The Rapture is not an Exit Strategy

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

i said 'condemned by all religions'. i didn't say by people.

oh ok

MakingWaves

deadnothingbetter wrote:

"what you do unto others you do unto me" a judgement??? explain.

Well if you do something bad against God. I think it stands to reason you would be judged for that action. If not, then what is the point.

Collin

I saw this bumper sticker today:

http://www.luxlotus.com/photos/the_low_countries/img_0179b.jpg

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

ok, good. now you're opening up a little more.

i will mention sin again. this is what is meant to be abolished. "the wages of sin is death." living in sin brings us to death and condemnation. it is not God. God doesn't condemn us. We lost our path and connection to God. like the virus i mentioned before. let me explain again. we got sick, metaphorically. we needed a healer, christ is our healer. if we do not heal, we will die, spiritually speaking. now i know i'm sort of speaking in riddles but this is exactly what is meant by it. God never sends us to hell. Hell was prepared for the devil, death and evil. God is not being a tyrant against us. He is not being a dictator. When we see the Old Testament and we think, "man, God was evil." He was only showing his hatred towards sin. God hates sin and abolishes it. In the Old Testament, men of then did not have access to this spiritual life in christ. Like you said in your other post, even before Jesus was around, what humans had access to was the Law... or actually it was only directed to the Israelites and anyone outside of the line of Israel was held bondage to the sinful nature. When we chose to live in sin this is what happens. God is not angry towards us, he is angry at sin. If we live in sin, we will go exactly where sin will go. is this making more sense?

if ghandi stayed in sin then he is where sin belongs. but our place belongs with christ, seated at the right hand of God. it's not about choosing the right or wrong religion. it's not about being good or being bad. (this was only back in the days of Israel) and it's not about religion. period. it's about choosing what we really ought to be.

so why do we need to accept jesus??? to get rid of sin.

im familiar with the concept of original sin and all that jazz. ive had extensive religious education.

this is doublespeak though... you say it's not about choosing the right religion, but then claim the only way out of sin is worshiping jesus... ie. choosing the right religion. that's a sneaky way of condemning other religions without having to actually admit to it. unless i've misread this... is accepting jesus right here on earth in real life the ONLY way out of sin and into heaven? becos if so, then dress it up all you like, you're still saying ghandi goes to hell for picking the wrong religion and not accepting jesus.

it's a total catch-22... not all non-christians inevitably go to hell, but only those who accept christ can get to heaven. you're still saying you have to be a christian to get to heaven and people who aren't go to hell. this is the absurd result where ghandi goes to hell and hitler goes to heaven, solely becos one accepts jesus on earth and the other does not, regardless of how much they sinned in life.

callen

soulsinging wrote:

it's a total catch-22... not all non-christians inevitably go to hell, but only those who accept christ can get to heaven. you're still saying you have to be a christian to get to heaven and people who aren't go to hell. this is the absurd result where ghandi goes to hell and hitler goes to heaven, solely becos one accepts jesus on earth and the other does not, regardless of how much they sinned in life.

why would god knowingly condemn 75% of his children to hell? He knows they aren't converting.....they're no innocents..as they know of Christ.

While having to wait in my car last night...I turned on local Christian station in Houston....the one God Listens to....and tried to have an open mind...really...but all I got from listening..was this is a cult...nothing more nothing less...

Scubascott

deadnothingbetter wrote:

Jesus himself said that in him there is life. The truth is I still die. Physically, my body dies, but spiritually I am alive. This is what he means. It works the same with wars. There will always be wars in this physical realm but in the spiritual realm there is peace, there is brilliance and beauty. I don't know does that make sense?

No it doesn't really make much sense to me. . . It sounds like what you're getting at is that there really isn't any hope for the 'physical realm', so might as well abandon any attempts at trying to make life better here, spend all our time praying, and just wait around to die so we can go hang out with Jesus. It really sounds like your 'exit strategy' is your faith that things will be better on the other side. Kinda like if america pulled all its troops out of Iraq now and said 'Bugger it, its too hard to fix this mess that we've made, we'll just go home and be happy and let these guys sort it out themselves'

deadnothingbetter

MakingWaves wrote:

Well if you do something bad against God. I think it stands to reason you would be judged for that action. If not, then what is the point.

If you willfully and intently do something against God that's an act of your human nature taking over your will and desire. I know it sounds weird, but bear with me. In the garden of eden, Eve herself was tempted through her eyes and desires and saw that the fruit was good to eat. She then willfully and intently disobeyed God. Because of that, human nature had been corrupted. The same for Adam, he saw it and was tempted and disobeyed. He did "something bad against God" which was all due to the nature of sin. God only wanted for him to willfully and intently obey him because he didn't want to create robots, just like angels, that have no will. So, in summary, again if you do something against God it's all an act that is due to your human nature and in your human nature we are inherited with sin.

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

If you willfully and intently do something against God that's an act of your human nature taking over your will and desire. I know it sounds weird, but bear with me. In the garden of eden, Eve herself was tempted through her eyes and desires and saw that the fruit was good to eat. She then willfully and intently disobeyed God. Because of that, human nature had been corrupted. The same for Adam, he saw it and was tempted and disobeyed. He did "something bad against God" which was all due to the nature of sin. God only wanted for him to willfully and intently obey him because he didn't want to create robots, just like angels, that have no will. So, in summary, again if you do something against God it's all an act that is due to your human nature and in your human nature we are inherited with sin.

Why is sin inherited? If my mother kills someone, that doesn't make me a murderer. How is a newborn baby tainted with sin because of something that a couple of people did thousands of years ago?

deadnothingbetter

Scubascott wrote:

No it doesn't really make much sense to me. . . It sounds like what you're getting at is that there really isn't any hope for the 'physical realm', so might as well abandon any attempts at trying to make life better here, spend all our time praying, and just wait around to die so we can go hang out with Jesus. It really sounds like your 'exit strategy' is your faith that things will be better on the other side. Kinda like if america pulled all its troops out of Iraq now and said 'Bugger it, its too hard to fix this mess that we've made, we'll just go home and be happy and let these guys sort it out themselves'

I'd really like for it to be the way that you say it. But the truth is, it doesn't, man. For years and years, we have studied, learned, analyzed, advanced, accomplished and so on and on and on and on but never has there ever been peace on earth. There is hope for the physical realm. You're not understanding me. There is hope. Just look at Jesus and the way he lived.

True. I have faith that things will be better on the other side, but I also believe in what James tells me, "faith without works is dead". NOw, don't try to convince me to go to Iraq and try and stop the war there. Cause i'm not gonna do that... i'm scared of war. I believe in doing good in this world, do all that is necessary to change our communities and donate to charity and all of that good stuff. So i'm with you there, but again, all the good deeds don't get me into heaven. Cause then we'd have think, "ok, who's done good and who's done bad? oh, but wait, you're good deeds do not recompense for the evil that you have done so we'll just measure your good deeds on a scale and see who is good enough to enter heaven" so it just doesn't work that way. At least, that's not what the bible tells me.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

im familiar with the concept of original sin and all that jazz. ive had extensive religious education.

this is doublespeak though... you say it's not about choosing the right religion, but then claim the only way out of sin is worshiping jesus... ie. choosing the right religion. that's a sneaky way of condemning other religions without having to actually admit to it. unless i've misread this... is accepting jesus right here on earth in real life the ONLY way out of sin and into heaven? becos if so, then dress it up all you like, you're still saying ghandi goes to hell for picking the wrong religion and not accepting jesus.

it's a total catch-22... not all non-christians inevitably go to hell, but only those who accept christ can get to heaven. you're still saying you have to be a christian to get to heaven and people who aren't go to hell. this is the absurd result where ghandi goes to hell and hitler goes to heaven, solely becos one accepts jesus on earth and the other does not, regardless of how much they sinned in life.

you look at it as religion because that's the only way it makes sense to you... like you said, you've had extensive religious education. i never said that all christians go to heaven... no, i never said that. in fact, i don't care if you follow christianity or not. i know i'm speaking in terms of the christian religion only because i didn't want to confuse you with my "own" idealisms that even christians argue with me. i don't profess to be a christian, i don't follow the traditions of christianity so i'm not preaching that christianity is the only true religion. heck, i haven't even gone to church for the passed year. i don't believe that. but that's irrelevant to our conversation. in fact, you could be of any religion, i don't care. just follow jesus and his examples and believe in him like the scriptures say.

"is accepting jesus right here on earth in real life the ONLY way out of sin and into heaven?" Yes, that's exactly what i am saying. This is the core of what I believe, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me." If God, being the creator of the cosmos, had an ultimate plan to make of himself a perfect being as perfect as God himself but due to the lack of our obedience had then fallen to a state of imperfection the only thing that would make sense for us to be redeemed is if God himself had formed another man as perfect as he is so that we would follow him to the state in which we originated from. This is love. Read what I just said and it all sums up to love. God is love, man. If you believe in love, why is it hard to believe in God? Why are you so fixated on the idea that this religion is false? If you truly have love, why not open up to what I am saying?

About ghandi and hitler, this is old news, man. The bottom line is let's not look at the mundaine to follow examples.. Let's just look to Jesus.

deadnothingbetter

hippiemom wrote:

Why is sin inherited? If my mother kills someone, that doesn't make me a murderer. How is a newborn baby tainted with sin because of something that a couple of people did thousands of years ago?

no! i know where you're getting to. now i don't believe that babies go to hell... Jesus himself said it. of course, if you're mother kills someone, yes, that doesn't make you a murderer but it doesn't mean that you haven't sinned. i've sinned. we've all sinned. we've all lied, cheated, and gotten angry before. by the way, did your mother kill someone??? i'm just thinking cause that was pretty random. and if she did, bummer.

but why is sin inherited? that's kind of a good question. all i know is, that i see the cause of sin everywhere i go. you do too. you just don't call it sin, you probably call it "inhumane" or something. but it all has to do with nature. dna and stuff. well, not dna, but more of a spiritual thing. but you answered it yourself, because of something that a couple of people did thousands of years ago.

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

no! i know where you're getting to. now i don't believe that babies go to hell... Jesus himself said it.

Then why is it so vitally important for some Christians to baptize babies and wash their sins away? How could a baby have sins that need washing? This is something I've never understood ... the Christian church that I was raised in didn't baptize people until they were 12 or 13, which I think is still far too young but at least it makes a little more sense to me than newborns.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

of course, if you're mother kills someone, yes, that doesn't make you a murderer but it doesn't mean that you haven't sinned.

Neither does it mean I've committed the sin of murder. Why are we stuck with the sins of people we don't even know?

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i've sinned. we've all sinned. we've all lied, cheated, and gotten angry before. by the way, did your mother kill someone??? i'm just thinking cause that was pretty random. and if she did, bummer.

No, my mother hasn't killed anyone. I chose an extreme example so that people would assume it was a hypothetical, so as not to besmirch my mother's good name. My mom is the kindest person you could ever hope to meet and rarely does anything wrong.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

but why is sin inherited? that's kind of a good question. all i know is, that i see the cause of sin everywhere i go. you do too. you just don't call it sin, you probably call it "inhumane" or something. but it all has to do with nature. dna and stuff. well, not dna, but more of a spiritual thing. but you answered it yourself, because of something that a couple of people did thousands of years ago.

You're right, I don't use the word "sin." But if I did, I'd at least want to be blamed for my own sins, not those of a couple of strangers. I've never been able to follow this line of reasoning at all.

deadnothingbetter

hippiemom wrote:

Then why is it so vitally important for some Christians to baptize babies and wash their sins away? How could a baby have sins that need washing? This is something I've never understood ... the Christian church that I was raised in didn't baptize people until they were 12 or 13, which I think is still far too young but at least it makes a little more sense to me than newborns.

you're right... i don't agree with that either. but then again, i don't believe that baptism gets you to heaven either, cause the bible doesn't say it either.

Neither does it mean I've committed the sin of murder. Why are we stuck with the sins of people we don't even know?

No, i know that.. but you have sinned.

No, my mother hasn't killed anyone. I chose an extreme example so that people would assume it was a hypothetical, so as not to besmirch my mother's good name. My mom is the kindest person you could ever hope to meet and rarely does anything wrong.

OK, good.

You're right, I don't use the word "sin." But if I did, I'd at least want to be blamed for my own sins, not those of a couple of strangers. I've never been able to follow this line of reasoning at all.

exactly, you said it yourself. you'd want to be blamed for your own sins. and it's because of what those idiots did back in the garden that you have sinned. sin is a part of your nature, there's no way out of it. even as a God-fearing person you will still sin. hell, i'm calling it on anyone that says that ghandi was perfect. like the virus mentioned. let's say sin was a virus and this virus had varying side affects. some people had symptoms of coughing, others of dizzyness and what not. nausea, headaches and on and on and on and on. the same with sin, it entered into our nature and because of that we all have different symptoms. some lie, some cheat, some steal, some kill, some have perveted sex (j/k), i thought that sounded funny. see where i'm getting at? but it's all becuase of what one mam did. romans chpt 5 says this "12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. "

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

why would god knowingly condemn 75% of his children to hell? He knows they aren't converting.....they're no innocents..as they know of Christ.

While having to wait in my car last night...I turned on local Christian station in Houston....the one God Listens to....and tried to have an open mind...really...but all I got from listening..was this is a cult...nothing more nothing less...

hey, wow you're from houston.. "god listens, to 89.3 fm ksbj" that station sucks.

well, as to what you mentioned, i've already answered that in my prior posts. God doesn't condemn the people to hell. God condemns sin and if they stay in sin they will go where sin belongs.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

"is accepting jesus right here on earth in real life the ONLY way out of sin and into heaven?" Yes, that's exactly what i am saying. This is the core of what I believe, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me." If God, being the creator of the cosmos, had an ultimate plan to make of himself a perfect being as perfect as God himself but due to the lack of our obedience had then fallen to a state of imperfection the only thing that would make sense for us to be redeemed is if God himself had formed another man as perfect as he is so that we would follow him to the state in which we originated from. This is love. Read what I just said and it all sums up to love. God is love, man. If you believe in love, why is it hard to believe in God? Why are you so fixated on the idea that this religion is false? If you truly have love, why not open up to what I am saying?

About ghandi and hitler, this is old news, man. The bottom line is let's not look at the mundaine to follow examples.. Let's just look to Jesus.

becos i dont want to join your cult. look, i believe in god. i believe in love. but i do not for a second believe a loving god would send a man like ghandi to hell or a man like hitler to heaven, solely becos they believe jesus was the son of god. im not basing that on any religion, im trying to base it on your philosophy as you explain it to me. and a philosophy that says a great man like ghandi deserves to rot in hell becos he didn't believe jesus was more than a human is not a philosophy of love in any sense, it is petty and vain. and it's not something that i want any part of. it's sick and arrogant. that is why i truly have love but cannot be open to what you are saying... that a person whose only flaw is skepticism of jesus's divinity deserves to burn in hell forever... that is not love and it is not forgiveness. that's like saying you're only willing to give someone a christmas present if they will give one back, that's not love, it's a business deal.

El_Kabong

soulsinging wrote:

becos i dont want to join your cult. look, i believe in god. i believe in love. but i do not for a second believe a loving god would send a man like ghandi to hell or a man like hitler to heaven, solely becos they believe jesus was the son of god. im not basing that on any religion, im trying to base it on your philosophy as you explain it to me. and a philosophy that says a great man like ghandi deserves to rot in hell becos he didn't believe jesus was more than a human is not a philosophy of love in any sense, it is petty and vain. and it's not something that i want any part of. it's sick and arrogant. that is why i truly have love but cannot be open to what you are saying... that a person whose only flaw is skepticism of jesus's divinity deserves to burn in hell forever... that is not love and it is not forgiveness. that's like saying you're only willing to give someone a christmas present if they will give one back, that's not love, it's a business deal.

it is about subserviance, there's a part in the bible where a woman asks jesus to heal her or her child and he refuses until she accepts his father as her god...

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

becos i dont want to join your cult. look, i believe in god. i believe in love. but i do not for a second believe a loving god would send a man like ghandi to hell or a man like hitler to heaven, solely becos they believe jesus was the son of god. im not basing that on any religion, im trying to base it on your philosophy as you explain it to me. and a philosophy that says a great man like ghandi deserves to rot in hell becos he didn't believe jesus was more than a human is not a philosophy of love in any sense, it is petty and vain. and it's not something that i want any part of. it's sick and arrogant. that is why i truly have love but cannot be open to what you are saying... that a person whose only flaw is skepticism of jesus's divinity deserves to burn in hell forever... that is not love and it is not forgiveness. that's like saying you're only willing to give someone a christmas present if they will give one back, that's not love, it's a business deal.

well, i assure you i'm not in no cult. i don't have sex with children, or have a numerous amount of women. and i'm not asking you for your money. but please open your mind a little to me, i think i've done the same for you.

now i feel like i'm about to go in circles again but i'm going to try one more time. to be honest, you're being a bit stubborn with your ideas. cause what i informed you is to sort of make you look at this a different way. the bible never tells you , believe in JEsus or go to hell. That's not it's message, it never has been. the message is, we need jesus, becuase of the nature that we're in.

God never wanted for any of this chaos that happens in this life. call it sin, or call it whatever you want, but i think we all agree that we have one purpose, and our purpose is to live in peace and communicate with love. the truth is, you can gather up all the philosophy in this world and we will never have peace. study science, study evolution, study literature and all sorts of idealms but still we find ourselves in the same situation. kinda like history repeats itself. and you could live your life blaming everyone else, blaming cults, conservatist, liberals, atheists, christians, mulsims and who ever you want to blame. i tend to blame humanity as a whole, you and i buddy.

so God knows the situation taht we're in and he only wants to take us out of there and bring us into the light of who we truly are. because in essence we put ourselves in this situation. but, indeed, we are like Jesus. Perfect. and inside of you, you have the image of God, but put it however you want to my friend the only way to discover your true identity is through Jesus Christ. I really don't care how you put it. if you think it's sick, or arrogant. it really doesn't make any sense to me, but we're not exchanging christmas gifts or making business deals. our human flaw is not that we do not accept the divinity of jesus, our human flaw is just that, that we are humans. that is our flaw. you're reversing the philosophy, if that's what you call it now.

Jesus Christ came to show us to find a way out of our situation that we are in. That is why he said, "in this world you will have trouble but fear not I have conquered it." My beliefs are not to shove people into hell. I don't tend to speak about hell. In fact hell was brought up because of your question. In summary, we do not go to hell because we don't accept Jesus Christ. We go to hell, (which hell means the second death) because that is what sin is deserving of. Not us. We don't deserve it. The Bible speaks about this from the very beginning to the very last word that you read. We don't deserve to go to hell. But because we have a fallen nature that is where our nature is leading us to, straight to hell. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. If anyone should be blamed for us going to hell should be the devil. not God. again, it's not God who sends us to hell. And we do not go to hell because we don't believe in JesusChrist. We go to hell because of our nature. So Christ is there to get us out of that situation. isn't that loving enough?

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the bible never tells you , believe in JEsus or go to hell.

the message is, we need jesus, becuase of the nature that we're in.

these statements seem contradictory. it still seems to me like you're saying "you dont go to hell for not believing in jesus, but you can only get to heaven if you do." so let me ask this simply and see if you can give a straight answer to it:

a person who does not believe that jesus was divine, but believes his message is true and tries as best as he can to live like jesus, can still get to heaven?

becos my mind is open, but this is a dealbreaker for me.

Scubascott

soulsinging wrote:

becos i dont want to join your cult. look, i believe in god. i believe in love. but i do not for a second believe a loving god would send a man like ghandi to hell or a man like hitler to heaven, solely becos they believe jesus was the son of god. im not basing that on any religion, im trying to base it on your philosophy as you explain it to me. and a philosophy that says a great man like ghandi deserves to rot in hell becos he didn't believe jesus was more than a human is not a philosophy of love in any sense, it is petty and vain. and it's not something that i want any part of. it's sick and arrogant. that is why i truly have love but cannot be open to what you are saying... that a person whose only flaw is skepticism of jesus's divinity deserves to burn in hell forever... that is not love and it is not forgiveness. that's like saying you're only willing to give someone a christmas present if they will give one back, that's not love, it's a business deal.

If I may ask a personal question Connor. . . Why do you believe in god? And what concept of god do you believe in? I mean what is god as you see it? I'm just curious to hear it from a non-dogmatic perspective that doesn't subscribe to any of the organised religions.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

these statements seem contradictory. it still seems to me like you're saying "you dont go to hell for not believing in jesus, but you can only get to heaven if you do." so let me ask this simply and see if you can give a straight answer to it:

Again, you go to hell because of sin, fortunately the way out is through Jesus Christ.

a person who does not believe that jesus was divine, but believes his message is true and tries as best as he can to live like jesus, can still get to heaven?

well if a person believes that his message is true i assume that by default he believes in his divinity. becuase that was part of his message. but i guess in some cases there are those that believe in his message but don't believe in his divinity. i really don't know how to answer that question. I truly believe that his messages were powerful. Powerful enough to change the life of someone, including mine. So if you were to follow his message I truly believe that you are on the right track, even to the point where you were to believe in him. If a person believes in Jesus, or in his messages and follows them, I believe that he already is in heaven.