The Rapture is not an Exit Strategy

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

listen, if he were to judge me right now, i'd be consumed into particles of ashes...

must be kind of a bummer walking around all day thinking you're such a horrible piece of shit.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i know where you are going with this, but this is not a subject that I can go into. my faith doesn't allow me. if Ghandi accepted Jesus Christ or not, it's not my business

haha, nice loophole. what doesn't your faith allow you to do? ghandi did not accept jesus, that's public knowledge. your religion tells you, i assume, that everyone who doesn't goes to hell. therefore, ghandi goes to hell in your religious doctrine, correct? admit it, you dont want to answer the question becos it exposes how utterly, ridiculously cruel and arbitrary your god is.

Foxwell

Trau wrote:

Why should Muhammad be honored? Do you not care that he was a warlord?

Sure it concerns me: just as it concerns me that the Bagadavita opens with a massive and bloody battle; just as it concerns me that, in Leviticus, the Bible condones slavery; just as it concerns me that Buddhism is peppered with misogyny.

I've read the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Four Noble Truths, and much of the Bagadavita. I was inspired by all and slightly disturbed, too.

I'm not sure if you are a Christian, but I found it interesting to note, and you may too, that there seems to be more violence within the pages of "the good book" than is contained in the Qu'ran.

In the end, I figure if I disregarded any philosophy or piece of literature because one or two aspects disturbed me, the only book left on my shelf would be Superfudge.

It too is a good book, but I want a whole lot more.

norm

Foxwell wrote:

Sure it concerns me: just as it concerns me that the Bagadavita opens with a massive and bloody battle; just as it concerns me that, in Leviticus, the Bible condones slavery; just as it concerns me that Buddhism is peppered with misogyny.

I've read the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Four Noble Truths, and much of the Bagadavita. I was inspired by all and slightly disturbed, too.

I'm not sure if you are a Christian, but I found it interesting to note, and you may too, that there seems to be more violence within the pages of "the good book" than is contained in the Qu'ran.

In the end, I figure if I disregarded any philosophy or piece of literature because one or two aspects disturbed me, the only book left on my shelf would be Superfudge.

It too is a good book, but I want a whole lot more.

I'd rather follow the teachings of Judy Blume then a bunch of guys who lived 2000 years ago.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

must be kind of a bummer walking around all day thinking you're such a horrible piece of shit.

i didn't say i was a horrible piece of shit.... you're reading into things the wrong way. what i did say was that i wasn't perfect... and God knows our imperfections. what i believe and what the bible teaches me is that the entire world is held captive through their minds by the mundaine and physical challenges of life. it's what sin that caused sickness, famines and hunger. it's sin that causes us to hate each other and fight with each other. there's no way out of it. from the moment you are born, you are born with this sinful nature. but thank God that now he has formed a new man, Jesus Christ, and he is the ultimate example to live life the way we were meant to live it. why is it so hard to accept this?

haha, nice loophole. what doesn't your faith allow you to do? ghandi did not accept jesus, that's public knowledge. your religion tells you, i assume, that everyone who doesn't goes to hell. therefore, ghandi goes to hell in your religious doctrine, correct? admit it, you dont want to answer the question becos it exposes how utterly, ridiculously cruel and arbitrary your god is.

you are such a close-minded person. tell me what good does it for you if we get into this conversation? you just want to feel satisfied that my God is cruel and arbitrary???? ok, true, my God is cruel. he can be a tyrant if he wanted to. the truth is he choses not to. you didn't read what i wrote to the other guy did you? it's explains this. another person's spiritual life has got nothing to do with me. i don't go around walking with a sign saying repent and be baptized or go to hell. this isn't what my faith teaches me. you've got all this nonsense plugged in your head.

deadnothingbetter

danphxariz wrote:

lol, I just thought it was a reference to some evangelicals who think that the US should try to bring about the rapture through its middle east policy. I think the point the bumper sticker makes is basically, "stop trying to cause the rapture, and look for another way to end this." That's all.

the way to end it, is through jesus christ.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

why is it so hard to accept this?

i could write volumes about this, but i doubt either of us is going to get anywhere with it.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

you are such a close-minded person. tell me what good does it for you if we get into this conversation? you just want to feel satisfied that my God is cruel and arbitrary???? ok, true, my God is cruel. he can be a tyrant if he wanted to. the truth is he choses not to. you didn't read what i wrote to the other guy did you? it's explains this. another person's spiritual life has got nothing to do with me. i don't go around walking with a sign saying repent and be baptized or go to hell. this isn't what my faith teaches me. you've got all this nonsense plugged in your head.

im just wondering if you can explain to me your beliefs. he chooses not to be a tyrant, yet says you are going to hell if you dont believe in jesus... period. i want you to explain the contradiction between a loving god who would send a good man like ghandi to hell for choosing the wrong religion. how is that loving or forgiving? now, if you're NOT saying ghandi has to go to hell and it's entirely up to god's judgment, then my question is why do we have to accept jesus, when it is clear that god can make his judgments as to people's fitness for heaven regardless of what church they went to on earth?

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the way to end it, is through jesus christ.

id love to see you explain how jesus can end the war in iraq and ethnic conflicts that have been going on since BEFORE jesus was born.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

i could write volumes about this, but i doubt either of us is going to get anywhere with it.



im just wondering if you can explain to me your beliefs. he chooses not to be a tyrant, yet says you are going to hell if you dont believe in jesus... period. i want you to explain the contradiction between a loving god who would send a good man like ghandi to hell for choosing the wrong religion. how is that loving or forgiving? now, if you're NOT saying ghandi has to go to hell and it's entirely up to god's judgment, then my question is why do we have to accept jesus, when it is clear that god can make his judgments as to people's fitness for heaven regardless of what church they went to on earth?

ok, good. now you're opening up a little more.

i will mention sin again. this is what is meant to be abolished. "the wages of sin is death." living in sin brings us to death and condemnation. it is not God. God doesn't condemn us. We lost our path and connection to God. like the virus i mentioned before. let me explain again. we got sick, metaphorically. we needed a healer, christ is our healer. if we do not heal, we will die, spiritually speaking. now i know i'm sort of speaking in riddles but this is exactly what is meant by it. God never sends us to hell. Hell was prepared for the devil, death and evil. God is not being a tyrant against us. He is not being a dictator. When we see the Old Testament and we think, "man, God was evil." He was only showing his hatred towards sin. God hates sin and abolishes it. In the Old Testament, men of then did not have access to this spiritual life in christ. Like you said in your other post, even before Jesus was around, what humans had access to was the Law... or actually it was only directed to the Israelites and anyone outside of the line of Israel was held bondage to the sinful nature. When we chose to live in sin this is what happens. God is not angry towards us, he is angry at sin. If we live in sin, we will go exactly where sin will go. is this making more sense?

if ghandi stayed in sin then he is where sin belongs. but our place belongs with christ, seated at the right hand of God. it's not about choosing the right or wrong religion. it's not about being good or being bad. (this was only back in the days of Israel) and it's not about religion. period. it's about choosing what we really ought to be.

so why do we need to accept jesus??? to get rid of sin.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

id love to see you explain how jesus can end the war in iraq and ethnic conflicts that have been going on since BEFORE jesus was born.

if all of us put our faith in Christ... the creator of everything that we see and feel... then all of us will begin to live like Christ. How was Christ? Full of love and hope.

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

if all of us put our faith in Christ... the creator of everything that we see and feel... then all of us will begin to live like Christ. How was Christ? Full of love and hope.

This strikes me as overly optimistic. I know an awful lot of people who say that they put their faith in Christ. I can think of only two who appear to be making anything close to a genuine effort to live according to those ideals.

deadnothingbetter

hippiemom wrote:

This strikes me as overly optimistic. I know an awful lot of people who say that they put their faith in Christ. I can think of only two who appear to be making anything close to a genuine effort to live according to those ideals.

hey, well for the many who aren't making a genuine effort that's their business. let them be hypocrites if they want to. i mean i'm not justifying them and neither am i saying i'm perfect. i too fail sometimes. i too say things i shouldn't say. the truth is putting your faith in Christ doesn't make you perfect, it just makes you understand who is perfect and who is not. That is to say that Jesus Christ was and will ever be the only perfect being that ever existed. But since we are still imperfect even while believing in Christ, God understands this very clearly and that is why Christ died on the cross so that we may be justified. oh, i know what you might ask, "so does that mean that they can do whatever they want and still feel justified simply because they believe in Christ?" no. I will leave you with this.

Romans 6:1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

just a thought... sometimes when i hear beautiful and uplifting things such as the flaming lips sometimes i think to myself, "wow, how is it that they could realize how to let things in life take it's own course, but they cannot realize that a part of what they say is a reflection of God himself?"

danphxariz

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the way to end it, is through jesus christ.

Well as a fellow Christian I'd agree that He's the way to do anything. However how do you suggest ending the war in Iraq through Jesus? This is a serious question. Are you suggesting prayer? Doing our best and trusting in Him and His plan? All of the above? If so I'd agree. Or, I mentioned those Christians who think we should try to bring about the rapture ... personally I disagree with this. I think that will happen at a time of His choosing and there's not a thing we can do about it, like scripture says it will happen when we least expect it and He will come like a thief in the night ... I guess I just don't think he wants us to start wars to try to bring His coming. IMO we should strive to live good lives and follow His example, living peaceably with each other as Paul suggests.

catefrances

this is why i love being an atheist. we are condemned by all religions.

and i seriuosly doubt gandhi would have been concerned one way or the other about being condemned by a christian doctrine.it has no relevance to him or his life, seeings how he wasn't a christian.

Scubascott

danphxariz wrote:

Well as a fellow Christian I'd agree that He's the way to do anything. However how do you suggest ending the war in Iraq through Jesus? This is a serious question. Are you suggesting prayer? Doing our best and trusting in Him and His plan?

What does that mean exactly? What would you have the world do? Just pray and have faith that everything will turn out ok in the end? Thats sounds exactly like the philisophy behind the arabic phrase 'In sha-allah' How is that going to help? Change only happens if you make it happen.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

this is why i love being an atheist. we are condemned by all religions.

and i seriuosly doubt gandhi would have been concerned one way or the other about being condemned by a christian doctrine.it has no relevance to him or his life, seeings how he wasn't a christian.

nobody is condemning anybody here... as i'm sure there are religious people who do this... but let's get away from that notion. the truth is we condemn ourselves by trying to solve things through war, murder, lies, ambitions and things of that nature... it's all the human nature. we argue with each other, we all want to be right, we want to antogonize others and prove that we are the one's ahead of the other. that's all human nature. kinda like "do the evolution" it's pretty much what it seems he's talking about there. "i'm a thief. i'm a liar. there's my church i sing in the choir. why? because it's evolution(human nature)" but as i said before, if you look into it, as clear as it is the biblical doctrine does not condemn you. what it does say is that we humans allow ourselves to be condemned by each other.

deadnothingbetter

Scubascott wrote:

What does that mean exactly? What would you have the world do? Just pray and have faith that everything will turn out ok in the end? Thats sounds exactly like the philisophy behind the arabic phrase 'In sha-allah' How is that going to help? Change only happens if you make it happen.

The first question I would ask is what actions must we take to bring about the change?

deadnothingbetter

danphxariz wrote:

Well as a fellow Christian I'd agree that He's the way to do anything. However how do you suggest ending the war in Iraq through Jesus? This is a serious question. Are you suggesting prayer? Doing our best and trusting in Him and His plan? All of the above? If so I'd agree. Or, I mentioned those Christians who think we should try to bring about the rapture ... personally I disagree with this. I think that will happen at a time of His choosing and there's not a thing we can do about it, like scripture says it will happen when we least expect it and He will come like a thief in the night ... I guess I just don't think he wants us to start wars to try to bring His coming. IMO we should strive to live good lives and follow His example, living peaceably with each other as Paul suggests.

i don't know how to take this question. i have to be honest. i don't know if it's a good question or just a simple question with a simple answer. but then again i'm finding myself hard to explain.

Is the war ever going to end?? I don't think so. Maybe it will or maybe it won't. I don't know. But in a spiritual sense there is no war. Nature is just wasting itself out. "We battle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers." Our job is to tell the world that there is hope. There is hope from poverty, there is hope from sickness, there is hope from wars and this hope is found in Jesus Christ as you would agree. So that was my intention. I am not going out on a limb saying that "lo and behold i have found the equation to end all wars." no. See, Jesus himself said that in him there is life. The truth is I still die. Physically, my body dies, but spiritually I am alive. This is what he means. It works the same with wars. There will always be wars in this physical realm but in the spiritual realm there is peace, there is brilliance and beauty. I don't know does that make sense?

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

nobody is condemning anybody here... as i'm sure there are religious people who do this... but let's get away from that notion. the truth is we condemn ourselves by trying to solve things through war, murder, lies, ambitions and things of that nature... it's all the human nature. we argue with each other, we all want to be right, we want to antogonize others and prove that we are the one's ahead of the other. that's all human nature. kinda like "do the evolution" it's pretty much what it seems he's talking about there. "i'm a thief. i'm a liar. there's my church i sing in the choir. why? because it's evolution(human nature)" but as i said before, if you look into it, as clear as it is the biblical doctrine does not condemn you. what it does say is that we humans allow ourselves to be condemned by each other.

i said 'condemned by all religions'. i didn't say by people.

danphxariz

Scubascott wrote:

What does that mean exactly? What would you have the world do? Just pray and have faith that everything will turn out ok in the end? Thats sounds exactly like the philisophy behind the arabic phrase 'In sha-allah' How is that going to help? Change only happens if you make it happen.

Yes, I agree that change comes about through actions, and not just words, or wishes or hopes. However, I think prayer makes a difference - there is something more to the world than we know or can explain. I believe there is a higher power - I call it God, others might refer to it as something else. I have seen this work too often in my life not to believe it. Those people who are in positions of power to do something that directly effects the Iraq situation, together with those of us who aren't, can all use prayer, faith and trust that the actions of those in power will be guided by God (or whatever you prefer to call it) to find a way toward peace.

I can also see that while this might seem a good idea to those who have faith and who believe in a higher power, those people who don't have this faith or belief might not think that this will do much good (and without faith, I think they'd be right). So the above may not be the best way for them, I don't know, I certainly don't have all the answers or ideas. But, hopefully everyone who cares about the situation can find some way to make a difference that works for them.

Getting back to the original topic, I still don't think that trying to bring about the rapture is what we as Christians are called to do. That is not for us to decide. As the bumper sticker says, there is a better way out of Iraq and we are called to find it.

danphxariz

deadnothingbetter wrote:

Is the war ever going to end?? Our job is to tell the world that there is hope. There is hope from poverty, there is hope from sickness, there is hope from wars and this hope is found in Jesus Christ as you would agree. So that was my intention. There will always be wars in this physical realm but in the spiritual realm there is peace, there is brilliance and beauty. I don't know does that make sense?

Agree completely. Gotcha.