmo wrote:
    the draw is the jobs and the money.

    To me, this is the essential gist of what you are saying. The illegals come here for jobs and money. That's it. I agree with you.

    I wouldn't go to their country for jobs and money if the roles were reversed, and here's why:

    I prefer Americans to other cultures. I believe that America is my home. My home is more important to me than how much money I can earn from it. My home is more important to me than how many jobs it can offer my family. The reason this is my home is because I have built long-term bonds with its people, land, and culture.

    The reason that they are coming here is, like you said, jobs and money. But, is that a legitimate reason to allow someone into your country? Should the desire to become an American have nothing to do with living in America? I believe immigrants should desire to become Americans and to contribute to this nation. They should want to develop long-term bonds with the people, land, and culture of this country.

    Should America stop expecting that its immigrants assimilate into our way of life? I don't think so. I don't think jobs and money are good enough reasons to become an American.

    You are right: the only reason I am a patriotic American is that I was born in America. But, that's an assinine statement to begin with. I am merely a product of my environment, as are all human beings. I could say the same thing for you: the only reason you are Cosmo is because you were born in an environment that was likely to produce Cosmo. Sure, you could've been something else, but you are best when you are Cosmo.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    corporatewhore:

    It sounds like you just want to keep america full of americans. I don't disagree with that. I prefer english over spanish and I definitely prefer rock n roll to mariachi music. I hate low riders and just despise the mexican culture in general.

    It's just too bad US business owners don't feel the same way. US politicians don't feel that way either. They couldn't care less about the dilution of American culture. And just when people start realizing that the businesses and politicians are the cause of this dilution, those businesses and politicians hire people to start pointing the finger at illegal aliens for us.

    This keeps us focused on something that will never solve the problem and will only keep US businesses continually supplied with slave labor.

    But, you see, there's a reason why americans are so easily fooled. It's because they hate the mexican culture more than they hate being stabbed in the back by their own countrymen. This blinds their logic and reason. All they can think about is how there are so many mexicans here. That's where your point of view comes from.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    The reason that they are coming here is, like you said, jobs and money. But, is that a legitimate reason to allow someone into your country? Should the desire to become an American have nothing to do with living in America? I believe immigrants should desire to become Americans and to contribute to this nation. They should want to develop long-term bonds with the people, land, and culture of this country.

    I'd say it is, it always has been. That was and is the main reason why people come to the United States. They didn't want to be 'American', look at the Italian, Russian, Irish, Polish communities... They came here for jobs and money and some because of war. I don't think immigrants' desire to become American should have anything to do with it because history has proven that over time they do become American. The problem now is that people like you do not except these people and they feel a great hostility. If you embrace these people and their culture, they will embrace you and American culture, it's as simple as that.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    The following is an organization of facts done by American Renaissance using statistics from various scholarly studies. It notes the serious problems that we are inheriting from South and Central America. One of the most fundamental problems I noted was the failure of even second and third generation hispanics to graduate highschool at a higher rate than blacks in America. Hispanic illiteracy has only increased.

    This does not mean that legal hispanics need to be kicked out of this country, though. It just means that they need to be assimilated. Still, when we consider accepting more south and central americans into this country, these are statistics that we should take into account. Note: only 33% of hispanic americans see themselves as "Americans." Sad.

    http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

    Major Findings of Vdare.com on American hispanics

    Income and Wealth
    • Per capita income of Hispanics is one half that of non-Hispanic whites, and
    household net worth is less than one tenth.
    • Fifty percent of Hispanic households use some form of welfare, the highest rate of any major population group.

    Crime
    • Hispanics are 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites; they are 4.2
    times more likely to be in prison for murder, and 5.8 times more likely to be in prison for felony drug crimes.
    • Young Hispanics are 19 times more likely than young whites (and slightly more likely than young blacks) to be in youth gangs.

    Education
    • Hispanics drop out of high school at three times the white rate and twice the black rate.
    • Even third-generation Hispanics drop out of school at a higher rate than blacks and are less likely to be college graduates.
    • From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44
    percent.
    • The average Hispanic 12th-grader reads and does math at the level of the average white 8th-grader.

    Families and Health
    • At 43 percent, the Hispanic illegitimacy rate is twice the white rate, and Hispanic women have abortions at 2.7 times the white rate.
    • Hispanics are three times more likely than whites not to have medical insurance, and die from AIDS and tuberculosis at three times the white rate.
    • In California, the cost of free medical care for illegal aliens forced 60 hospitals to close between 1993 and 2003.

    Attitudes
    • Only 33 percent of citizens of Hispanic origin consider themselves “Americans” first. The rest consider themselves either “Hispanic/Latino” or their former nationality first.

    First question where do these statistic incorporate legal and illegal immigrants or not. I ask because illegal immigrants have a much lower success rate than legal because many opportunities are not available to them. Second, and I will have to get the link to it, but a study was done last year where hispanics ranked higher than african americans in both household income and percentage that attends college and receives their degree. Once I find the link then we can discuss that. I will agree with you that the illegal hispanic population does have a higher crime rate, higher rate of drop outs, and can be a drain on our social services. Once again though you are portraying the entire hispanic community by the actions of the minority. I'm starting to think that you have some racial issues with hispanics because you take every opportunity to portray them in a negative manner. The reason I say this is because you never seem to point out how many, maybe even a majority, of Italians or Irish or Polish concider themselves Italian-American or Irish-American. What about the Black population that considers them selves African-American. You seem to only fixate on the hispanic community. Also there is nothiong wrong with keeping a part of your culture when you come to this country. It is who you are. I was born here and I consider myself a latino before an American. My citizen status can change, my ethnic heritage can not. As far as this article it was puplished by an extremely biased source with an agenda. It seems that this organization goal is to make America a nice white judeo/christian nation.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    mammasan wrote:
    As far as this article it was puplished by an extremely biased source with an agenda. It seems that this organization goal is to make America a nice white judeo/christian nation.


    http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/amren.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=amren
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    Here is some numbers that I have found. The source for this information is the US Census Bureau.

    Here is the average household income per race.

    Asian - $61,094
    White - $50,784
    Hispanic - $35,967
    African American - $30,858

    http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/007419.html

    In 2001 the average per capita income for Hispanics was $13,003. In the same year for whites it was $26,134. What the article doesn't take into consideration is the age breakdown.

    White medium per capita income — Hispanic medium per capita income
    Age: 15-24 – $7,931 Age: 15-24 – $10,720
    25-34 – $29,013 25-34 – $19,864
    35-44 – $32,267 35-44 – $21,274
    45-54 – $35,134 45-54 – $20,659
    55-64 – $27,679 55-64 – $16,718

    If you look at this statistic you will see that my generation of hispanics, usually the first and second US born generation, is earning more than our white counterparts. It is the older hispanic generations who have a limited education and no college education that are earning less than their white counterparts. As soon as hispanics where able to eastablish themselves and start sending their children off to college we where able to make just as much and more than our white counterparts. This is something your xenophobic organization did not take into consideration.

    http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/incperdet.html

    In 1998 The New York Times published a study that showed that only 22% of Hispanics where receiving any type of welfare. That was a 9% drop from
    the percentage in 1994. I know that those numbers are 9 years old, I will try to find more up to date date, but I highly doubt that in 9 years there has been a 28% increase in hispanic house receiving some type of welfare. It is almost statistacly impossible.

    I am still looking for information to dismiss the other claims made by this article. Just give me some time and I will prove what bullshit this article is spewing.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • It just means that they need to be assimilated.

    That seems strange since there was no 100% on your list.
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