The Rapture is not an Exit Strategy

spiral out

deadnothingbetter wrote:

nobody is condemning anybody here... as i'm sure there are religious people who do this... but let's get away from that notion. the truth is we condemn ourselves by trying to solve things through war, murder, lies, ambitions and things of that nature... it's all the human nature. we argue with each other, we all want to be right, we want to antogonize others and prove that we are the one's ahead of the other. that's all human nature. kinda like "do the evolution" it's pretty much what it seems he's talking about there. "i'm a thief. i'm a liar. there's my church i sing in the choir. why? because it's evolution(human nature)" but as i said before, if you look into it, as clear as it is the biblical doctrine does not condemn you. what it does say is that we humans allow ourselves to be condemned by each other.

But is not the old testement littered with stories of killing people because god wanted them to? I really see no difference today, every one claims war in the name of their GOD.

MakingWaves

deadnothingbetter wrote:

If you willfully and intently do something against God that's an act of your human nature taking over your will and desire. I know it sounds weird, but bear with me. In the garden of eden, Eve herself was tempted through her eyes and desires and saw that the fruit was good to eat. She then willfully and intently disobeyed God. Because of that, human nature had been corrupted. The same for Adam, he saw it and was tempted and disobeyed. He did "something bad against God" which was all due to the nature of sin. God only wanted for him to willfully and intently obey him because he didn't want to create robots, just like angels, that have no will. So, in summary, again if you do something against God it's all an act that is due to your human nature and in your human nature we are inherited with sin.

So people can do whatever they want with no consequences. It isn't our fault it is just part of our human nature. So there is no difference in God's eye between Mother Teresa and a serial killer.
Also, do you take the Bible literally?
To me it sounds like you talk in circles. In other post you say people go to hell because of sin but here you say it isn't your fault though because it is part of your human nature. If that is true how can you be held responsible for your actions?

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

Again, you go to hell because of sin, fortunately the way out is through Jesus Christ.

well if a person believes that his message is true i assume that by default he believes in his divinity. becuase that was part of his message. but i guess in some cases there are those that believe in his message but don't believe in his divinity. i really don't know how to answer that question. I truly believe that his messages were powerful. Powerful enough to change the life of someone, including mine. So if you were to follow his message I truly believe that you are on the right track, even to the point where you were to believe in him. If a person believes in Jesus, or in his messages and follows them, I believe that he already is in heaven.

that sounds like something i can agree with you on. cos ghandi gets to heaven under that one

soulsinging

Scubascott wrote:

If I may ask a personal question Connor. . . Why do you believe in god? And what concept of god do you believe in? I mean what is god as you see it? I'm just curious to hear it from a non-dogmatic perspective that doesn't subscribe to any of the organised religions.

id have a really hard time explaining that. it's pretty abstract. it's something i feel more than know, which i suppose is the definition of faith. honestly, it sounds hokey, but "the force" from star wars would be the closest definition id see... an energy that seems to run through and bind life. i just see more order than disorder in the world. matter becoming solar systems becoming oceans, ameoba, fish, animals, humans, computers. it's like there's a powerful rhythm at work... that things happen a given way when by pure chaos they should or could happen another. science describes what is happening and how, god is the reason it happens that way instead of some other way. it's not a god of heaven and hell, or a human god meddling with human affairs of morality... humans are just another small part of a vast universe of life, and the only influence my god has on human affairs is that we are happiest when trying to live in harmony with the rest of it all, rather than struggling vainly to place ourselves outside of it all.

deadnothingbetter

MakingWaves wrote:

So people can do whatever they want with no consequences. It isn't our fault it is just part of our human nature. So there is no difference in God's eye between Mother Teresa and a serial killer.
Also, do you take the Bible literally?
To me it sounds like you talk in circles. In other post you say people go to hell because of sin but here you say it isn't your fault though because it is part of your human nature. If that is true how can you be held responsible for your actions?

no, i'm not talking in circles. i think you need to be extremely patient in trying to understand this. but i understand your confusion. even while i was writing i was thinking to myself "man anyone reading this that doesn't know this will be confused". but it's worth a try.

No. People cannot do whatever they want without any consequences. You reap what you sow. If you sow by having lots of sex, you will reap children and if you're lucky enough you won't reap std's or anything like that.

and there certainly isn't a difference between Mother Teresa and a serial killer. The serial killer also needed salvation. In the mind of God, he loved the serial killer as much as he loved Mother Teresa. But he hated the actions of that serial killer and only longed for the killer not to find himself in that situation in the first place. Sadly, the serial killer was never liberated from his actions and because of that his actions brought severe consequences for him.

Have you ever seen a convict who is completely repented of the actions he committed? Have you ever seen the family of a victim who is severely hurt for what the killer did? Who's to say what is the right thing to do?

Have you experienced the pain of losing a loved one due to a violent crime? What of the convict? I've never been in any of these situations, but just imagine that. What such dilemma that would be. Forgive him? Give him the death penalty? For if someone had taken the life of the other isn't it logical to say that his consequences should also be to die? I believe with all my heart that if the convict found repentance in his heart to the point he wishes the earth would completely swallow him for the crimes he has committed, I strongly believe that there is hope for him too. And i want to believe that if a killer committed these eroneous acts I would be strong enough to forgive him. but i doubt i would. I hear most people say that they do not believe in the death penalty but when that belief comes close to home they find it very hard to forgive the one who murdered their daughter. Why?

To be honest with you, there is no difference between Hitler and I or you and Ghandi. We're all humans who have been distorted through society, anger, politics, hunger and things that are all caused by human nature. Things that we should have never been a part of.

I never said it isn't our fault. I never said that. True, we go to hell because of sin and it is our fault for choosing sin over life.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

that sounds like something i can agree with you on. cos ghandi gets to heaven under that one

well, that's fine with me. i don't got a problem with that. if ghandi made friends with jesus then good for him.

norm

soulsinging wrote:

id have a really hard time explaining that. it's pretty abstract. it's something i feel more than know, which i suppose is the definition of faith. honestly, it sounds hokey, but "the force" from star wars would be the closest definition id see... an energy that seems to run through and bind life. i just see more order than disorder in the world. matter becoming solar systems becoming oceans, ameoba, fish, animals, humans, computers. it's like there's a powerful rhythm at work... that things happen a given way when by pure chaos they should or could happen another. science describes what is happening and how, god is the reason it happens that way instead of some other way. it's not a god of heaven and hell, or a human god meddling with human affairs of morality... humans are just another small part of a vast universe of life, and the only influence my god has on human affairs is that we are happiest when trying to live in harmony with the rest of it all, rather than struggling vainly to place ourselves outside of it all.

I could never express my feelings on this subject but this is pretty good.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, that's fine with me. i don't got a problem with that. if ghandi made friends with jesus then good for him.

that would be one helluva interesting dinner party behind the pearly gates.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

that would be one helluva interesting dinner party behind the pearly gates.

just a question... if you and i were to know each other would you have raw feelings towards me after you know that i believe in what i believe?

Songburst

deadnothingbetter wrote:

To be honest with you, there is no difference between Hitler and I or you and Ghandi. We're all humans who have been distorted through society, anger, politics, hunger and things that are all caused by human nature. Things that we should have never been a part of.

I never said it isn't our fault. I never said that. True, we go to hell because of sin and it is our fault for choosing sin over life.

You better hope that you are right about this god thing because I know that I wouldn't have wanted to compare myself to Hitler and then find out I was wrong. In my opinion, all religions start with good intentions; they then become severely corrupted when they get too powerful; then they get phased out because people get disenchanted with them; then a new religion with good intentions comes along. It's a circle and people have been going around in this circle for tens of thousands of years. Christianity is no more or less valid than any other religion that has ever come and gone, but I do fret somewhat when I hear people taking these hell and angels and garden of Eden stories literally.

deadnothingbetter

Songburst wrote:

You better hope that you are right about this god thing because I know that I wouldn't have wanted to compare myself to Hitler and then find out I was wrong. In my opinion, all religions start with good intentions; they then become severely corrupted when they get too powerful; then they get phased out because people get disenchanted with them; then a new religion with good intentions comes along. It's a circle and people have been going around in this circle for tens of thousands of years. Christianity is no more or less valid than any other religion that has ever come and gone, but I do fret somewhat when I hear people taking these hell and angels and garden of Eden stories literally.

i agree with you completely... but i'm not trying to convert anybody to religion... neither christianity. i know you didn't spent most of the time reading everything i said but i did say something of christianity. i don't believe it's a religion any better than buddhism. And your feelings about people taking these stories literally, well, hey everyone has a right to believe in what they want. don't you agree? i'm only sharing this becuase people ask me. man, but i bet seeing from people's reactions, i don't think i would have very many friends if they kneew me in real life.

but the thing about hitler, is you gotta understand where i'm coming from. if you were to find yourself in the very same situation that hitler was in you would've most likely have done the same things he did. we're all humans man. no different in nature. it's all the same. so you don't have to read further into the lines on this one.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

just a question... if you and i were to know each other would you have raw feelings towards me after you know that i believe in what i believe?

they would be the same as they were before. is that what you mean by raw feelings? im not overly concerned with people's private spiritual and religious beliefs. im only bothered when they try to make my personal beliefs their business. the people that do a lot of testifying and converting kinda creep me out.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

they would be the same as they were before. is that what you mean by raw feelings? im not overly concerned with people's private spiritual and religious beliefs. im only bothered when they try to make my personal beliefs their business. the people that do a lot of testifying and converting kinda creep me out.

hey well from what i can remember, you were the one who jumped in asking the questions. i was only making comments. the thing is, i have a cousin who doesn't agree at all what i believe... i don't know why and i really can't put my head around the idea why people wouldn't want to believe. but everytime i hang out with him he's always making comments about what i believe. always making smart remarks that people also make on here. to be honest, it offends me. that's why i learned to be open to everybody, even satan worshippers (to a certaiin extent of course) that way they can be open to me. my intentions is to make friends with my conversations and hopefully they can gain some meaning of it. true, there are those who try to rub their ideas in your business. but trust me, i'm not that kind of guy.

Scubascott

soulsinging wrote:

id have a really hard time explaining that. it's pretty abstract. it's something i feel more than know, which i suppose is the definition of faith. honestly, it sounds hokey, but "the force" from star wars would be the closest definition id see... an energy that seems to run through and bind life. i just see more order than disorder in the world. matter becoming solar systems becoming oceans, ameoba, fish, animals, humans, computers. it's like there's a powerful rhythm at work... that things happen a given way when by pure chaos they should or could happen another. science describes what is happening and how, god is the reason it happens that way instead of some other way. it's not a god of heaven and hell, or a human god meddling with human affairs of morality... humans are just another small part of a vast universe of life, and the only influence my god has on human affairs is that we are happiest when trying to live in harmony with the rest of it all, rather than struggling vainly to place ourselves outside of it all.

I dig this

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

hey well from what i can remember, you were the one who jumped in asking the questions. i was only making comments. the thing is, i have a cousin who doesn't agree at all what i believe... i don't know why and i really can't put my head around the idea why people wouldn't want to believe. but everytime i hang out with him he's always making comments about what i believe. always making smart remarks that people also make on here. to be honest, it offends me. that's why i learned to be open to everybody, even satan worshippers (to a certaiin extent of course) that way they can be open to me. my intentions is to make friends with my conversations and hopefully they can gain some meaning of it. true, there are those who try to rub their ideas in your business. but trust me, i'm not that kind of guy.

you might want to look at the way you speak about these topics then, becos you DO kinda come off like that kinda guy. statements like "i cant put my head around somebody not believing like i do" is a little arrogant. and regardless of how you intend it, those kind of statements always sound condescending or pitying to other people, which makes them uncomfortable and is probably why they pick at your beliefs, cos they figure you're probably judging them. even the mention of satan worshipers (where dyou even meet them? i went to a huge public university and to this day i have still never in my life even met a satan worshiper) sounds condescending... like im willing to treat those dirty people like normal humans, even though i know they aren't. im not saying this is the way you are or the way you try to be, im saying this is probably how you are perceived based on subtle intonations of speech and your fervent faith.

that is why i jumped in asking questions of you. your initial statements came off sounding like "my beliefs are right and anyone who can't see that and doesn't agree with me is an idiot." i've taken the time to find out that isn't exactly the case, but it's still the impression some of your speech gives off. you sounded like the type of people who jump on any opportunity to start testifying about jesus and converting people. so it sounds like you both put each other on the defensive.

the atheists or agnostics who feel compelled to ridicule you for your faith are small-minded and insecure. they get an arrogant pleasure out of their perceived intellectual superiority to anyone who has faith. you are never going to be able to sway them by debate, you will always lose becos faith by its very nature operates outside of reason in the sense that they use it. you are going to have much more luck letting their insults pass, not being offended by them, and simply living the example of jesus in your actions rather than trying to defend it with your words.

soulsinging

Scubascott wrote:

I dig this

cool. anyway, i guess i discussed my concept of it... but the why is a whole other story and one im disinclined to pour onto the screen here just kinda like that ramones song... i believe in miracles

Scubascott

deadnothingbetter wrote:

... i don't know why and i really can't put my head around the idea why people wouldn't want to believe.

Here, I think, is a real crux of this matter. Do you only believe because you want to believe? Is there no more compelling reason for you to believe? I may want to believe that all people are innately good, and that all wars will end if we just work together, but I don't believe it, because what I see around me shows me that reality is much more complicated than that. Reality doesn't care what you want to believe.

deadnothingbetter

souldsinging wrote:

you might want to look at the way you speak about these topics then, becos you DO kinda come off like that kinda guy. statements like "i cant put my head around somebody not believing like i do" is a little arrogant. and regardless of how you intend it, those kind of statements always sound condescending or pitying to other people, which makes them uncomfortable and is probably why they pick at your beliefs, cos they figure you're probably judging them. even the mention of satan worshipers (where dyou even meet them? i went to a huge public university and to this day i have still never in my life even met a satan worshiper) sounds condescending... like im willing to treat those dirty people like normal humans, even though i know they aren't. im not saying this is the way you are or the way you try to be, im saying this is probably how you are perceived based on subtle intonations of speech and your fervent faith.

i had a friend in highschool who was into witch craft and all sorts of dark things. he read books like the necromander (or something like that) i didn't know this, i was always his friend, but when i knew about it, it really didn't matter to me. that's where i met a "satan worhsipper". so where's the condescending part in that??? i say "even satan worshippers" because they are the complete oppositte of my faith. i believe in god, they in satan... nevermind. the reason i speak with all this confidence is because i really believe this. i'm sorry if it seems condescending. i speak with certainty and assertiveness, we all have a right to that. i always try my best to show things in a positive side... i only want to share my thoughts. it's all. and even when i just share my thoughts, all i hear is, "shut up, because your beliefs offend me." i don't get it.

there's nothing wrong with me not being able to "wrap my mind around why you guys can't believe". cause then it should offend me for you guys to not be able to wrap your mind around my faith. i mean, can you honestly say that you could wrap your mind around why i don't believe like you do???

see, the rules always apply to both sides. i wanted to share with you a part of my faith. like in another thread about atheism, i wanted to speak about atheistic views on certain issues but all i got was them dogging my faith without me even speaking about it. i mean, i'm not complaining. my point is to prove to everyone that we're all worthy of sharing what we believe. i think i still have a right to that. cause then what shall we say of all the negative things that are being said about God? aren't they saying, "anyone who believes in God is an idiot?"

that is why i jumped in asking questions of you. your initial statements came off sounding like "my beliefs are right and anyone who can't see that and doesn't agree with me is an idiot."

in what way? i know that most people don't read the bible, hell, neither do any of my "church-going" friends. if anybody shares a part of literature, poetry or history does that mean he saying, "oh look at me i'm so smart and you're so stupid"?

i've taken the time to find out that isn't exactly the case, but it's still the impression some of your speech gives off. you sounded like the type of people who jump on any opportunity to start testifying about jesus and converting people. so it sounds like you both put each other on the defensive.

well, i'd like for people to hear about my faith. a friend of mine, who believes in the dali lama, once told me that in the buddhist religion they allow you to keep your religion but sort of try to convince you to have an open mind to their religion. i'm open to all religions. but it would be nice if people opened up just a little bit to my beliefs

the atheists or agnostics who feel compelled to ridicule you for your faith are small-minded and insecure. they get an arrogant pleasure out of their perceived intellectual superiority to anyone who has faith. you are never going to be able to sway them by debate, you will always lose becos faith by its very nature operates outside of reason in the sense that they use it. you are going to have much more luck letting their insults pass, not being offended by them, and simply living the example of jesus in your actions rather than trying to defend it with your words.

you're absolutely right on this. in fact, you've summarized my arguments i use against atheists.

deadnothingbetter

Scubascott wrote:

Here, I think, is a real crux of this matter. Do you only believe because you want to believe? Is there no more compelling reason for you to believe? I may want to believe that all people are innately good, and that all wars will end if we just work together, but I don't believe it, because what I see around me shows me that reality is much more complicated than that. Reality doesn't care what you want to believe.

you're absolutely right. in fact, i taught this once in church.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

there's nothing wrong with me not being able to "wrap my mind around why you guys can't believe". cause then it should offend me for you guys to not be able to wrap your mind around my faith. i mean, can you honestly say that you could wrap your mind around why i don't believe like you do???

yes, i can. and i do. i dont agree with it, but it is very easy for me to wrap my head around the idea that not everyone believes what i do.