Should Keeping Abortions legal be left up to the States?

DriftingByTheStorm

mammasan wrote:

How is it dishonest?

Because a fetus is ALIVE.
That little tiny heart you see beating on the ultrasound?

Duh!

macgyver06 wrote:

and dude... option b... you know how moronic you sound...lol

SO the idea that freedom, rights, and liberty come NECESSARILY DEPENDENT upon duty, personal responsibility and good moral judgement is moronic to you?
:(

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Because a fetus is ALIVE.
That little tiny heart you see beating on the ultrasound?

Duh!


SO the idea that freedom, rights, and liberty come NECESSARILY DEPENDENT upon duty, personal responsibility and good moral judgement is moronic to you?
:(

the heart pumps blood through the body..if it comes out of you and is left unattended..it stops beating after some time. as science improves and we get older... we are noW determining a pregnancy within days before the beating even happens...

your stance in a society that allows and tolerates greed and outcasting its young citizens... your stance is tough luck... you will do what i say with your body and thats the end of story....

this thought process is beyond me

DriftingByTheStorm

macgyver06 wrote:

the heart pumps blood through the body..if it comes out of you and is left unattended..it stops beating after some time. as science improves and we get older... we are not determining a pregnancy within days before the beating even happens...

your stance in a society that allows and tolerates greed and outcasting its young citizens... your stance is tough luck... you will do what i say with your body and thats the end of story....

this thought process is beyond me

If THE PEOPLE think abortion violates some moral code, is unethical, or otherwise unacceptable, the PEOPLE should be able to vote against such a practice.

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about when you talk about "within days before that heart starts beating" ... a fetus, whether you like it or not, is a LIVING COLLECTION OF CELLS FROM INCEPTION ... we can argue when it becomes a human all day, but to pretend like you are just chopping up a potato is fundamentaly dishonest. Hell, even a potato is ALIVE, ya'll would ALL admit that, i hope.

And i don't know WHAT the fuck you are talking about when you say i "tolerate greed" and "outcasting its young citizens", but you can fuck off with the prejudgement.

And as for your first sentence about the heart pumping blood and stopping, what the fuck are you even ranting about?

You are starting to sound like that slow kid that used to post in here, that we all tried to be supportive of, but secretely laughed at. (WHAT was that guys name!??!)

See those LIVING cells?
Thats all i really am trying to get across. I'm not some rabid pro-lifer.
I just get sick of hearing people argue that it "isn't a life until it's born". which is retarded.

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

If THE PEOPLE think abortion violates some moral code, is unethical, or otherwise unacceptable, the PEOPLE should be able to vote against such a practice.

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about when you talk about "within days before that heart starts beating" ... a fetus, whether you like it or not, is a LIVING COLLECTION OF CELLS FROM INCEPTION ... we can argue when it becomes a human all day, but to pretend like you are just chopping up a potato is fundamentaly dishonest. Hell, even a potato is ALIVE, ya'll would ALL admit that, i hope.

And i don't know WHAT the fuck you are talking about when you say i "tolerate greed" and "outcasting its young citizens", but you can fuck off with the prejudgement.

And as for your first sentence about the heart pumping blood and stopping, what the fuck are you even ranting about?

You are starting to sound like that slow kid that used to post in here, that we all tried to be supportive of, but secretely laughed at. (WHAT was that guys name!??!)

you cant control a persons mind. its personal choice ultimately. you cant see that and im sorry for you.. but it wont be made illegal and ron paul wont become president

DriftingByTheStorm

macgyver06 wrote:

you cant control a persons mind. its personal choice ultimately.

So is 1st degree murder.
What is your point?

People do bad things everyday.
It doesn't mean we should sanction it.

Sorry you don't "see that", myself.

Again, i could care less if someone gets an abortion.
Just don't give me some crap about how its not alive, and its "your choice" so there. People should be responsible with their bodies and actions. You can't even agree that people should be responsible for their actions. You just seem to think that since science has figured out away to "solve the problem", it should be acceptable.

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So is 1st degree murder.
What is your point?

People do bad things everyday.
It doesn't mean we should sanction it.

Sorry you don't "see that", myself.

Again, i could care less if someone gets an abortion.
Just don't give me some crap about how its not alive, and its "your choice" so there. People should be responsible with their bodies and actions. You can't even agree that people should be responsible for their actions. You just seem to think that since science has figured out away to "solve the problem", it should be acceptable.

this process can prevent girls from having to make a terrible decision which will send them to jail for life... why would you want to be a part of that when there are proven ways to help these kids out... not everyone is as privaledged with education like us...not everyone can think like this..and fuck.. NOT EVRYONE IS A GUY WHO DOESNT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING PREGNANT IN THIS COUNTRY

which is terrifying to these kids... go to a school and ask them... they are talking about suicide as an alternative..

onelongsong

macgyver06 wrote:

keeping abortions legal keeps children from getting thrown in garbage cans and stabbed.. are you aware of this??

girls keeping their legs closed prevents unwanted pregnancies. are YOU aware of this?

onelongsong

macgyver06 wrote:

Note: The Title of this thread says nothing about the death penalty..

i thought it said abortion. abortion is the death penalty for the innocent. no trial; no judge; no jury.

mammasan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Because a fetus is ALIVE.
That little tiny heart you see beating on the ultrasound?

Duh!


SO the idea that freedom, rights, and liberty come NECESSARILY DEPENDENT upon duty, personal responsibility and good moral judgement is moronic to you?
:(

You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.

macgyver06

mammasan wrote:

You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.

conscience........well put

DriftingByTheStorm

mammasan wrote:

You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.

The fact that you can use words like "brain" and "lungs" in the same sentence as "not a life" shows how neanderthal and self-serving your argument is.

Again, i DON'T CARE if you have an abortion. In fact, all you have to say is "like fish, that fetus IS alive, but HAS NO FEELINGS" and i'm fine. Great. Kill the emotionless, non-feeling fetus.

But even mentioning that the item in question has "not fully formed LUNGS and BRAIN" is clear evidence that even scientific observation is not capable of swaying you to the belief that something is living.

If you don't belive it is "life", then you must believe that all babies are rendered through some magic from whence animate LIFE is brought about through biologic alchemy -- rendering life from inanimate objects? That sounds like a hop skip and a jump away from creationism.

???

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.

if i steal your car; and disassemble it; can i still be arrested for car theft? there is not a car to be found as evidence.

what about test tube babies? upon conception; they are fetuses surviving outside the womb.

you can dance your way around it so you sleep better; but that fetus has a 99% chance of developing into a human baby if undisturbed. in fact; the word fetus is the name we give an unborn child.

since when is it between the parents? the woman has all the authority. a girlfriend killed my baby. i still wonder about that child 16 years later. you can call it whatever you want; she killed my child and no amount of reasoning around it will change my mind. she killed my child.

mammasan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

The fact that you can use words like "brain" and "lungs" in the same sentence as "not a life" shows how neanderthal and self-serving your argument is.

Again, i DON'T CARE if you have an abortion. In fact, all you have to say is "like fish, that fetus IS alive, but HAS NO FEELINGS" and i'm fine. Great. Kill the emotionless, non-feeling fetus.

But even mentioning that the item in question has "not fully formed LUNGS and BRAIN" is clear evidence that even scientific observation is not capable of swaying you to the belief that something is living.

If you don't belive it is "life", then you must believe that all babies are rendered through some magic from whence animate LIFE is brought about through biologic alchemy -- rendering life from inanimate objects? That sounds like a hop skip and a jump away from creationism.

???

First off I'm not some ignorant child so cut the fucking condecending tone. You want to have a discussion/debate about abortion I'm all for it but if you are going to act like some fucking pompous ass who thinks that he knows better or is better than others simply because they don't share his view than you can go fuck yourself.

Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life because it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is my opinion that one a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, even if it takes life support measures to do so, it is a viable life. Your points are just as valid as mine I just choice to see it my way because that is my right to do so. It is my belief that abortion is an issues best left to the parents and their conscience, god, karma what ever the hell you want to call it. I personally would never get an abortion, if I was female, or expect/ask my girlfriend to get one. Not because I believe it to be wrong or immoral or unethical. Simply because I love my children and could never imagine having to live with the thought of what could have been. Of course this is easy for me to say because a) I'm not a woman and b) my shop has been closed for 3 years now.

You may not like my stance on the issue and I really don't care if you don't, but don't for one second think that I am some sort of heartless neaderthal who believes that babies are produced through "biologic alchemy".

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.

what's the difference between a murderer locked in a small cell for life and a fetus locked in a womb for 9 months? this is why i don't understand why those against the death penalty are pro abortion. it's so hypocritical. sanctioned killing is sanctioned killing.
a woman will have a baby in 8 months; after an abortion; that woman won't have that baby in 8 months. somewhere there's a missing baby. IN A BLOODY GARBAGE CAN.
taking away a life is taking away a life.

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

if i steal your car; and disassemble it; can i still be arrested for car theft? there is not a car to be found as evidence.

what about test tube babies? upon conception; they are fetuses surviving outside the womb.

you can dance your way around it so you sleep better; but that fetus has a 99% chance of developing into a human baby if undisturbed. in fact; the word fetus is the name we give an unborn child.

since when is it between the parents? the woman has all the authority. a girlfriend killed my baby. i still wonder about that child 16 years later. you can call it whatever you want; she killed my child and no amount of reasoning around it will change my mind. she killed my child.

I'm not going to continue this rediculous merry-go-round. I have my views when it comes to abortion and you have yours. I respect your opinion and really don't care if anyone respects mine. No one has the right answers when it comes to abortion because much of what we belive is driven by emotions instead of logic. To be completely honest I could give a flying fuck about abortion. To me it's pretty much a secondary issue when it comes to politics.

As far as a man not having a say, a lot of things have happened in the last 16 years. If the father of the child wants that baby to be born he can go to court and fight it and he will win.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

First off I'm not some ignorant child so cut the fucking condecending tone. You want to have a discussion/debate about abortion I'm all for it but if you are going to act like some fucking pompous ass who thinks that he knows better or is better than others simply because they don't share his view than you can go fuck yourself.

Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life because it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is my opinion that one a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, even if it takes life support measures to do so, it is a viable life. Your points are just as valid as mine I just choice to see it my way because that is my right to do so. It is my belief that abortion is an issues best left to the parents and their conscience, god, karma what ever the hell you want to call it. I personally would never get an abortion, if I was female, or expect/ask my girlfriend to get one. Not because I believe it to be wrong or immoral or unethical. Simply because I love my children and could never imagine having to live with the thought of what could have been. Of course this is easy for me to say because a) I'm not a woman and b) my shop has been closed for 3 years now.

You may not like my stance on the issue and I really don't care if you don't, but don't for one second think that I am some sort of heartless neaderthal who believes that babies are produced through "biologic alchemy".

i see what you're saying; but that murderer cannot exist outside of that cell in society. and as a father; i'd think you'd want a say in the disposition of your child. the child my gf killed 16 years ago still haunts me. i still love that child. i miss that child.

DriftingByTheStorm

mammasan wrote:

Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life[...]

THIS is why i'm arguing with you.

I have stated MULTIPLE times in this thread that i could give two shits about girls having abortions. Aside from the federal interventionist issue, the ONLY thing i take exception to is people pretending like they aren't extinguishing a life.

You are ADDING MODIFIERS TO THE TERM. STOP!

WTF does VIABLE have to do with the term "LIFE"?

It is either a LIVING ORGANISM or it is NON LIVING.

When you have an abortion,
are you destroying a LIVING organism?
Yes or No?

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

i see what you're saying; but that murderer cannot exist outside of that cell in society. and as a father; i'd think you'd want a say in the disposition of your child. the child my gf killed 16 years ago still haunts me. i still love that child. i miss that child.

Well that is truely unfortunate. As I stated before I think that father's rights have made progress since then. I would believe that if the father was willing to raise the child that the women should not be allowed to have the abortion.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

I'm not going to continue this rediculous merry-go-round. I have my views when it comes to abortion and you have yours. I respect your opinion and really don't care if anyone respects mine. No one has the right answers when it comes to abortion because much of what we belive is driven by emotions instead of logic. To be completely honest I could give a flying fuck about abortion. To me it's pretty much a secondary issue when it comes to politics.

As far as a man not having a say, a lot of things have happened in the last 16 years. If the father of the child wants that baby to be born he can go to court and fight it and he will win.

YOU KNOW I RESPECT YOU. we've been friends for years now. i'm trying to understand why you feel the way you do. if you want to walk away from the conversation; fine; but don't say i don't respect you or your views because i do and you know it.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

Well that is truely unfortunate. As I stated before I think that father's rights have made progress since then. I would believe that if the father was willing to raise the child that the women should not be allowed to have the abortion.

THANK YOU.