the system is flawed

El_Kabong

cincybearcat wrote:

Yep, you can call it whatever you like, it certainly is a "landslide" in the traditional sense. But in reality many people didn;t vote for Obama and I'm glad he mentioned it and I hope he pays attention to it, unlike W.

it was nice that he said he would work hard to earn the votes that weren't cast for him, unlike many here who just want to get pissy b/c ppl didn't vote for him

El_Kabong

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

I hope you are being sarcastic but in case you are not:

California = 55 electoral votes with 38MIL approx people ....

Texas = 34 electoral votes with 24MIL aprox people...

NY = 31 electoral votes number 3 in the nation in population ...

FL= 27 electoral votes numer 4 in population....

You see the trend? doesnt really look that flawed now does it?

yes, i call a system where someone can have more of the popular vote but still lose as a 'flawed system' we need something like instant runoff voting

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

i understand metaphor...but sorry if i find a 'motionless wave' a poor one.




and we all are there right now.

for the sake of the anal retentive crowd:
a wave can not build if the water in which the wave will be created remains motionless or as close to it as water in an ocean can be

i don't see how obama could have changed policy when he hasn't even been sworn in. you all say this administration will pave the way of change, i will wait for it b/c from his website and what he said (tho what he said seemed to change depending on what crowd he was talking to) it seemed like more of the same as far as 'answers'

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

for the sake of the anal retentive crowd:
a wave can not build if the water in which the wave will be created remains motionless or as close to it as water in an ocean can be

i don't see how obama could have changed policy when he hasn't even been sworn in. you all say this administration will pave the way of change, i will wait for it b/c from his website and what he said (tho what he said seemed to change depending on what crowd he was talking to) it seemed like more of the same as far as 'answers'

yay for the anal-retentive!

and yes...thanks, i know. so again, not a wave......i *got* the metaphor in it's entirety, excuse me if even after your further explaination it just personally doesn't do it for me. it wasn't a 'failure' as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post....just my own personal lack of appreciation. perhaps others enjoy it.


as to obama, who said he changed policy yet?

all i said was 'change comes in waves'....mostly as a play on being on a pj board...thus pj lyrics, and sure the symbolism of such. i in no way insinuated obama HAS created change yet.....just that it builds, takes time....like a wave. i see obama's election as the beginning of the wave. that's all. obviously you don't....and neither of us will 'know' until more time passes.



anyhoo...yes, the system is flawed. i said as much in my very first post. i aslo asked, can anyone point me to a system that is NOT flawed? there isn't...b/c no such system exists, not created by humanity in any case. we are flawed beings, stands to reason we create flawed systems. this is not to suggest i do not believe we shouldn't work to improve said systems....absolutely, we should! but acknowledging something is flawed, in and of itself..dosn't say much. pretty much all we create has inherent flaws, doesn't mean it's entirely without merit.

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

yay for the anal-retentive!

and yes...thanks, i know. so again, not a wave......i *got* the metaphor in it's entirety, excuse me if even after your further explaination it just personally doesn't do it for me. it wasn't a 'failure' as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post....just my own personal lack of appreciation. perhaps others enjoy it.


as to obama, who said he changed policy yet?

all i said was 'change comes in waves'....mostly as a play on being on a pj board...thus pj lyrics, and sure the symbolism of such. i in no way insinuated obama HAS created change yet.....just that it builds, takes time....like a wave. i see obama's election as the beginning of the wave. that's all. obviously you don't....and neither of us will 'know' until more time passes.



anyhoo...yes, the system is flawed. i said as much in my very first post. i aslo asked, can anyone point me to a system that is NOT flawed? there isn't...b/c no such system exists, not created by humanity in any case. we are flawed beings, stands to reason we create flawed systems. this is not to suggest i do not believe we shouldn't work to improve said systems....absolutely, we should! but acknowledging something is flawed, in and of itself..dosn't say much. pretty much all we create has inherent flaws, doesn't mean it's entirely without merit.

then why support the flaws and continue to allow them to exist?

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

then why support the flaws and continue to allow them to exist?

if you voted in this election, for nader as i would imagine...aren't you STILL supporting this same, flawed system....just with a different candidate?







i think EVERY system is flawed...none are perfect. does not mean they are entirely without merit. imo change comes from within. obviously, you do not see obama as an instrument of change....obviously i disagree.

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

if you voted in this election, for nader as i would imagine...aren't you STILL supporting this same, flawed system....just with a different candidate?







i think EVERY system is flawed...none are perfect. does not mean they are entirely without merit. imo change comes from within. obviously, you do not see obama as an instrument of change....obviously i disagree.

no, b/c i think Nader would innitiate actual change whereas i don't see much change springing forth from obama

i suppose we will both have to wait and see

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

no, b/c i think Nader would innitiate actual change whereas i don't see much change springing forth from obama

i suppose we will both have to wait and see

so then, you ARE, or did, participate in this flawed system, just as you were questioning my participation in this flawed system, and for much the same reasons...even if we chose different candidates and may have different views on what and how much change we would like to see, or what and how much change we expect and would find acceptible in working towards the future.




and yes, absolute agreement there.
i do not see obama as some messiah, i do not blindly support every word and deed...and i absolutely will hold him accountable if he does not live up to his word. i DO see change coming from within the system, and i certainly respect that we can view that quite differently.

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

so then, you ARE, or did, participate in this flawed system, just as you were questioning my participation in this flawed system, and for much the same reasons...even if we chose different candidates and may have different views on what and how much change we would like to see, or what and how much change we expect and would find acceptible in working towards the future.

no

i see obama/biden as more of the same ie no change.

i saw nader/gonzalez as actual change.

so, to me supporting 'more of the same' is keeping the system flawed, supporting someone who i believe would make actual change is not supporting change

unless you are mean it overall as in the entire system like me not agreeing w/ the electoral college and how you can have more of the popular vote but still lose, then yes, i guess i did take part in the flawed system but to me it was the same as voting for nader/gonzalez even though i knew they wouldn't win, it was worth it to give my support to someone i felt deserved it

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

no

i see obama/biden as more of the same ie no change.

i saw nader/gonzalez as actual change.

so, to me supporting 'more of the same' is keeping the system flawed, supporting someone who i believe would make actual change is not supporting change

unless you are mean it overall as in the entire system like me not agreeing w/ the electoral college and how you can have more of the popular vote but still lose, then yes, i guess i did take part in the flawed system but to me it was the same as voting for nader/gonzalez even though i knew they wouldn't win, it was worth it to give my support to someone i felt deserved it

well considering the thread topic is 'the system is flawed'......to me, the subject is then the SYSTEM, overall. so suppoting said system, by voting, you ARE participating in a flawed system. if you actually look at posts from the OP after his rather brief first post.....he/she was in fact referring to the 'system' itself.

i am aware of your opinions, and obviously mine are not the same. i DO think my support of an obama presidency will not result in 'more of the same'....but it may well not be enough change you personally desire, and thus makes absolute sense you supported another candidate. and i always agree, you should support who most closely aligns with your pov, what you want to see.....no matter if one thinks they have a real chance of winning or not, makes no difference there. i just have a different pov for change and what i want/expect.

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

well considering the thread topic is 'the system is flawed'......to me, the subject is then the SYSTEM, overall. so suppoting said system, by voting, you ARE participating in a flawed system. if you actually look at posts from the OP after his rather brief first post.....he/she was in fact referring to the 'system' itself.

i am aware of your opinions, and obviously mine are not the same. i DO think my support of an obama presidency will not result in 'more of the same'....but it may well not be enough change you personally desire, and thus makes absolute sense you supported another candidate. and i always agree, you should support who most closely aligns with your pov, what you want to see.....no matter if one thinks they have a real chance of winning or not, makes no difference there. i just have a different pov for change and what i want/expect.

nader would change the flawed system, obama will only strengthen it, in my opinion

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

nader would change the flawed system, obama will only strengthen it, in my opinion

i don't think nader would actually get to accomplish much in office if elected, i think obama will work to affect change for the better, in my opinion...and thus why we voted as we did, and so it goes...time will tell.



however, seeing as nader is not in office and obama is....i see no reason to rehash the whys and hows of our individual beliefs there. it's done. we can see in another 4 years where we're at, if nader runs again....and discuss it at length once more.



so sure..gotcha.