Feminism

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

Care to back that up?

Many people have lost out telling me what I can't do.

I'm not trying to threaten or challenge you.....if your human you can't..sorry..its not your fault...and we're all in the same boat. Plus you don't have any choices either...all predetermined from your experiences...and again..this is why its soo hard for people that don't belong to the power group to move ahead. Just human nature....its not wrong..it just is what it is.

angelica

callen wrote:

we can't help it..men and women...its just to what extent. Also we don't make choices anyway...they're all predetermined...hence the struggle for women and minorities to get a fair shake. As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't. As you and I can't.

You take "predetermined" to mean we don't make individual choice, and that we can't change? Interesting. I find immense power in choice and change. I focus on my personal intentions and on the process and am less focussed on an outcome of "fair" or what-have-you.

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

I'm not trying to threaten or challenge you.....

Ok. I don't really care what you're doing, short of telling me what I can't do.

if your human you can't..sorry..its not your fault...and we're all in the same boat.

If you feel that your actions are predetermined, then we are in very different boats indeed.

Plus you don't have any choices either...all predetermined from your experiences...and again..this is why its soo hard for people that don't belong to the power group to move ahead. Just human nature....its not wrong..it just is what it is.

Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter.

callen

angelica wrote:

You take "predetermined" to mean we don't make individual choice, and that we can't change? Interesting. I find immense power in choice and change. I focus on my personal intentions and on the process and am less focussed on an outcome of "fair" or what-have-you.

even go as far as to say if you had a yellow and a red shirt to "choose" from this morning...your choice was predetermined based on a past experience. And again reason I bring this up is simply to get the point across that women no matter how equal they are in experience or ability have a harder time to succeed then men. You had an interesting post referencing how women are motivated by feelings whereas men facts.....wonder affect on business's performance.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok. I don't really care what you're doing, short of telling me what I can't do.



If you feel that your actions are predetermined, then we are in very different boats indeed.



Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter.

its just uncomfortable for most to realize they really don't have much control over their actions. And we do need legistlation to help offset our inability to make the right choices..hence reason some believe we need affirmative action and rights for women. I think people are enherantly good...but we can't help ourselves. AND that's why so many people voted for George..they couldn't help it....even after he stumbled through the debates.... (-:

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

its just uncomfortable for most to realize they really don't have much control over their actions.

How could it be uncomfortable?

And we do need legistlation to help offset our inability to make the right choices..

Hehe...what is the "right choice" if choice doesn't exist? Furthermore, how could such a "choice" be "right" if morality deosn't exist, which it could not in a world where people had no ability to choose?

hence reason some believe we need affirmative action and rights for women.

Hence??? You just destroyed any reason why those things would ever arguably exist in the first place.

angelica

callen wrote:

even go as far as to say if you had a yellow and a red shirt to "choose" from this morning...your choice was predetermined based on a past experience.

Do you see that from our personal daily experience we make choices between "this" or "that"? And that these choices bring consequences that we experience, whether good, bad or indifferent? And that any sense of predetermination could not be played out were it not for our personal choice in each moment? That's high potency in my mind.

And again reason I bring this up is simply to get the point across that women no matter how equal they are in experience or ability have a harder time to succeed then men.

In patriarchical societies, yes. At the same time, men die at a younger age. Also, I know very few women who do not also uphold our patriarchical societies, based on that they live what they know, so it looks to me that we're all in this together, and by putting our heads together, we can find solutions.

You had an interesting post referencing how women are motivated by feelings whereas men facts.....wonder affect on business's performance.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

callen

angelica wrote:

Do you see that from our personal daily experience we make choices between "this" or "that"? And that these choices bring consequences that we experience, whether good, bad or indifferent? And that any sense of predetermination could not be played out were it not for our personal choice in each moment? That's high potency in my mind.

In patriarchical societies, yes. At the same time, men die at a younger age. Also, I know very few women who do not also uphold our patriarchical societies, based on that they live what they know, so it looks to me that we're all in this together, and by putting our heads together, we can find solutions.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Yes we do know the consequences and based on our experiences we will make the choice. The choice for that moment will be based on experiences from the past. We are a patriarchical society. Last sentence I was just wondering if there were two business's....creating the same thing..and one was motivated by feelings and one by facts...how would the outcomes be different....I know this is a stretch and really in another thread...but.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

How could it be uncomfortable?



Hehe...what is the "right choice" if choice doesn't exist? Furthermore, how could such a "choice" be "right" if morality deosn't exist, which it could not in a world where people had no ability to choose?



Hence??? You just destroyed any reason why those things would ever arguably exist in the first place.

morality doesn't exist....

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

morality doesn't exist....

Then there is no human action that can be "good" or "bad". Hence my earlier statement:

"Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter."

angelica

callen wrote:

Yes we do know the consequences and based on our experiences we will make the choice.

So when you make your choices, you 100% know what the consequences will be and what you will get? You know that when you step off the curb tomorrow, you may or may not get hit by a bus?

If we analyse someone's life "objectively" looking for determination we can chart it. However, that is an objective view and by its objectivity, we tune out the immense value and meaning to all the variables included. The objective view by itself cannot also chart the subjective view fully. We miss out on many details and meanings inherent to life. We then miss out on the synergy that embraces all of what can be quantified and charted.

The choice for that moment will be based on experiences from the past.

I agree it will be based on our experiences. If a made-for-tv movie is based on someone's life, that does not mean it exactly replicates their life. It is a representation of their life and not the same as being their life. A basis is not the ultimate culmination, which is why it's called the base or basis and not the culmination. Human choices is a variable that is highly potent, and without my each choice, predetermination would not work through my life. Therefore it looks like it works both ways: I can be led by determined factors, or I can lead based on determined factors. I choose.

We are a patriarchical society.

Yes, and we all contribute to the imbalances within this society in our own way. We also solve the imbalances when we first believe that we can, and seek to move in that direction doing so constructively.

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

Equality in what? The right to tell someone else what to pay you isn't equality sister.

That's a goon's attitude. There are plenty of rights that you as an employer (if you really are an employer) need to legally recognize.
http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_laws.html

Also, I find it odd that to you "there are no rights", but you get your panties knotted at the thought of your "rights" being superceded by law.

farfromglorified

gue_barium wrote:

That's a goon's attitude. There are plenty of rights that you as an employer (if you really are an employer) need to legally recognize.
http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_laws.html

Those aren't rights. Those are laws.

Also, I find it odd that to you "there are no rights", but you get your panties knotted at the thought of your "rights" being superceded by law.

I never said "there are no rights". There certainly are rights.

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

Those aren't rights. Those are laws.

Established for Rights.

And, yes you have said there is no such thing as "rights".

farfromglorified

gue_barium wrote:

Established for Rights.

You cannot "establish" rights via law. You simply establish behavioral obligations via the force of guns.

And, yes you have said there is no such thing as "rights".

No, I haven't. If there are no rights, all of my political beliefs can be tossed out the window. You're confusing me with someone else.

Everyone has an inherent right to creation and to freedom. I would never suggest otherwise. Your laws suggest otherwise.

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

You cannot "establish" rights via law. You simply establish behavioral obligations via the force of guns.



No, I haven't. If there are no rights, all of my political beliefs can be tossed out the window. You're confusing me with someone else.

Everyone has an inherent right to creation and to freedom. I would never suggest otherwise. Your laws suggest otherwise.

Semantics of a goon. Or, a lawyer. And you're no lawyer.

farfromglorified

gue_barium wrote:

Semantics of a goon. Or, a lawyer. And you're no lawyer.

Who's the one proposing telling people what to do at the point of a gun, and who's using the word goon?

CorporateWhore

gue_barium wrote:

Semantics of a goon. Or, a lawyer. And you're no lawyer.

No need to call people names. Figure out whatever the hell you believe and try to enunciate it.

jeffbr

gue_barium wrote:

And, yes you have said there is no such thing as "rights".

This is so far removed from reality -- please provide a link to FFG claiming the absence of rights. I would be shocked if such a post existed.

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

Who's the one proposing telling people what to do at the point of a gun, and who's using the word goon?

And there it is. The fact that you engage this dramatic logic shows the primitivism of your viewpoint on worker's rights. And probably a few other things.

Hence the idea 'goon attitude'.