Don't we all "indoctrinate" our children though with our beliefs? If we are Jewish, we teach them the way. If we are Catholic, we teach them the way. If we are Mormon, we teach them the way. If we are Athiest, we teach them the way. We all indoctrinate our kids with what OUR life experience has taught us.
As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. Something that obviously brings them happiness and goodness in their lives. Does that mean we all have to stop and listen and join? Absolutely not. But it also does not mean we should belittle, degrade, humiliate or frighten them.
I dont' remember who made the comment, but it was said something to the effect of "I don't take my godless music and placard and go door to door preaching my love for Satan" (paraphrasing)...but the point is there. If you are so sure what you believe is good, right or otherwise enlightened, why wouldn't you? Why don't any of us? Shouldn't we be doing the same thing and spread the message that we have found to be true to ourselves? Shouldn't we try to draw as many people into what we believe is happy and good and real?
If anything, this thread has taught me that I need to stand by and promote my own beliefs more. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a hypocrite.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
right, i don't know anything about mormons. so i cannot comment on your statement.
however, i'm very curious to know your reasons. And when you say they are brainwashers, please expand. how do THEY affect YOU in every day life?
so that you would call them a scum.
Personally i would call a scum a person who is involved in some kind of criminal activity, like thieveing, raping, attacking someone for no reason at all.
I agree scum may be too harsh of a word. However, my next door neighbors are mormons. I am not an expect on the religion. But I do not agree on going door to door to make a point. And they are very aggressive to "sell" their story to anyone who will listen. Even when you tell them that they are going to far, they insist you listen to more. I have honestly slammed the door in their face because I have asked them to stop talking the talk. I have now found booklets that they have handed my kids. That's what pissed me off the most.
The "selling" seems to applies to every thing they do in life. Like they have to pitch their stance on everything. I just find it very rude. I find it very insulting. If I wanted to know about your religion I would ask. There was never any consideration on how I felt or how I feel. It's always about how they feel and how they want to share it with you.
She then throws in that she has heard that New Englanders are very stand off'ish. Well you know what....if any one hands my kids something full knowing that the parent would not allow it that is kinda of scummy if you ask me. She knew I would never accept her little booklets. But she knew my kids wouldn't know any better.
What's the difference between that and handing my kids something from a any other cult or whacko group?? Again kinda scummy if you ask me.
My disclaimer, I do not know very many mormons. But the ones I know have bothered me from the day I met them. I am not generalizing but that has been my impression for my situation.
MomofGlynn I agree that your situation has crossed the line. Since you know them personally, if you distinctly asked them to stop, they should have. And you are right, if someone from what I believed to be a dangerous cult tried to seduce my children into their fold, I would be upset too and would probably not be too kind. (I don't think that I would personally classify Mormons as such though) In that respect, I would simply educate my children about who they are, that they will try to talk religion with them and that I prefer they do not engage in it. You could tell your kids that if the neighbors approach them with any other literature to politely decline and if they are pressured, tell them they have to talk to mommy or daddy. It seems that these people you know are bit thick headed.
I would take the booklets back to them and keep doing that every time. Sooner or later they will get the message.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Don't we all "indoctrinate" our children though with our beliefs? If we are Jewish, we teach them the way. If we are Catholic, we teach them the way. If we are Mormon, we teach them the way. If we are Athiest, we teach them the way. We all indoctrinate our kids with what OUR life experience has taught us.
Yes I agree. But children do grow up and form their own beliefs and they do have input from more than just their parents.
As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. Something that obviously brings them happiness and goodness in their lives. Does that mean we all have to stop and listen and join? Absolutely not. But it also does not mean we should belittle, degrade, humiliate or frighten them.
Unfortunately I don't agree with you here. If that is your view, then I completely respect that but if I wanted to share that view or find out more about that view I would seek you out. Arriving on my doorstep is promoting your belief and you are trying to bring me around to your way of thinking. That is "selling". You want something from me. An exchange of some kind. And with that in mind I see it the same as the cable tv guy trying to sign me up or the real estate agent looking for a commission. People have the right to do as they wish in their own homes, they are entitled to their privacy and they have the right to say no and that should be respected. Often it is not. There could very well be all kinds of things going on behind closed doors and making the assumption that people wish to hear about GOD or your view or anything else is really selfish and self absorbed in my opinion. The first time perhaps we can put it down to not knowing any better but after a while that argument wears very thin. How distressing and upsetting to be looking after a sick child, being sick yourself, just wishing to be left alone or a whole bunch of other things that people should be able to do in the privacy of their own homes, only to be bailed up by someone with an agenda of their own. I'm quite sure that if it is your mission in life to interupt people in the privacy of their homes they are well versed in the many different responses they receive. It's not ok to be violent with them, but that doesn't mean that you have to recieve them with open arms endlessly and to expect someone to do that is really unreasonable. The first 20 times I was visited I was extremely congenial but when it became apparent that what I thought was being completely ignored and that I now had "serial pests" on my doorstep then too bad if I don't bother opening the door or I decide that instead of allowing them to monopolize the conversation, I pick a subject and see if they want discuss my thoughts. I have never been nasty, or aggressive, but if rude is what it takes for you to get it or a sense that I'm pulling your leg, then so be it. There are far worse things a person can do and have done to doorstep missionaries. I sleep fine at night.
I dont' remember who made the comment, but it was said something to the effect of "I don't take my godless music and placard and go door to door preaching my love for Satan" (paraphrasing)...but the point is there. If you are so sure what you believe is good, right or otherwise enlightened, why wouldn't you? Why don't any of us? Shouldn't we be doing the same thing and spread the message that we have found to be true to ourselves? Shouldn't we try to draw as many people into what we believe is happy and good and real?
Twas me that made that comment and the reason that I do not hop on a plane and go wave my placard and godless music or anything else to the Mormons is because I already know that we do not share the same view and that's ok by me, I have no desire to change their perspective or shove my views down their throats in their own homes. I consider it disrespectful.
Just as I would consider it disrespectful if I was to attend a church service and sprout my own views on athiesm loudly to the congregation. If I go somewhere that people are worshipping, then I am respectful of their views and their customs. If you come to my house or where I am participating in something that I believe in, then I expect the same in return.
If anything, this thread has taught me that I need to stand by and promote my own beliefs more. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a hypocrite.
It is not hypocritical to hold a belief and not promote it. Some people don't find it necessary and that is their choice just as it is yours to promote what you believe in. Just don't be expecting people to share your views, or wish to listen to you promote them. Your beliefs are yours and you are entitled to them and how you enterpret them and discuss them with others is entirely your choice. Just as it is my right to believe what I believe and not be at all concerned that we don't share the same view, just as I don't feel the need to try to convert you to my way of thinking. We are all different. We are all entitled to our point of view and we all have the right to do what we think is good and right. We cannot however expect that we will be able to do this with everyone and not come up against disagreement at some point.
I am perfectly happy with how I have handled my interactions with people on my doorstep and you are not. As it's my doorstep I'll be continuing as I have done.
As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. promote my own beliefs more. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a hypocrite.
I realize they mean well as I stated earlier. However they are using very high pressure sales and marketing techniques.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Yes I agree. But children do grow up and form their own beliefs and they do have input from more than just their parents.
Unfortunately I don't agree with you here. If that is your view, then I completely respect that but if I wanted to share that view or find out more about that view I would seek you out. Arriving on my doorstep is promoting your belief and you are trying to bring me around to your way of thinking. That is "selling". You want something from me. An exchange of some kind. And with that in mind I see it the same as the cable tv guy trying to sign me up or the real estate agent looking for a commission. People have the right to do as they wish in their own homes, they are entitled to their privacy and they have the right to say no and that should be respected. Often it is not. There could very well be all kinds of things going on behind closed doors and making the assumption that people wish to hear about GOD or your view or anything else is really selfish and self absorbed in my opinion. The first time perhaps we can put it down to not knowing any better but after a while that argument wears very thin. How distressing and upsetting to be looking after a sick child, being sick yourself, just wishing to be left alone or a whole bunch of other things that people should be able to do in the privacy of their own homes, only to be bailed up by someone with an agenda of their own. I'm quite sure that if it is your mission in life to interupt people in the privacy of their homes they are well versed in the many different responses they receive. It's not ok to be violent with them, but that doesn't mean that you have to recieve them with open arms endlessly and to expect someone to do that is really unreasonable. The first 20 times I was visited I was extremely congenial but when it became apparent that what I thought was being completely ignored and that I now had "serial pests" on my doorstep then too bad if I don't bother opening the door or I decide that instead of allowing them to monopolize the conversation, I pick a subject and see if they want discuss my thoughts. I have never been nasty, or aggressive, but if rude is what it takes for you to get it or a sense that I'm pulling your leg, then so be it. There are far worse things a person can do and have done to doorstep missionaries. I sleep fine at night.
Twas me that made that comment and the reason that I do not hop on a plane and go wave my placard and godless music or anything else to the Mormons is because I already know that we do not share the same view and that's ok by me, I have no desire to change their perspective or shove my views down their throats in their own homes. I consider it disrespectful.
Just as I would consider it disrespectful if I was to attend a church service and sprout my own views on athiesm loudly to the congregation. If I go somewhere that people are worshipping, then I am respectful of their views and their customs. If you come to my house or where I am participating in something that I believe in, then I expect the same in return.
It is not hypocritical to hold a belief and not promote it. Some people don't find it necessary and that is their choice just as it is yours to promote what you believe in. Just don't be expecting people to share your views, or wish to listen to you promote them. Your beliefs are yours and you are entitled to them and how you enterpret them and discuss them with others is entirely your choice. Just as it is my right to believe what I believe and not be at all concerned that we don't share the same view, just as I don't feel the need to try to convert you to my way of thinking. We are all different. We are all entitled to our point of view and we all have the right to do what we think is good and right. We cannot however expect that we will be able to do this with everyone and not come up against disagreement at some point.
I am perfectly happy with how I have handled my interactions with people on my doorstep and you are not. As it's my doorstep I'll be continuing as I have done.
Dang I wish I could do that bold or colored type thing. I'll have to fudge it now.
But your first response was that children grow up and learn from the input of their parents AND others. But really, how can that happen if others don't share their points of view? Their beliefs? We would live in a terribly mono thinking environment if that were the case. Thankfully we do not.
I totally get it though. You aren't compelled to share your thoughts, your insights. That is totally fine. As you said, it is your choice.
I also agree that you have the right not to be bothered by others in your personal space. It is unfortunate that your experiences have been so negative. I cannot say I have had the same. So I am not saying you cannot choose to be left alone, my initial point in all of this was that there was no need to be negative or snide towards them. They really aren't harming anyone. Annoying maybe, but dangerous no.
I think you said you don't live in the US, so I am not sure how it works where you are, but here we simply need to ask to be taken off of their territory lists. Then they don't come but once in a few years or so to see if we have moved and someone new is living in the home. What about a no tresspassing sign?
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
I think you said you don't live in the US, so I am not sure how it works where you are, but here we simply need to ask to be taken off of their territory lists. Then they don't come but once in a few years or so to see if we have moved and someone new is living in the home. What about a no tresspassing sign?
in australia one is still allowed to have access up to and only to the front door. even with a no trepassing sign this is legal. at least that has always been my take on the situation.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
in australia one is still allowed to have access up to and only to the front door. even with a no trepassing sign this is legal. at least that has always been my take on the situation.
Well that's pretty crummy.
What about a big ferocious snarling dog who spits drool when he barks?
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Actually no cate, I've never sworn at them. I have become more terse and less pleasant but I've never sworn at them. I've certainly stopped smiling when they appear! I have asked that they don't return though. Actually........now that I think about it it's been a while......I hate to speak too soon, but maybe they're FINALLY heeding my request!
nor have i. i was justing mucking about.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What about a big ferocious snarling dog who spits drool when he barks?
well you aren't really allowed to have a dog in your front yard. it has to be secured. and people have to be able to knock on your door. however one would imagine a big snarling drooling dog would be a way to keep the doorknockers at bay.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Don't we all "indoctrinate" our children though with our beliefs? If we are Jewish, we teach them the way. If we are Catholic, we teach them the way. If we are Mormon, we teach them the way. If we are Athiest, we teach them the way. We all indoctrinate our kids with what OUR life experience has taught us.
I'm sure religionists do indoctrinate their children. The rest of us simply set good examples. I do not openly ridicule religion in front of my kids. My daughter attended a local church with some of her friends for a year or two. I supported her search. I asked her questions about what she was being taught. I made sure she understood that she is the ultimate arbiter of her beliefs. My son has so far shown no interest in things religious. I grew up in a very religious home, and am now very anti-religious, but I will not do as my parents did and attempt to force beliefs.
As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. Something that obviously brings them happiness and goodness in their lives. Does that mean we all have to stop and listen and join? Absolutely not. But it also does not mean we should belittle, degrade, humiliate or frighten them.
Of course they're selling their religion. They learn not only the standard discussions, but like all good salesmen learn how to overcome objections. They learn to plant a seed and any time they get any positive affirmations to focus on those ("foot in the door" as mentioned above). Sure they are sharing their faith, but they are doing so with a quota. They all set goals for visits, discussions, baptisms, etc...
I dont' remember who made the comment, but it was said something to the effect of "I don't take my godless music and placard and go door to door preaching my love for Satan" (paraphrasing)...but the point is there. If you are so sure what you believe is good, right or otherwise enlightened, why wouldn't you? Why don't any of us? Shouldn't we be doing the same thing and spread the message that we have found to be true to ourselves? Shouldn't we try to draw as many people into what we believe is happy and good and real?
I suppose it depends on the way you approach it. If I find a great restaurant, I tell people about it, because I want the restaurant to succeed, and I want my friends to enjoy a good meal. But I don't harp on it. I don't offer to drive them to the door and pay the tab, I don't guilt them into going, I don't ring their doorbell, give them a menu, and try to get them to commit to patronzing the restaurant.
I've only had one run in with Mormon's in the last five years or so. A guy came knocking on the door at my girlfriends house the day after my graduation. We were both well and truly hung over and she didn't even move when I tried to tell her there was someone at the door. I dragged my sorry arse out of bed and probably answered the door in boxer shorts or nude or something, I can't remember. I must have smelt like a stale brewery cause the guy actually didn't hang around for long, even when I told him I was an atheist.
I'd love for them to come round to my house when I'm in a better frame of mind - so I can invite them in and tell them all about Darwinism. Maybe give them some Richard Dawkins to read. . . .
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Dang I wish I could do that bold or colored type thing. I'll have to fudge it now.
bold = [ b ] at the start of the text you wish to highlight with [ /b ] at the end of the quote. Minus the spaces I've put in between here in order to show you. like this see?
itallics = same applies for itallics except it would be [ i ] followed by [ /i ] like this.
colored text = Same principle [ color=red ] at the start and [ /color ] at the end. ( again remove the spaces. ) like this.
For seperating points in the text when quoting someone same applies. For example to quote you I hit the quote button, this then shows what you have said with [ quote=Mahogony Souls ] at the start of your text and [ /quote ] at the end. If you put that at the start and end of each point you wish to seperate you'll end up seperating the text. And can type your responses after each quote. And of course you have to remove the spaces again. Hope that makes some sense.
But your first response was that children grow up and learn from the input of their parents AND others. But really, how can that happen if others don't share their points of view? Their beliefs? We would live in a terribly mono thinking environment if that were the case. Thankfully we do not.
I'm not suggesting that people don't share their points of view, I'm simply taking issue with WHERE they do it, HOW they do it, and WHY they continue when it has been made clear it's not welcome. As mentioned by momofglynn it's not appropriate sometimes. It is a parents responsibility to police that for their children. Parents do it all the time. If we say that it's ok for the situation to occur as did with momofglynn and her children we really have no reason to then complain if some nutter from NAMBLA bowls up and starts discussing highly innapropriate things with our children. :eek: It's a parents role to guide their children as they grow and learn to be fully functioning individuals. I'm not for censorship but there are such things as age appropriate information as well as being respectful of a persons wishes and views. Whilst I believe that children should be exposed to a wide variety of views and beliefs it should never be at the detriment of their well being or against the wishes of their parents. For example as an Aunty I would always check with my brother or sister in law if I had concerns about a conversation or behaviour or situation that occured whilst the children are in my care. Recently we had a death in the family and my niece was old enough to ask questions and asked many of them. She wanted to know why I was crying, and I stated plainly that I was sad because Grandma had died and I wouldn't see her anymore and I would miss her. She wanted to know where she had gone and told her that she had been buried in the ground. This seemed to bother her, she wanted to know why, so I told her that is what Grandma wanted to happen when she died. There was then some question about Heaven. I said I didn't believe in Heaven but maybe she could talk to Mummy about it? I also told her to remember that Grandma loved her very much and even though we wouldn't see her anymore she would always love us. I had this conversation in hearing of my sister in law and if she'd taken issue, I'm sure she would have told me so. Unfortunately, as was the case for momofglynn, people were not respectful of her views and chose to engage her children anyway.
I totally get it though. You aren't compelled to share your thoughts, your insights. That is totally fine. As you said, it is your choice.
I also agree that you have the right not to be bothered by others in your personal space. It is unfortunate that your experiences have been so negative. I cannot say I have had the same. So I am not saying you cannot choose to be left alone, my initial point in all of this was that there was no need to be negative or snide towards them. They really aren't harming anyone. Annoying maybe, but dangerous no.
I wouldn't say my experiences have been negative, they are what they are. What you have is an escalation in the mode of response based on the inability of the individuals involved to recognize and respect my point of view.
At no point have I threatened them or been abusive, I've simply chosen to talk about something that I know would offend them, when it's become apparent that they have no intention of not being offensive to me and stopping the conversation when I have requested them to. And whilst I agree that it's not "dangerous" as such, the constant arrival on my front door step in the early hours of a Saturday or Sunday morning is detrimental to my health. I do not need to be woken up for things I consider frivolous as I'm sure people with disabilities and illness do not need to be struggling to the door to be confronted by people that are unwillinging to take no for an answer. So in that respect I do consider it harmful.
Having said that I have no problem discussing people's religious beliefs in an environment or at a time that is suitable to both myself and them. I have many religious friends and while we do not share the same beliefs I am more than happy to discuss these with them if the situation arises. And I'm not beyond donating to The Salvation Army or other religious charities if I deem the cause worthy. It's not like I haven't purchased more than a few Watchtowers and the like in my time.
I think you said you don't live in the US, so I am not sure how it works where you are, but here we simply need to ask to be taken off of their territory lists. Then they don't come but once in a few years or so to see if we have moved and someone new is living in the home. What about a no tresspassing sign?
There is no law that says they cannot enter my property, actually we have to allow access for things like meter readers and census collectors and the like, and we have to keep any dogs away from the path to the front door in order to ensure the safety of the "visitor". We do have a "Do Not Call" register for telemarketers that you can register with, and we are able to put signs on our letter boxes and by the front door. I have a sign on the letter box regarding advertising material. It's crossed my mind to have a sign by the door but really, when the kids from the local school come calling looking for donations, or sponsorship in their read-a-thon or walk-a-thon or to sell raffle tickets or the Heart Foundation or other charitable organization is doing a door knock, I really wouldn't want them to think that they weren't welcome. And I would never dream of having a sign on the house that said specifically religious people not welcome. No I think I'll just muddle along with the no thank you and when they persist we shall discuss something that I know they'll find distasteful. I'd prefer it wasn't that way, but no thank you means no thank you so if you think it doesn't apply I guess I have no choice than to start talking about Satan.
hehe! Yeah, I know. Same with me and the "we all worship Satan here" comment to the boys last time. Only mentioned it after several no thank yous and a have a nice day, could see it was getting me nowhere and not wanting to shut the door in their faces, I pulled out the Satan comment very cheekily, when they continued on about the lord. They lit up for a moment, while I smiled at them, but when the "Perhaps God sent us to you to help you" comment came out, I really only could follow it up with, "Perhaps God sent you to me so I could teach you about Satan". At that point I think it finally sunk in that I wasn't interested. I wished them a good day and finally they left. The SDA ladies were so persistant though, and I'm such a sucker for little old ladies, that I finally had to stop answering the door and just hiding out till they went away.
well you aren't really allowed to have a dog in your front yard. it has to be secured. and people have to be able to knock on your door. however one would imagine a big snarling drooling dog would be a way to keep the doorknockers at bay.
Yeah.....nah! :rolleyes: Lukin has been going off like a frog in a sock when people knock on the front door and it's scared away no one. They know I have him inside with me because you can hear him, but it doesn't stop them knocking.
Yeah.....nah! :rolleyes: Lukin has been going off like a frog in a sock when people knock on the front door and it's scared away no one. They know I have him inside with me because you can hear him, but it doesn't stop them knocking.
i was thinking more like cujo.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
hehe! Well you'd be surprised the number of people that are intimidated by Lukin. I mean I know he's a big old softy and a bloody sook but other people cross the road when they see us coming. I think they think he's got pit bull or something in him.
I've only had one run in with Mormon's in the last five years or so. A guy came knocking on the door at my girlfriends house the day after my graduation. We were both well and truly hung over and she didn't even move when I tried to tell her there was someone at the door. I dragged my sorry arse out of bed and probably answered the door in boxer shorts or nude or something, I can't remember. I must have smelt like a stale brewery cause the guy actually didn't hang around for long, even when I told him I was an atheist.
Nice work scott! On the graduation and the naked, hangover athiest response!
I'd love for them to come round to my house when I'm in a better frame of mind - so I can invite them in and tell them all about Darwinism. Maybe give them some Richard Dawkins to read. . . .
My Dad got sweet on one of the girls that used to come around, not sure which religion, but he always invited her in and listened to what she had to say, until she wised up and realized that he was angling for a dinner date!
Do you remember those blokes in Melbourne that invited the Mormons in and served them hash cookies?
Don't we all "indoctrinate" our children though with our beliefs? If we are Jewish, we teach them the way. If we are Catholic, we teach them the way. If we are Mormon, we teach them the way. If we are Athiest, we teach them the way. We all indoctrinate our kids with what OUR life experience has taught us.
As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. Something that obviously brings them happiness and goodness in their lives. Does that mean we all have to stop and listen and join? Absolutely not. But it also does not mean we should belittle, degrade, humiliate or frighten them.
I dont' remember who made the comment, but it was said something to the effect of "I don't take my godless music and placard and go door to door preaching my love for Satan" (paraphrasing)...but the point is there. If you are so sure what you believe is good, right or otherwise enlightened, why wouldn't you? Why don't any of us? Shouldn't we be doing the same thing and spread the message that we have found to be true to ourselves? Shouldn't we try to draw as many people into what we believe is happy and good and real?
If anything, this thread has taught me that I need to stand by and promote my own beliefs more. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a hypocrite.
nope. our child is almost three.........if he finds god, he'll have to do it on his own.
I'm reading the book for entertainment purposes only, not as if it was complete fact. I believe every author does interject a little bit of their own opinion, even if it is labeled non-fiction.
The first part of this book is regarding the religion and its origins, which the author footnotes with corresponding books (including the book of Mormon), or news articles. The second part is how a couple of fundamentalist brothers received a message from God to kill a woman and her baby. Apparently, it was news in Utah in 1984.
ah ok... like I said I've never read it but probably will... it's just I felt bitter and kinda used after into thin air... cos I formed my opinions on what happened, but then after reading other books and articles on the same topic, realised how a strong opinion from the author can actually be quite dangerous. I'll keep an eye out for this one though so thanks
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
She then throws in that she has heard that New Englanders are very stand off'ish. Well you know what....if any one hands my kids something full knowing that the parent would not allow it that is kinda of scummy if you ask me. She knew I would never accept her little booklets. But she knew my kids wouldn't know any better.
What's the difference between that and handing my kids something from a any other cult or whacko group?? Again kinda scummy if you ask me.
WOW :eek:
Do they have kids? How about you give them some alcohol next time ya see them... or a cigarette no wait, that's illegal :(
dammit, give her kids something you know she wouldn't appreciate and see how she likes it... oh I hope she has kids.
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Verona??? it's all surmountable
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:eek: Luckily for me all the devout in my family have now passed away, so I don't really have to listen to too much of it from that quarter anymore.
When you say whiskey you don't mean Jamieson's do you? :eek:
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As for "selling" their religion. I truly don't believe that is what these people are doing. They aren't selling anything. It isn't a business transaction they are after. They are working hard to share their faith. Something that obviously brings them happiness and goodness in their lives. Does that mean we all have to stop and listen and join? Absolutely not. But it also does not mean we should belittle, degrade, humiliate or frighten them.
I dont' remember who made the comment, but it was said something to the effect of "I don't take my godless music and placard and go door to door preaching my love for Satan" (paraphrasing)...but the point is there. If you are so sure what you believe is good, right or otherwise enlightened, why wouldn't you? Why don't any of us? Shouldn't we be doing the same thing and spread the message that we have found to be true to ourselves? Shouldn't we try to draw as many people into what we believe is happy and good and real?
If anything, this thread has taught me that I need to stand by and promote my own beliefs more. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a hypocrite.
Psh. Jack Daniel's, Jeanie.:D
I agree scum may be too harsh of a word. However, my next door neighbors are mormons. I am not an expect on the religion. But I do not agree on going door to door to make a point. And they are very aggressive to "sell" their story to anyone who will listen. Even when you tell them that they are going to far, they insist you listen to more. I have honestly slammed the door in their face because I have asked them to stop talking the talk. I have now found booklets that they have handed my kids. That's what pissed me off the most.
The "selling" seems to applies to every thing they do in life. Like they have to pitch their stance on everything. I just find it very rude. I find it very insulting. If I wanted to know about your religion I would ask. There was never any consideration on how I felt or how I feel. It's always about how they feel and how they want to share it with you.
She then throws in that she has heard that New Englanders are very stand off'ish. Well you know what....if any one hands my kids something full knowing that the parent would not allow it that is kinda of scummy if you ask me. She knew I would never accept her little booklets. But she knew my kids wouldn't know any better.
What's the difference between that and handing my kids something from a any other cult or whacko group?? Again kinda scummy if you ask me.
My disclaimer, I do not know very many mormons. But the ones I know have bothered me from the day I met them. I am not generalizing but that has been my impression for my situation.
I would take the booklets back to them and keep doing that every time. Sooner or later they will get the message.
testify to that sister. i'm gonna follow your lead.
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LMAO!!!
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Yes I agree. But children do grow up and form their own beliefs and they do have input from more than just their parents.
Unfortunately I don't agree with you here. If that is your view, then I completely respect that but if I wanted to share that view or find out more about that view I would seek you out. Arriving on my doorstep is promoting your belief and you are trying to bring me around to your way of thinking. That is "selling". You want something from me. An exchange of some kind. And with that in mind I see it the same as the cable tv guy trying to sign me up or the real estate agent looking for a commission. People have the right to do as they wish in their own homes, they are entitled to their privacy and they have the right to say no and that should be respected. Often it is not. There could very well be all kinds of things going on behind closed doors and making the assumption that people wish to hear about GOD or your view or anything else is really selfish and self absorbed in my opinion. The first time perhaps we can put it down to not knowing any better but after a while that argument wears very thin. How distressing and upsetting to be looking after a sick child, being sick yourself, just wishing to be left alone or a whole bunch of other things that people should be able to do in the privacy of their own homes, only to be bailed up by someone with an agenda of their own. I'm quite sure that if it is your mission in life to interupt people in the privacy of their homes they are well versed in the many different responses they receive. It's not ok to be violent with them, but that doesn't mean that you have to recieve them with open arms endlessly and to expect someone to do that is really unreasonable. The first 20 times I was visited I was extremely congenial but when it became apparent that what I thought was being completely ignored and that I now had "serial pests" on my doorstep then too bad if I don't bother opening the door or I decide that instead of allowing them to monopolize the conversation, I pick a subject and see if they want discuss my thoughts. I have never been nasty, or aggressive, but if rude is what it takes for you to get it or a sense that I'm pulling your leg, then so be it. There are far worse things a person can do and have done to doorstep missionaries. I sleep fine at night.
Twas me that made that comment and the reason that I do not hop on a plane and go wave my placard and godless music or anything else to the Mormons is because I already know that we do not share the same view and that's ok by me, I have no desire to change their perspective or shove my views down their throats in their own homes. I consider it disrespectful.
Just as I would consider it disrespectful if I was to attend a church service and sprout my own views on athiesm loudly to the congregation. If I go somewhere that people are worshipping, then I am respectful of their views and their customs. If you come to my house or where I am participating in something that I believe in, then I expect the same in return.
It is not hypocritical to hold a belief and not promote it. Some people don't find it necessary and that is their choice just as it is yours to promote what you believe in. Just don't be expecting people to share your views, or wish to listen to you promote them. Your beliefs are yours and you are entitled to them and how you enterpret them and discuss them with others is entirely your choice. Just as it is my right to believe what I believe and not be at all concerned that we don't share the same view, just as I don't feel the need to try to convert you to my way of thinking. We are all different. We are all entitled to our point of view and we all have the right to do what we think is good and right. We cannot however expect that we will be able to do this with everyone and not come up against disagreement at some point.
I am perfectly happy with how I have handled my interactions with people on my doorstep and you are not. As it's my doorstep I'll be continuing as I have done.
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Well that's a relief!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Dang I wish I could do that bold or colored type thing. I'll have to fudge it now.
But your first response was that children grow up and learn from the input of their parents AND others. But really, how can that happen if others don't share their points of view? Their beliefs? We would live in a terribly mono thinking environment if that were the case. Thankfully we do not.
I totally get it though. You aren't compelled to share your thoughts, your insights. That is totally fine. As you said, it is your choice.
I also agree that you have the right not to be bothered by others in your personal space. It is unfortunate that your experiences have been so negative. I cannot say I have had the same. So I am not saying you cannot choose to be left alone, my initial point in all of this was that there was no need to be negative or snide towards them. They really aren't harming anyone. Annoying maybe, but dangerous no.
I think you said you don't live in the US, so I am not sure how it works where you are, but here we simply need to ask to be taken off of their territory lists. Then they don't come but once in a few years or so to see if we have moved and someone new is living in the home. What about a no tresspassing sign?
in australia one is still allowed to have access up to and only to the front door. even with a no trepassing sign this is legal. at least that has always been my take on the situation.
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What about a big ferocious snarling dog who spits drool when he barks?
nor have i. i was justing mucking about.
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well you aren't really allowed to have a dog in your front yard. it has to be secured. and people have to be able to knock on your door. however one would imagine a big snarling drooling dog would be a way to keep the doorknockers at bay.
take a good look
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I'm sure religionists do indoctrinate their children. The rest of us simply set good examples. I do not openly ridicule religion in front of my kids. My daughter attended a local church with some of her friends for a year or two. I supported her search. I asked her questions about what she was being taught. I made sure she understood that she is the ultimate arbiter of her beliefs. My son has so far shown no interest in things religious. I grew up in a very religious home, and am now very anti-religious, but I will not do as my parents did and attempt to force beliefs.
Of course they're selling their religion. They learn not only the standard discussions, but like all good salesmen learn how to overcome objections. They learn to plant a seed and any time they get any positive affirmations to focus on those ("foot in the door" as mentioned above). Sure they are sharing their faith, but they are doing so with a quota. They all set goals for visits, discussions, baptisms, etc...
I suppose it depends on the way you approach it. If I find a great restaurant, I tell people about it, because I want the restaurant to succeed, and I want my friends to enjoy a good meal. But I don't harp on it. I don't offer to drive them to the door and pay the tab, I don't guilt them into going, I don't ring their doorbell, give them a menu, and try to get them to commit to patronzing the restaurant.
Promote away. But don't be discouraged when people like me don't care to hear it.
Bourbon is not whiskey. Its horrible.
I've only had one run in with Mormon's in the last five years or so. A guy came knocking on the door at my girlfriends house the day after my graduation. We were both well and truly hung over and she didn't even move when I tried to tell her there was someone at the door. I dragged my sorry arse out of bed and probably answered the door in boxer shorts or nude or something, I can't remember. I must have smelt like a stale brewery cause the guy actually didn't hang around for long, even when I told him I was an atheist.
I'd love for them to come round to my house when I'm in a better frame of mind - so I can invite them in and tell them all about Darwinism. Maybe give them some Richard Dawkins to read. . . .
-C Addison
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I'm not suggesting that people don't share their points of view, I'm simply taking issue with WHERE they do it, HOW they do it, and WHY they continue when it has been made clear it's not welcome. As mentioned by momofglynn it's not appropriate sometimes. It is a parents responsibility to police that for their children. Parents do it all the time. If we say that it's ok for the situation to occur as did with momofglynn and her children we really have no reason to then complain if some nutter from NAMBLA bowls up and starts discussing highly innapropriate things with our children. :eek: It's a parents role to guide their children as they grow and learn to be fully functioning individuals. I'm not for censorship but there are such things as age appropriate information as well as being respectful of a persons wishes and views. Whilst I believe that children should be exposed to a wide variety of views and beliefs it should never be at the detriment of their well being or against the wishes of their parents. For example as an Aunty I would always check with my brother or sister in law if I had concerns about a conversation or behaviour or situation that occured whilst the children are in my care. Recently we had a death in the family and my niece was old enough to ask questions and asked many of them.
I wouldn't say my experiences have been negative, they are what they are. What you have is an escalation in the mode of response based on the inability of the individuals involved to recognize and respect my point of view.
At no point have I threatened them or been abusive, I've simply chosen to talk about something that I know would offend them, when it's become apparent that they have no intention of not being offensive to me and stopping the conversation when I have requested them to. And whilst I agree that it's not "dangerous" as such, the constant arrival on my front door step in the early hours of a Saturday or Sunday morning is detrimental to my health. I do not need to be woken up for things I consider frivolous as I'm sure people with disabilities and illness do not need to be struggling to the door to be confronted by people that are unwillinging to take no for an answer. So in that respect I do consider it harmful.
Having said that I have no problem discussing people's religious beliefs in an environment or at a time that is suitable to both myself and them. I have many religious friends and while we do not share the same beliefs I am more than happy to discuss these with them if the situation arises. And I'm not beyond donating to The Salvation Army or other religious charities if I deem the cause worthy. It's not like I haven't purchased more than a few Watchtowers and the like in my time.
There is no law that says they cannot enter my property, actually we have to allow access for things like meter readers and census collectors and the like, and we have to keep any dogs away from the path to the front door in order to ensure the safety of the "visitor". We do have a "Do Not Call" register for telemarketers that you can register with, and we are able to put signs on our letter boxes and by the front door. I have a sign on the letter box regarding advertising material. It's crossed my mind to have a sign by the door but really, when the kids from the local school come calling looking for donations, or sponsorship in their read-a-thon or walk-a-thon or to sell raffle tickets or the Heart Foundation or other charitable organization is doing a door knock, I really wouldn't want them to think that they weren't welcome. And I would never dream of having a sign on the house that said specifically religious people not welcome. No I think I'll just muddle along with the no thank you and when they persist we shall discuss something that I know they'll find distasteful. I'd prefer it wasn't that way, but no thank you means no thank you so if you think it doesn't apply I guess I have no choice than to start talking about Satan.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
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ooh ooh let me have a go.
satan rocks
damn that american spelling.
edit: WOOHOO!! i did it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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hehe!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Yeah.....nah! :rolleyes: Lukin has been going off like a frog in a sock when people knock on the front door and it's scared away no one. They know I have him inside with me because you can hear him, but it doesn't stop them knocking.
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i was thinking more like cujo.
take a good look
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GO CATE!!!!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
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hehe!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Which? The bourbon or the whiskey?
Tis Bundy all the way for me or vodka.
Nice work scott! On the graduation and the naked, hangover athiest response!
My Dad got sweet on one of the girls that used to come around, not sure which religion, but he always invited her in and listened to what she had to say, until she wised up and realized that he was angling for a dinner date!
Do you remember those blokes in Melbourne that invited the Mormons in and served them hash cookies?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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that is brilliant. i wanna do that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
nope. our child is almost three.........if he finds god, he'll have to do it on his own.
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Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Do they have kids? How about you give them some alcohol next time ya see them... or a cigarette
dammit, give her kids something you know she wouldn't appreciate and see how she likes it... oh I hope she has kids.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you