You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.
The fact that you can use words like "brain" and "lungs" in the same sentence as "not a life" shows how neanderthal and self-serving your argument is.
Again, i DON'T CARE if you have an abortion. In fact, all you have to say is "like fish, that fetus IS alive, but HAS NO FEELINGS" and i'm fine. Great. Kill the emotionless, non-feeling fetus.
But even mentioning that the item in question has "not fully formed LUNGS and BRAIN" is clear evidence that even scientific observation is not capable of swaying you to the belief that something is living.
If you don't belive it is "life", then you must believe that all babies are rendered through some magic from whence animate LIFE is brought about through biologic alchemy -- rendering life from inanimate objects? That sounds like a hop skip and a jump away from creationism.
???
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.
if i steal your car; and disassemble it; can i still be arrested for car theft? there is not a car to be found as evidence.
what about test tube babies? upon conception; they are fetuses surviving outside the womb.
you can dance your way around it so you sleep better; but that fetus has a 99% chance of developing into a human baby if undisturbed. in fact; the word fetus is the name we give an unborn child.
since when is it between the parents? the woman has all the authority. a girlfriend killed my baby. i still wonder about that child 16 years later. you can call it whatever you want; she killed my child and no amount of reasoning around it will change my mind. she killed my child.
The fact that you can use words like "brain" and "lungs" in the same sentence as "not a life" shows how neanderthal and self-serving your argument is.
Again, i DON'T CARE if you have an abortion. In fact, all you have to say is "like fish, that fetus IS alive, but HAS NO FEELINGS" and i'm fine. Great. Kill the emotionless, non-feeling fetus.
But even mentioning that the item in question has "not fully formed LUNGS and BRAIN" is clear evidence that even scientific observation is not capable of swaying you to the belief that something is living.
If you don't belive it is "life", then you must believe that all babies are rendered through some magic from whence animate LIFE is brought about through biologic alchemy -- rendering life from inanimate objects? That sounds like a hop skip and a jump away from creationism.
???
First off I'm not some ignorant child so cut the fucking condecending tone. You want to have a discussion/debate about abortion I'm all for it but if you are going to act like some fucking pompous ass who thinks that he knows better or is better than others simply because they don't share his view than you can go fuck yourself.
Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life because it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is my opinion that one a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, even if it takes life support measures to do so, it is a viable life. Your points are just as valid as mine I just choice to see it my way because that is my right to do so. It is my belief that abortion is an issues best left to the parents and their conscience, god, karma what ever the hell you want to call it. I personally would never get an abortion, if I was female, or expect/ask my girlfriend to get one. Not because I believe it to be wrong or immoral or unethical. Simply because I love my children and could never imagine having to live with the thought of what could have been. Of course this is easy for me to say because a) I'm not a woman and b) my shop has been closed for 3 years now.
You may not like my stance on the issue and I really don't care if you don't, but don't for one second think that I am some sort of heartless neaderthal who believes that babies are produced through "biologic alchemy".
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
You do realize that a fetus prior to 25 weeks of gestation is incapable of surviving outside the womb. The brain and lungs have not fully formed at this point and even provinging every life support measure known to man will not help it live. To me that does not equal a life. You have evry right to believe that it is a life but don't believe for a second that that makes you right. This also applies to me that is why abortion is personal issue between the parents and their conscience.
what's the difference between a murderer locked in a small cell for life and a fetus locked in a womb for 9 months? this is why i don't understand why those against the death penalty are pro abortion. it's so hypocritical. sanctioned killing is sanctioned killing.
a woman will have a baby in 8 months; after an abortion; that woman won't have that baby in 8 months. somewhere there's a missing baby. IN A BLOODY GARBAGE CAN.
taking away a life is taking away a life.
if i steal your car; and disassemble it; can i still be arrested for car theft? there is not a car to be found as evidence.
what about test tube babies? upon conception; they are fetuses surviving outside the womb.
you can dance your way around it so you sleep better; but that fetus has a 99% chance of developing into a human baby if undisturbed. in fact; the word fetus is the name we give an unborn child.
since when is it between the parents? the woman has all the authority. a girlfriend killed my baby. i still wonder about that child 16 years later. you can call it whatever you want; she killed my child and no amount of reasoning around it will change my mind. she killed my child.
I'm not going to continue this rediculous merry-go-round. I have my views when it comes to abortion and you have yours. I respect your opinion and really don't care if anyone respects mine. No one has the right answers when it comes to abortion because much of what we belive is driven by emotions instead of logic. To be completely honest I could give a flying fuck about abortion. To me it's pretty much a secondary issue when it comes to politics.
As far as a man not having a say, a lot of things have happened in the last 16 years. If the father of the child wants that baby to be born he can go to court and fight it and he will win.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
First off I'm not some ignorant child so cut the fucking condecending tone. You want to have a discussion/debate about abortion I'm all for it but if you are going to act like some fucking pompous ass who thinks that he knows better or is better than others simply because they don't share his view than you can go fuck yourself.
Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life because it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is my opinion that one a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, even if it takes life support measures to do so, it is a viable life. Your points are just as valid as mine I just choice to see it my way because that is my right to do so. It is my belief that abortion is an issues best left to the parents and their conscience, god, karma what ever the hell you want to call it. I personally would never get an abortion, if I was female, or expect/ask my girlfriend to get one. Not because I believe it to be wrong or immoral or unethical. Simply because I love my children and could never imagine having to live with the thought of what could have been. Of course this is easy for me to say because a) I'm not a woman and b) my shop has been closed for 3 years now.
You may not like my stance on the issue and I really don't care if you don't, but don't for one second think that I am some sort of heartless neaderthal who believes that babies are produced through "biologic alchemy".
i see what you're saying; but that murderer cannot exist outside of that cell in society. and as a father; i'd think you'd want a say in the disposition of your child. the child my gf killed 16 years ago still haunts me. i still love that child. i miss that child.
Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life[...]
THIS is why i'm arguing with you.
I have stated MULTIPLE times in this thread that i could give two shits about girls having abortions. Aside from the federal interventionist issue, the ONLY thing i take exception to is people pretending like they aren't extinguishing a life.
You are ADDING MODIFIERS TO THE TERM. STOP!
WTF does VIABLE have to do with the term "LIFE"?
It is either a LIVING ORGANISM or it is NON LIVING.
When you have an abortion,
are you destroying a LIVING organism?
Yes or No?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
i see what you're saying; but that murderer cannot exist outside of that cell in society. and as a father; i'd think you'd want a say in the disposition of your child. the child my gf killed 16 years ago still haunts me. i still love that child. i miss that child.
Well that is truely unfortunate. As I stated before I think that father's rights have made progress since then. I would believe that if the father was willing to raise the child that the women should not be allowed to have the abortion.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm not going to continue this rediculous merry-go-round. I have my views when it comes to abortion and you have yours. I respect your opinion and really don't care if anyone respects mine. No one has the right answers when it comes to abortion because much of what we belive is driven by emotions instead of logic. To be completely honest I could give a flying fuck about abortion. To me it's pretty much a secondary issue when it comes to politics.
As far as a man not having a say, a lot of things have happened in the last 16 years. If the father of the child wants that baby to be born he can go to court and fight it and he will win.
YOU KNOW I RESPECT YOU. we've been friends for years now. i'm trying to understand why you feel the way you do. if you want to walk away from the conversation; fine; but don't say i don't respect you or your views because i do and you know it.
Well that is truely unfortunate. As I stated before I think that father's rights have made progress since then. I would believe that if the father was willing to raise the child that the women should not be allowed to have the abortion.
I have stated MULTIPLE times in this thread that i could give two shits about girls having abortions. Aside from the federal interventionist issue, the ONLY thing i take exception to is people pretending like they aren't extinguishing a life.
You are ADDING MODIFIERS TO THE TERM. STOP!
WTF does VIABLE have to do with the term "LIFE"?
It is either a LIVING ORGANISM or it is NON LIVING.
When you have an abortion,
are you destroying a LIVING organism?
Yes or No?
If it is prior to the 25 week gestation period no. If it is after that period then yes. You can argue with me till you turn blue in the face. My mind is made up on this issue and only advancements in science can cause me to change my mind.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
YOU KNOW I RESPECT YOU. we've been friends for years now. i'm trying to understand why you feel the way you do. if you want to walk away from the conversation; fine; but don't say i don't respect you or your views because i do and you know it.
I apologize I was more frustrated at driftings condecending tone and it carried over to my responce to you.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
If it is prior to the 25 week gestation period no. If it is after that period then yes. You can argue with me till you turn blue in the face. My mind is made up on this issue and only advancements in science can cause me to change my mind.
So before 25 weeks, if it is not living, what is it?
It is not an independent life form as it cannot and never will survive once it is seperated from it's host. So up until that point it is a part of the mother. After that point it can survive independentaly of it's host so it is an independent life form all on it's own.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
It is not an independent life form as it cannot and never will survive once it is seperated from it's host. So up until that point it is a part of the mother. After that point it can survive independentaly of it's host so it is an independent life form all on it's own.
So are tape worms not "independent life" (again with the modifiers)?
What about other internal parasites? ALL of which can NOT exist outside of their "host".
?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
When someone claims that a lifeform that is agreed upon to be an independent living entity by scientists is NOT so, i don't have to "think" i've "tricked" someone.
I simply acknowledge that i'm dealing with someone who isn't arguing on real logical grounds and walk away.
That is ALL i meant by "no further questions".
As in, "there is no point in continuing this argument, since you aren't even functioning within the parameters of generaly accepted logic."
Look at all these forms of non-independed life. Unlike a fetus, these things actualy go beyond consuming and excreting nutrients. They actualy REPRODUCE. Yet, they are, according to some of you, NOT independent life.
:rolleyes:
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
When someone claims that a lifeform that is agreed upon to be an independent living entity by scientists is NOT so, i don't have to "think" i've "tricked" someone.
I simply acknowledge that i'm dealing with someone who isn't arguing on real logical grounds and walk away.
That is ALL i meant by "no further questions".
As in, "there is no point in continuing this argument, since you aren't even functioning within the parameters of generaly accepted logic."
Look at all these forms of non-independed life. Unlike a fetus, these things actualy go beyond consuming and excreting nutrients. They actualy REPRODUCE. Yet, they are, according to some of you, NOT independent life.
:rolleyes:
Any moron who completed high school knows that a tapeworms is an independent life form. I merely answered the way I did because I tire of dealing with pompous jack asses who feel that they are better than others simply because there views are not similiar. So I do agree with you, you didn't trick me because I didn't fall for it. Had I answered yes, which is the correct answer, you would have then compared tapeworms to fetuses. So by answering no I spared myself from having to listen to you preach from your soapbox.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I apologize I was more frustrated at driftings condecending tone and it carried over to my responce to you.
that's ok. i understand.
i made a baby that i'll never see. never hold; never teach to drive; never attend it's wedding; never watch grow up. that child was made from love. i loved the mother and the child we conceived.
i really don't care what other people do. it's not my cross to bear. they'll answer for the things they do. but i was on my knees in that abortion clinic begging her not to kill my child. i sat outside and cried for that child when they took her back. almost a year later we married and then she wanted that child. after 2 years of trying to have another child we divorced because she turned to cocaine. it's been 16 years and she's unable to have children because of that abortion.
i'm just conveying my feelings. i'm not saying they're right.
The federal government should get involved when an individuals Constitutional rights are being trampled on by the majority, but as it has been stated already, the Constitution does not protect a woman's right to choose. And since it is not outlined specifically in the Constitution it is then left up to the states. Like FFG said if people want a woman's right to choose protected by the constitution then people need to start pressuring their federal representatives to put forth a motion to have the Constitution amended to include that right.
There is no need for a constitutional amendment to further enumerate rights. Hamilton thought it would be dangerous to have a bill of rights altogether. By outlining rights it provides a pretext for government powers which were not granted. Hamilton and Madison settled for the ninth amendment to clarify. The people surrender nothing. Rights are unalienable. Powers are granted. Nowhere was the government granted power over reproductive decisions.
All I want to know is how come when a woman gets pregnant and wants to she says "I'm having a baby!" and not "I have a fetus growing inside me with the potential to grow into a fully-developed and independent human being!".
Is it total situational ethics? Wanted child=baby, Unwanted child=something else?
Life begins at conception. Given the technology we have now to see human life develop so early and so quickly I don't know how we can comfortably claim otherwise.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
All I want to know is how come when a woman gets pregnant and wants to she says "I'm having a baby" and not "I have a fetus growing inside me with the potential to grow into an independent human being".
Every time I rub one out, I think of the potential.. the way I see it, life is harsh. As it is, there are too many people on this bubble we call earth. Not everything deserves a chance. If you make it to where you are, be grateful and love the ones around you.. You can ask "what if" all you want, but you will only loose your mind. Think of the infinite potentials there could be.. something tells me that in the end, we are all part of the same intuition..
Comments
The fact that you can use words like "brain" and "lungs" in the same sentence as "not a life" shows how neanderthal and self-serving your argument is.
Again, i DON'T CARE if you have an abortion. In fact, all you have to say is "like fish, that fetus IS alive, but HAS NO FEELINGS" and i'm fine. Great. Kill the emotionless, non-feeling fetus.
But even mentioning that the item in question has "not fully formed LUNGS and BRAIN" is clear evidence that even scientific observation is not capable of swaying you to the belief that something is living.
If you don't belive it is "life", then you must believe that all babies are rendered through some magic from whence animate LIFE is brought about through biologic alchemy -- rendering life from inanimate objects? That sounds like a hop skip and a jump away from creationism.
???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
if i steal your car; and disassemble it; can i still be arrested for car theft? there is not a car to be found as evidence.
what about test tube babies? upon conception; they are fetuses surviving outside the womb.
you can dance your way around it so you sleep better; but that fetus has a 99% chance of developing into a human baby if undisturbed. in fact; the word fetus is the name we give an unborn child.
since when is it between the parents? the woman has all the authority. a girlfriend killed my baby. i still wonder about that child 16 years later. you can call it whatever you want; she killed my child and no amount of reasoning around it will change my mind. she killed my child.
First off I'm not some ignorant child so cut the fucking condecending tone. You want to have a discussion/debate about abortion I'm all for it but if you are going to act like some fucking pompous ass who thinks that he knows better or is better than others simply because they don't share his view than you can go fuck yourself.
Medically speaking that fetus is not a viable life because it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is my opinion that one a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, even if it takes life support measures to do so, it is a viable life. Your points are just as valid as mine I just choice to see it my way because that is my right to do so. It is my belief that abortion is an issues best left to the parents and their conscience, god, karma what ever the hell you want to call it. I personally would never get an abortion, if I was female, or expect/ask my girlfriend to get one. Not because I believe it to be wrong or immoral or unethical. Simply because I love my children and could never imagine having to live with the thought of what could have been. Of course this is easy for me to say because a) I'm not a woman and b) my shop has been closed for 3 years now.
You may not like my stance on the issue and I really don't care if you don't, but don't for one second think that I am some sort of heartless neaderthal who believes that babies are produced through "biologic alchemy".
what's the difference between a murderer locked in a small cell for life and a fetus locked in a womb for 9 months? this is why i don't understand why those against the death penalty are pro abortion. it's so hypocritical. sanctioned killing is sanctioned killing.
a woman will have a baby in 8 months; after an abortion; that woman won't have that baby in 8 months. somewhere there's a missing baby. IN A BLOODY GARBAGE CAN.
taking away a life is taking away a life.
I'm not going to continue this rediculous merry-go-round. I have my views when it comes to abortion and you have yours. I respect your opinion and really don't care if anyone respects mine. No one has the right answers when it comes to abortion because much of what we belive is driven by emotions instead of logic. To be completely honest I could give a flying fuck about abortion. To me it's pretty much a secondary issue when it comes to politics.
As far as a man not having a say, a lot of things have happened in the last 16 years. If the father of the child wants that baby to be born he can go to court and fight it and he will win.
i see what you're saying; but that murderer cannot exist outside of that cell in society. and as a father; i'd think you'd want a say in the disposition of your child. the child my gf killed 16 years ago still haunts me. i still love that child. i miss that child.
THIS is why i'm arguing with you.
I have stated MULTIPLE times in this thread that i could give two shits about girls having abortions. Aside from the federal interventionist issue, the ONLY thing i take exception to is people pretending like they aren't extinguishing a life.
You are ADDING MODIFIERS TO THE TERM. STOP!
WTF does VIABLE have to do with the term "LIFE"?
It is either a LIVING ORGANISM or it is NON LIVING.
When you have an abortion,
are you destroying a LIVING organism?
Yes or No?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Well that is truely unfortunate. As I stated before I think that father's rights have made progress since then. I would believe that if the father was willing to raise the child that the women should not be allowed to have the abortion.
YOU KNOW I RESPECT YOU. we've been friends for years now. i'm trying to understand why you feel the way you do. if you want to walk away from the conversation; fine; but don't say i don't respect you or your views because i do and you know it.
THANK YOU.
If it is prior to the 25 week gestation period no. If it is after that period then yes. You can argue with me till you turn blue in the face. My mind is made up on this issue and only advancements in science can cause me to change my mind.
I apologize I was more frustrated at driftings condecending tone and it carried over to my responce to you.
So before 25 weeks, if it is not living, what is it?
Picture of a 12 Week Old Face - Not Alive
12 Week Old Moving Inanimate Object
If I opened it now would you not understand?
It is not an independent life form as it cannot and never will survive once it is seperated from it's host. So up until that point it is a part of the mother. After that point it can survive independentaly of it's host so it is an independent life form all on it's own.
It looks like the alien from the X-Files movie.
So are tape worms not "independent life" (again with the modifiers)?
What about other internal parasites? ALL of which can NOT exist outside of their "host".
?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
No they are not independent life forms.
no further questions, your honor.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
i know you think you tricked him...but you didnt
of course everythings feeds off something else to live...and we are independent within a life cycle... even parasites, however this proves nothing.
and i know you think your a boy scout when it comes to morals.....and thats cool....thats cool...but what im trying to say is
seahorses dont use condoms
When someone claims that a lifeform that is agreed upon to be an independent living entity by scientists is NOT so, i don't have to "think" i've "tricked" someone.
I simply acknowledge that i'm dealing with someone who isn't arguing on real logical grounds and walk away.
That is ALL i meant by "no further questions".
As in, "there is no point in continuing this argument, since you aren't even functioning within the parameters of generaly accepted logic."
Look at all these forms of non-independed life. Unlike a fetus, these things actualy go beyond consuming and excreting nutrients. They actualy REPRODUCE. Yet, they are, according to some of you, NOT independent life.
:rolleyes:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Any moron who completed high school knows that a tapeworms is an independent life form. I merely answered the way I did because I tire of dealing with pompous jack asses who feel that they are better than others simply because there views are not similiar. So I do agree with you, you didn't trick me because I didn't fall for it. Had I answered yes, which is the correct answer, you would have then compared tapeworms to fetuses. So by answering no I spared myself from having to listen to you preach from your soapbox.
that's ok. i understand.
i made a baby that i'll never see. never hold; never teach to drive; never attend it's wedding; never watch grow up. that child was made from love. i loved the mother and the child we conceived.
i really don't care what other people do. it's not my cross to bear. they'll answer for the things they do. but i was on my knees in that abortion clinic begging her not to kill my child. i sat outside and cried for that child when they took her back. almost a year later we married and then she wanted that child. after 2 years of trying to have another child we divorced because she turned to cocaine. it's been 16 years and she's unable to have children because of that abortion.
i'm just conveying my feelings. i'm not saying they're right.
There is no need for a constitutional amendment to further enumerate rights. Hamilton thought it would be dangerous to have a bill of rights altogether. By outlining rights it provides a pretext for government powers which were not granted. Hamilton and Madison settled for the ninth amendment to clarify. The people surrender nothing. Rights are unalienable. Powers are granted. Nowhere was the government granted power over reproductive decisions.
Is it total situational ethics? Wanted child=baby, Unwanted child=something else?
Life begins at conception. Given the technology we have now to see human life develop so early and so quickly I don't know how we can comfortably claim otherwise.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul