the system is flawed

Mrs.Vedder78

decides2dream wrote:

besides, the fact, his electoral vote count was pretty damn impressive in it's own right.



as i said earlier...yep, the system is 'flawed' as is almost all systems. still does not mean it does not represent the will and desires of the people. it's a long, hard road ahead...i think we as a country chose the right president-elect to guide us through it. and if we didn't, we will reap what we sow. at least right now, as a collective, i feel like we DID make this choice, and it does speak volumes.

I think what happened yesterday showed how desperatly people want something to work, something to change and we will see if President elect Barack Obama delivers, he gives me hope and that's why I supported him but at the end of the day is not about being democrat, republican or independent its about what the candidate elected does to benefit your country and your family and if it doesnt work out in 4 years again the people like you and I will have a chance to look for change again...

For now, I'm hopeful and today I'm proud of America.

MayDay10

I dont hate the Electoral system.

However, I think that it is flawed that no matter how I vote, NYS is already decided. All elections usually come down to the same 2 or 3 states... It seems that the elections are put in the hands of a much smaller number of voters than the USA.

Mrs.Vedder78

Strangest Tribe wrote:

I once bought some pants that were flawed. I actually wore them.

WTF????arewetalkingabout

:D:D LMAO!

decides2dream

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

I think what happened yesterday showed how desperatly people want something to work, something to change and we will see if President elect Barack Obama delivers, he gives me hope and that's why I supported him but at the end of the day is not about being democrat, republican or independent its about what the candidate elected does to benefit your country and your family and if it doesnt work out in 4 years again the people like you and I will have a chance to look for change again...

For now, I'm hopeful and today I'm proud of America.

exactly.


and sure, absolutely..i can and do believe this two-party system is flawed, that i don't even believe in parties, etc. however, i am of the belief that change comes from WITHIN. work in the system to change the system. others believe otherwise, and all act accordingly. so be it and as it should be.


but you betcha....today i am HAPPY.
i do not feel this disconnect from my fellow citizens as i was truly starting to believe over the past 8 years....and you betcha...i am HOPEFUL. and even within our current, imperfect system.....every 4 years we get the opportunity to change it. that's a pretty damn good feature of this flawed system of ours.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

as i said earlier...yep, the system is 'flawed' as is almost all systems. still does not mean it does not represent the will and desires of the people. it's a long, hard road ahead...i think we as a country chose the right president-elect to guide us through it. and if we didn't, we will reap what we sow. at least right now, as a collective, i feel like we DID make this choice, and it does speak volumes.

I agree with you! it speaks good and healthy volumes. As some more right-wing people would point out, there will be a cost in other ways, even if this was a necessary choice.

I always agree that the system represents the will of the people, even in ways they are unconscious of. And most of the world is very happy right now that you all as a group have made this progress. That's awesome! It's just realistic, at the same time, to know there are also gaping flaws..we're evolving. It's the way it is, that we learn to adapt to what is not working. Denial never works. Everyone is held to account in one way or another for all choices. Hope is amazing, to stay inspired, and if it's at the cost of realism, we'll be brought down to earth. I prefer and healthy mixture of hope AND realism!

heartdesire

angelica wrote:

The OP made a very vague, very short statement.

If people want to assume what that means, and respond to an assumption that's fine.

To me, I see there are myriad reasons the system is flawed.

For me, one of them is that clearly Obama has shown that he operates from duality thinking. And he represents a country that clearly generally operates from duality thinking. Therefore the time is coming where the US is going to consider themselves "right" and someone else "wrong" and will take action against the "wrong" party...perpetuating the blindness of denial and fragmented perception, and contributing to killing and death in the world. All the while perpetuating the ugliness in the human heart, and not rising to the occasion of understanding and problem solving.

I see many strengths Obama brings to the table, and hopefully he will have the ability to operate from those strengths for the most part. As opposed to having to bow to the majority who are not yet at his stage of awareness and will demand, rightfully so, that he represent them. Ultimately, we're only as strong as our weakest link.

The system is flawed....

Yes the system is flawed and has become more so as the years pile on.

You say that Obama operates from duality thinking. And Bush, Cheney, McCain or Palin don't? In your mind what is the solution, or movement to a solution? We already live in a time where the US feels and act on the "right" and "wrong", where have you been, especially the last 8 years where it has reared its ugly head even more?

Yes, we live in a world of duality which is the challenge ... I would rather have a leader that can inspire hope and motivate folks to feel empowered. Maybe a few folks will awaken ...

You use high concepts that are highly idealistic with no offer of vision.

Yes the system is flawed, though what is it that you are actually visioning for the betterment of life, this country, the world at large?

Awareness is wonderful, though how do you inspire it, as it can't be forced.

angelica

heart&desire wrote:

Yes the system is flawed and has become more so as the years pile on.

You say that Obama operates from duality thinking. And Bush, Cheney, McCain or Palin don't? In your mind what is the solution, or movement to a solution? We already live in a time where the US feels and act on the "right" and "wrong", where have you been, especially the last 8 years where it has reared its ugly head even more?

As I said..the system is flawed!!

As far as offering vision and solutions, the majority isn't even close to understanding or voting for problem-solving or vision. I was very heartened to see both emerge on the American stage through the voices of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. That says something about the American people that those two rose to the positions they did, and are able to influence people as we speak. And yet, the majority has shown that they do not yet see beyond the duality in order to comprehend understanding and problem-solving.

Yes, we live in a world of duality which is the challenge

The way I see it is that duality is a worldview -- a mindset. Its is not a property of the world itself. When people clear up their duality programming, they move into understanding, awareness, know-ledge, etc.

... I would rather have a leader that can inspire hope and motivate folks to feel empowered. Maybe a few folks will awaken ...

I agree Obama has some amazing skills. And he has a great potential. However, I am still concerned when anyone projects the lack and darkness of their own heart onto others. It's the dark underbelly of humanity. Denial of it merely perpetuates the problem. Awakening is also about awakening to our lack and how we contribute to our problems, so as to use our higher functions in problem solving and resolving our conflicts, rather than perpetuating them.

You use high concepts that are highly idealistic with no offer of vision.

Yes the system is flawed, though what is it that you are actually visioning for the betterment of life, this country, the world at large?

Awareness is wonderful, though how do you inspire it, as it can't be forced.

My intention in this thread is to call attention to blind spots. When we address our weak links, we can use our "flaws" as a vehicle to awakening and overcoming. My high ideals are fully tempered by a firm sense of reality.

ReleaseMe...

when people dont know WHY they are voting for someone (not the brilliant people posting on amt), and basically only vote for them because of his skin color or because his opponent is depicted as a friend of the devil, then theres a problem. when a popular vote so close turns into a landslide electoral college victory, theres a problem.

heartdesire

angelica wrote:

As I said..the system is flawed!!

As far as offering vision and solutions, the majority isn't even close to understanding or voting for problem-solving or vision. I was very heartened to see both emerge on the American stage through the voices of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. That says something about the American people that those two rose to the positions they did, and are able to influence people as we speak. And yet, the majority has shown that they do not yet see beyond the duality in order to comprehend understanding and problem-solving.

The way I see it is that duality is a worldview -- a mindset. Its is not a property of the world itself. When people clear up their duality programming, they move into understanding, awareness, know-ledge, etc.


I agree Obama has some amazing skills. And he has a great potential. However, I am still concerned when anyone projects the lack and darkness of their own heart onto others. It's the dark underbelly of humanity. Denial of it merely perpetuates the problem. Awakening is also about awakening to our lack and how we contribute to our problems, so as to use our higher functions in problem solving and resolving our conflicts, rather than perpetuating them.

My intention in this thread is to call attention to blind spots. When we address our weak links, we can use our "flaws" as a vehicle to awakening and overcoming. My high ideals are fully tempered by a firm sense of reality.

Thank you. I wasn't clear on your intentions and now understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your stance and concerns. Well said on projection!

This wave of hope was needed, and I am glad the opportunity has arrived. With this I am hoping for the best for all and am working towards greater awareness and responsibility in myself as well.

Cheers to you!

decides2dream

ReleaseMe... wrote:

when people dont know WHY they are voting for someone (not the brilliant people posting on amt), and basically only vote for them because of his skin color or because his opponent is depicted as a friend of the devil, then theres a problem. when a popular vote so close turns into a landslide electoral college victory, theres a problem.

that has existed even without skin color being an issuel educating the voting public requires the oting public to also work to educate themselves as well. it's not so simple to point at race alone, people vote for a myriad of reasons, and oftentimes, misinformation or on shallow, baseless extraneous items, not issues.



as to the 'close' popular vote, i may be mistaken but i thought on the coverage last night that it was actually stated it was one of the 'biggest' gaps in the popular vote in many, many years? i think we are such a HUGE country, and we have been soo dividied for so long. i think the *extreme* has gotten way too much play, and too many want to see their way of thinking as the way of the land...instead of focusing on commonalities and choices, freedom of such choices, etc. i think a reembrace of the seperation of church and state would be a positive first step, and if people se it as a good thing...we might become moe unified in our approach, and our government.


bottomline....even with a huge gap in the electoral and not so huge in the popular vote....we STILL got the candidate as president-elect that the MOST americans want. more than what we can say in recent, past elections.

Lizard

NOTHING in this world is perfect

angelica

heart&desire wrote:

Thank you. I wasn't clear on your intentions and now understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your stance and concerns. Well said on projection!

You are very welcome! And thank-YOU! I appreciate your questions, consideration and openness!

This wave of hope was needed, and I am glad the opportunity has arrived. With this I am hoping for the best for all and am working towards greater awareness and responsibility in myself as well.

Cheers to you!

Hope is a beautiful thing! And very practical when it informs our words and deeds! As long as we stay realistic and balanced in that amazing hope! We all have the power within us!

Cheers to you!

Mrs.Vedder78

ReleaseMe... wrote:

when a popular vote so close turns into a landslide electoral college victory, theres a problem.

The gap in between Obama and McCain is one of the biggest gaps in recent elections....

But I'm not sure as to what you are suggesting with that statement.

ACCBootlegGoddess

angelica wrote:

The OP made a very vague, very short statement.

If people want to assume what that means, and respond to an assumption that's fine.

To me, I see there are myriad reasons the system is flawed.

For me, one of them is that clearly Obama has shown that he operates from duality thinking. And he represents a country that clearly generally operates from duality thinking. Therefore the time is coming where the US is going to consider themselves "right" and someone else "wrong" and will take action against the "wrong" party...perpetuating the blindness of denial and fragmented perception, and contributing to killing and death in the world. All the while perpetuating the ugliness in the human heart, and not rising to the occasion of understanding and problem solving.

Ummm your country ALREADY does this....Hello Iraq?????
Bush was like we're right...the UN and its inspectors are wrong...we're going to go in there and punish Sadam....who turned out to be INNOCENT of having Weapons of Mass Destruction!!! Was he an terrible man YES...but so are the rulers in Darfor and I don't see the US trying to help the people there. No Oil there so not worth the US's time right???

Open your eyes Anjelica...the Republcians have done all the things you have mentioned. I can see by your sour grapes you are a McCain supporter...I guess the system was ok when your Boys were getting electoral votes he had no right to (see 2000 election) but now that the Dems are getting votes they damn well earned...the system is flawed??? Ok.

BTW yes the system has flaws some years...but at least THIS year those flaws didn't determine the outcome of the election.

heartdesire

angelica wrote:

You are very welcome! And thank-YOU! I appreciate your questions, consideration and openness!

Hope is a beautiful thing! And very practical when it informs our words and deeds! As long as we stay realistic and balanced in that amazing hope! We all have the power within us!

Cheers to you!

Yes ... staying realistic and balanced is key. To note, amazing changes, to me, involve a leap of faith, active trust and faith in ones vision. Sometimes we have to go beyond the realistic as we know it to get there ... hope that makes sense as I'm not the most eloquent concise writer!

Angelica ... You Rock!

ACCBootlegGoddess

ReleaseMe... wrote:

when people dont know WHY they are voting for someone (not the brilliant people posting on amt), and basically only vote for them because of his skin color or because his opponent is depicted as a friend of the devil, then theres a problem. when a popular vote so close turns into a landslide electoral college victory, theres a problem.

Just like it was a problem back in the 2000 election where Gore had the majority of the popular vote and BUSH won the election!!! THAT is a BIGGER problem but I didn't see you Republicans complaining then!!!

angelica

ACCBootlegGoddess wrote:

Ummm your country ALREADY does this....Hello Iraq?????
Bush was like we're right...the UN and its inspectors are wrong...we're going to go in there and punish Sadam....who turned out to be INNOCENT of having Weapons of Mass Destruction!!! Was he an terrible man YES...but so are the rulers in Darfor and I don't see the US trying to help the people there. No Oil there so not worth the US's time right???

Open your eyes Anjelica...the Republcians have done all the things you have mentioned. I can see by your sour grapes you are a McCain supporter...I guess the system was ok when your Boys were getting electoral votes he had no right to (see 2000 election) but now that the Dems are getting votes they damn well earned...the system is flawed??? Ok.

BTW yes the system has flaws some years...but at least THIS year those flaws didn't determine the outcome of the election.

It looks like it is you who needs to open your eyes:

1: I said the system is flawed. I mean it has always been flawed. I pointed out the flaws of the past 8 years as example in this very thread.

2: I am Canadian, like yourself. I also think our system is flawed, and don't participate in it.

3: I'm not close to being a McCain supporter. I am glad Obama has won of the two choices. I merely face the facts that all systems have strengths AND lacks. I call that being realistic. I believe that in order for us to be healthy and responsible, we must take responsibility for our actions and in order to do so, we must cut through denial and any smokescreen we might use to delude ourselves into thinking a new politician will erase lack...a lack that only we can resolve from within, individually. Hope is awesome. And yet, we must all 'bring it'.

angelica

heart&desire wrote:

Yes ... staying realistic and balanced is key. To note, amazing changes, to me, involve a leap of faith, active trust and faith in ones vision. Sometimes we have to go beyond the realistic as we know it to get there ... hope that makes sense as I'm not the most eloquent concise writer!

Angelica ... You Rock!

I completely agree, 100%, about the leap of faith and active trust in one's vision!!!! I also totally agree -- and I can't stress this enough -- that we have to go beyond realistic to get there! I live from these principles in each day!

You clearly rock yourself! Peace.

decides2dream

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

The gap in between Obama and McCain is one of the biggest gaps in recent elections....

But I'm not sure as to what you are suggesting with that statement.

that was what i thought as well, but wasn't 100% certain....but i just heard it reiterated on CNN once again. it IS a historic gap in the popular vote, one that has not been seen in ages! i missed the year mentioned for how long.....but its celarly identified as long, and most definitely a historic number. so then, both the popular and electoral vote clearly illustrate the desire of the collective.....so i too wonder what is meant to be taken from the OP's comments in regards to the difference and what it may suggest?


it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world....and acknowledging it is one step, but also realizing it for what it is....is a good thing too. those who focus merely on the flaws, certainly their right....but it does not make them 'right' either. i personally believe in the power of working from within, others may not.

change builds slowly, like a wave......

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

... those who focus merely on the flaws, certainly their right....but it does not make them 'right' either. i personally believe in the power of working from within, others may not.

change builds slowly, like a wave......

I can't imagine anyone focuses merely on the flaws. It's a natural part of our brain chemistry--of the the human amygdala--to recognize potential danger so that we can resolve it and avert it. This is an integrative and holistic function to recognize potential problems and to alter one's course before manifesting such issues in terms of consequences.

Whether it's right or wrong, it's certainly effective.

Change as I see it stems from an instantaneous switch from within, and from that inner shift, how it plays out or radiates may appear as more of a wave. Or even two steps forwards, one back. And still, at base, we can and do change our minds--the place from which all other changes flow from--in one instant.