That was probably one of the most remarkable outcomes at the end of the day. Who'd knew that could happen.
sure, i believe in possibility, certainly knew it could happen...but no way was i thinking it would happen. i did harbor some high-hopes that there would be a CLEAR message sent by this election, and for that....it HAS imo. i was truly amazed and in awe last night as i was watching the results, and the more i read and see about it...the more it impresses me. such amazing results all the way round! now if those 4 undecided seats go democrat thus assuring no fillibusters....wow! but, even without them...i think the message is clear. most definitely looking forward and hopeful for the start of positive change for us all.
of course, none of this erases the many flaws within the system, and i think most people are cognizant of this.....but truly borrowing on words, change occurs in waves......i believe it and hope to see it in action. we all have differing perspectives on how and why and what to change....but i do sincerely hope that change CAN occur from within, albeit slowly. forward motion is still always forward motion.
Of course many are riding on a high now....so they aren't so willing to see the flaws. And when their guy begins to take flawed action, many will justify it, so as to reduce cognitive dissonance within....
And still...the system is mightily flawed. The way people deal with the flaws generally is by denying them, and when they arise, to pin the blame on someone else..using good/bad duality, rather than an overall perception, understanding and realism.
I've always agreed the system is very flawed and never once expected a fundamental change in policy from Obama.
what I do expect are small shifts in policy, at home, abroad, which can directly affect many lives, can mean life or death. when you're the world's superpower your decisions are very important, to many around the world. that's why it was important to keep another Bush type of president from getting into the whitehouse.
that said, you called mrs.v on calling it a landslide...and now agre it is in the traditional sense? so what was the point in disagreeing with the assessment in the first place? perhaps that's where the confusion lies..
Because it is not a landslide in reality. It is only a landslide compared to other elections. When you only win 53% of the vote....47% is a lot of people to ignore.
People gave W hell for his "mandate" when he won, but in reality it was an extremely slim margin. People need to start recognizing that while it's a win, many people disagree and it's important to take them into consideration.
Obama acknoledging this is a good thing in my opinion, I hope it's not smoke, and it is part fo the reason why I voted for him despite disagreeing with him...often.
yes it is.
do please mention one system that is *perfect*....without flaws, b/c i know of none. flaws exist, but that does not mean that the system does not always represent the will and desires of the people.
change comes in waves....:)
however, for today i am happy....flaws or not...b/c i think what we have today truly DOES represent the will of the people and speaks volumes of what we want to see for the future of this country. i am a truly flawed human being, as most people are....does not mean i can not work, cannot achieve greatness, cannot work towards my betterment and towars the betterment of the world. the world is an imperfect place....if we only accept perfection, we will get no where, fast.
Churchill, who was always good for a soundbite on such occassions, said
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
I've always agreed the system is very flawed and never once expected a fundamental change in policy from Obama.
what I do expect are small shifts in policy, at home, abroad, which can directly affect many lives, can mean life or death. when you're the world's superpower your decisions are very important, to many around the world. that's why it was important to keep another Bush type of president from getting into the whitehouse.
I remember you were on the Rhinocerous Surprise '08 team at one time!!
Truthfully, when people are being realistic, I say more power to the diversity. I don't for a minute think my choice supercedes yours. I see them as different, and even complementary.
I know you were saying yesterday that you will also hold Obama to account. I'm glad you feel that way. Hopefully more and more people will understand the beauty of that as we move along!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I remember you were on the Rhinocerous Surprise '08 team at one time!!
Truthfully, when people are being realistic, I say more power to the diversity. I don't for a minute think my choice supercedes yours. I see them as different, and even complementary.
I know you were saying yesterday that you will also hold Obama to account. I'm glad you feel that way. Hopefully more and more people will understand the beauty of that as we move along!
Of course many are riding on a high now....so they aren't so willing to see the flaws. And when their guy begins to take flawed action, many will justify it, so as to reduce cognitive dissonance within....
And still...the system is mightily flawed. The way people deal with the flaws generally is by denying them, and when they arise, to pin the blame on someone else..using good/bad duality, rather than an overall perception, understanding and realism.
yawn yawn fucking YAWN.
quit yer bitchin' and get off yer ass and DO something about the flawed (read: created by humans) system if it gets you so worked up.
otherwise, it all just sounds like so much sour grapes.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
if by flawed you mean " the fact that the American People went out and made their voices be heard and chose a President by a landslide" then I guess it is flawed :rolleyes:
It wasn't a landslide.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
I have already explained this on this thread... I can really call it whatever I want, and the reason I chose to call it that is that turning states like OH, FL, IN, VA, NM, NV and CO should speak much much much louder than than the gap they had...
but if you me rather saw "a lot" than "landslide" fine, he won by a lot and at the end of the day he could have won with 271 still makes him the winner...
"Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
The Electoral College does serve a purpose. It was created to reduce the effects of uninformed voters.
For example, let's say a majority of people were persuaded into voting for a candidate from the Nazi party. The Electoral College is meant to override people's votes in cases like that where a candidate would truly be dangerous for the country.
It's actually a pretty important thing to have.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
The Electoral College does serve a purpose. It was created to reduce the effects of uninformed voters.
For example, let's say a majority of people were persuaded into voting for a candidate from the Nazi party. The Electoral College is meant to override people's votes in cases like that where a candidate would truly be dangerous for the country.
It's actually a pretty important thing to have.
thats how i feel after the outcome of this election. people were brainwashed. did you see the look in their eyes staring at him in grant park? staring at a video screen in times square? the EC did nothing
thats how i feel after the outcome of this election. people were brainwashed. did you see the look in their eyes staring at him in grant park? staring at a video screen in times square? the EC did nothing
Brainwashed. No way. Get over it darlin'. You can say the same thing about McCain folks. No brainwashing. It's about the message. It's about beliefs.
There is a passion, a commitment to his message that spoke to people. There is hope, rather than fear. That is what a majority of people want, myself included. There is work to be done and change is a process. Would rather be able to create change within an atmosphere of hope as opposed to the fear that has been created over the last 8 years.
thats how i feel after the outcome of this election. people were brainwashed. did you see the look in their eyes staring at him in grant park? staring at a video screen in times square? the EC did nothing
WOW! is all I got for this one...
"Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
Yep, you can call it whatever you like, it certainly is a "landslide" in the traditional sense. But in reality many people didn;t vote for Obama and I'm glad he mentioned it and I hope he pays attention to it, unlike W.
it was nice that he said he would work hard to earn the votes that weren't cast for him, unlike many here who just want to get pissy b/c ppl didn't vote for him
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I hope you are being sarcastic but in case you are not:
California = 55 electoral votes with 38MIL approx people ....
Texas = 34 electoral votes with 24MIL aprox people...
NY = 31 electoral votes number 3 in the nation in population ...
FL= 27 electoral votes numer 4 in population....
You see the trend? doesnt really look that flawed now does it?
yes, i call a system where someone can have more of the popular vote but still lose as a 'flawed system' we need something like instant runoff voting
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i understand metaphor...but sorry if i find a 'motionless wave' a poor one.
and we all are there right now.
for the sake of the anal retentive crowd:
a wave can not build if the water in which the wave will be created remains motionless or as close to it as water in an ocean can be
i don't see how obama could have changed policy when he hasn't even been sworn in. you all say this administration will pave the way of change, i will wait for it b/c from his website and what he said (tho what he said seemed to change depending on what crowd he was talking to) it seemed like more of the same as far as 'answers'
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
for the sake of the anal retentive crowd:
a wave can not build if the water in which the wave will be created remains motionless or as close to it as water in an ocean can be
i don't see how obama could have changed policy when he hasn't even been sworn in. you all say this administration will pave the way of change, i will wait for it b/c from his website and what he said (tho what he said seemed to change depending on what crowd he was talking to) it seemed like more of the same as far as 'answers'
yay for the anal-retentive!
and yes...thanks, i know. so again, not a wave......i *got* the metaphor in it's entirety, excuse me if even after your further explaination it just personally doesn't do it for me. it wasn't a 'failure' as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post....just my own personal lack of appreciation. perhaps others enjoy it.
as to obama, who said he changed policy yet?
all i said was 'change comes in waves'....mostly as a play on being on a pj board...thus pj lyrics, and sure the symbolism of such. i in no way insinuated obama HAS created change yet.....just that it builds, takes time....like a wave. i see obama's election as the beginning of the wave. that's all. obviously you don't....and neither of us will 'know' until more time passes.
anyhoo...yes, the system is flawed. i said as much in my very first post. i aslo asked, can anyone point me to a system that is NOT flawed? there isn't...b/c no such system exists, not created by humanity in any case. we are flawed beings, stands to reason we create flawed systems. this is not to suggest i do not believe we shouldn't work to improve said systems....absolutely, we should! but acknowledging something is flawed, in and of itself..dosn't say much. pretty much all we create has inherent flaws, doesn't mean it's entirely without merit.
and yes...thanks, i know. so again, not a wave......i *got* the metaphor in it's entirety, excuse me if even after your further explaination it just personally doesn't do it for me. it wasn't a 'failure' as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post....just my own personal lack of appreciation. perhaps others enjoy it.
as to obama, who said he changed policy yet?
all i said was 'change comes in waves'....mostly as a play on being on a pj board...thus pj lyrics, and sure the symbolism of such. i in no way insinuated obama HAS created change yet.....just that it builds, takes time....like a wave. i see obama's election as the beginning of the wave. that's all. obviously you don't....and neither of us will 'know' until more time passes.
anyhoo...yes, the system is flawed. i said as much in my very first post. i aslo asked, can anyone point me to a system that is NOT flawed? there isn't...b/c no such system exists, not created by humanity in any case. we are flawed beings, stands to reason we create flawed systems. this is not to suggest i do not believe we shouldn't work to improve said systems....absolutely, we should! but acknowledging something is flawed, in and of itself..dosn't say much. pretty much all we create has inherent flaws, doesn't mean it's entirely without merit.
then why support the flaws and continue to allow them to exist?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
then why support the flaws and continue to allow them to exist?
if you voted in this election, for nader as i would imagine...aren't you STILL supporting this same, flawed system....just with a different candidate?
i think EVERY system is flawed...none are perfect. does not mean they are entirely without merit. imo change comes from within. obviously, you do not see obama as an instrument of change....obviously i disagree.
if you voted in this election, for nader as i would imagine...aren't you STILL supporting this same, flawed system....just with a different candidate?
i think EVERY system is flawed...none are perfect. does not mean they are entirely without merit. imo change comes from within. obviously, you do not see obama as an instrument of change....obviously i disagree.
no, b/c i think Nader would innitiate actual change whereas i don't see much change springing forth from obama
i suppose we will both have to wait and see
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
no, b/c i think Nader would innitiate actual change whereas i don't see much change springing forth from obama
i suppose we will both have to wait and see
so then, you ARE, or did, participate in this flawed system, just as you were questioning my participation in this flawed system, and for much the same reasons...even if we chose different candidates and may have different views on what and how much change we would like to see, or what and how much change we expect and would find acceptible in working towards the future.
and yes, absolute agreement there.
i do not see obama as some messiah, i do not blindly support every word and deed...and i absolutely will hold him accountable if he does not live up to his word. i DO see change coming from within the system, and i certainly respect that we can view that quite differently.
so then, you ARE, or did, participate in this flawed system, just as you were questioning my participation in this flawed system, and for much the same reasons...even if we chose different candidates and may have different views on what and how much change we would like to see, or what and how much change we expect and would find acceptible in working towards the future.
no
i see obama/biden as more of the same ie no change.
i saw nader/gonzalez as actual change.
so, to me supporting 'more of the same' is keeping the system flawed, supporting someone who i believe would make actual change is not supporting change
unless you are mean it overall as in the entire system like me not agreeing w/ the electoral college and how you can have more of the popular vote but still lose, then yes, i guess i did take part in the flawed system but to me it was the same as voting for nader/gonzalez even though i knew they wouldn't win, it was worth it to give my support to someone i felt deserved it
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i see obama/biden as more of the same ie no change.
i saw nader/gonzalez as actual change.
so, to me supporting 'more of the same' is keeping the system flawed, supporting someone who i believe would make actual change is not supporting change
unless you are mean it overall as in the entire system like me not agreeing w/ the electoral college and how you can have more of the popular vote but still lose, then yes, i guess i did take part in the flawed system but to me it was the same as voting for nader/gonzalez even though i knew they wouldn't win, it was worth it to give my support to someone i felt deserved it
well considering the thread topic is 'the system is flawed'......to me, the subject is then the SYSTEM, overall. so suppoting said system, by voting, you ARE participating in a flawed system. if you actually look at posts from the OP after his rather brief first post.....he/she was in fact referring to the 'system' itself.
i am aware of your opinions, and obviously mine are not the same. i DO think my support of an obama presidency will not result in 'more of the same'....but it may well not be enough change you personally desire, and thus makes absolute sense you supported another candidate. and i always agree, you should support who most closely aligns with your pov, what you want to see.....no matter if one thinks they have a real chance of winning or not, makes no difference there. i just have a different pov for change and what i want/expect.
Comments
sure, i believe in possibility, certainly knew it could happen...but no way was i thinking it would happen. i did harbor some high-hopes that there would be a CLEAR message sent by this election, and for that....it HAS imo. i was truly amazed and in awe last night as i was watching the results, and the more i read and see about it...the more it impresses me. such amazing results all the way round! now if those 4 undecided seats go democrat thus assuring no fillibusters....wow! but, even without them...i think the message is clear. most definitely looking forward and hopeful for the start of positive change for us all.
of course, none of this erases the many flaws within the system, and i think most people are cognizant of this.....but truly borrowing on words, change occurs in waves......i believe it and hope to see it in action. we all have differing perspectives on how and why and what to change....but i do sincerely hope that change CAN occur from within, albeit slowly. forward motion is still always forward motion.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
what is is what isn't isn't is it it is
Hail, Hail!!!
what I do expect are small shifts in policy, at home, abroad, which can directly affect many lives, can mean life or death. when you're the world's superpower your decisions are very important, to many around the world. that's why it was important to keep another Bush type of president from getting into the whitehouse.
Because it is not a landslide in reality. It is only a landslide compared to other elections. When you only win 53% of the vote....47% is a lot of people to ignore.
People gave W hell for his "mandate" when he won, but in reality it was an extremely slim margin. People need to start recognizing that while it's a win, many people disagree and it's important to take them into consideration.
Obama acknoledging this is a good thing in my opinion, I hope it's not smoke, and it is part fo the reason why I voted for him despite disagreeing with him...often.
Churchill, who was always good for a soundbite on such occassions, said
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
Enough said...
Truthfully, when people are being realistic, I say more power to the diversity. I don't for a minute think my choice supercedes yours. I see them as different, and even complementary.
I know you were saying yesterday that you will also hold Obama to account. I'm glad you feel that way. Hopefully more and more people will understand the beauty of that as we move along!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
next time...
Wicked deep man...
San Diego 2003
Grand Rapids 2004
Grand Rapids 2006
Detroit 2006
Columbus 2010
"With my own two hands I can change the world."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np6vAuS0KNs
yawn yawn fucking YAWN.
quit yer bitchin' and get off yer ass and DO something about the flawed (read: created by humans) system if it gets you so worked up.
otherwise, it all just sounds like so much sour grapes.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Considering California gets 55 electoral votes? Yeah its flawed, Fuck Cali.
I hope you are being sarcastic but in case you are not:
California = 55 electoral votes with 38MIL approx people ....
Texas = 34 electoral votes with 24MIL aprox people...
NY = 31 electoral votes number 3 in the nation in population ...
FL= 27 electoral votes numer 4 in population....
You see the trend? doesnt really look that flawed now does it?
It wasn't a landslide.
-Reagan
I have already explained this on this thread... I can really call it whatever I want, and the reason I chose to call it that is that turning states like OH, FL, IN, VA, NM, NV and CO should speak much much much louder than than the gap they had...
but if you me rather saw "a lot" than "landslide" fine, he won by a lot and at the end of the day he could have won with 271 still makes him the winner...
For example, let's say a majority of people were persuaded into voting for a candidate from the Nazi party. The Electoral College is meant to override people's votes in cases like that where a candidate would truly be dangerous for the country.
It's actually a pretty important thing to have.
-Reagan
routine was the theme..
there aint gonna be any middle any more
Brainwashed. No way. Get over it darlin'. You can say the same thing about McCain folks. No brainwashing. It's about the message. It's about beliefs.
There is a passion, a commitment to his message that spoke to people. There is hope, rather than fear. That is what a majority of people want, myself included. There is work to be done and change is a process. Would rather be able to create change within an atmosphere of hope as opposed to the fear that has been created over the last 8 years.
worst post on the pit ever. period.
WOW! is all I got for this one...
it was nice that he said he would work hard to earn the votes that weren't cast for him, unlike many here who just want to get pissy b/c ppl didn't vote for him
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yes, i call a system where someone can have more of the popular vote but still lose as a 'flawed system' we need something like instant runoff voting
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
for the sake of the anal retentive crowd:
a wave can not build if the water in which the wave will be created remains motionless or as close to it as water in an ocean can be
i don't see how obama could have changed policy when he hasn't even been sworn in. you all say this administration will pave the way of change, i will wait for it b/c from his website and what he said (tho what he said seemed to change depending on what crowd he was talking to) it seemed like more of the same as far as 'answers'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yay for the anal-retentive!
and yes...thanks, i know. so again, not a wave......i *got* the metaphor in it's entirety, excuse me if even after your further explaination it just personally doesn't do it for me. it wasn't a 'failure' as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post....just my own personal lack of appreciation. perhaps others enjoy it.
as to obama, who said he changed policy yet?
all i said was 'change comes in waves'....mostly as a play on being on a pj board...thus pj lyrics, and sure the symbolism of such. i in no way insinuated obama HAS created change yet.....just that it builds, takes time....like a wave. i see obama's election as the beginning of the wave. that's all. obviously you don't....and neither of us will 'know' until more time passes.
anyhoo...yes, the system is flawed. i said as much in my very first post. i aslo asked, can anyone point me to a system that is NOT flawed? there isn't...b/c no such system exists, not created by humanity in any case. we are flawed beings, stands to reason we create flawed systems. this is not to suggest i do not believe we shouldn't work to improve said systems....absolutely, we should! but acknowledging something is flawed, in and of itself..dosn't say much. pretty much all we create has inherent flaws, doesn't mean it's entirely without merit.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
then why support the flaws and continue to allow them to exist?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
if you voted in this election, for nader as i would imagine...aren't you STILL supporting this same, flawed system....just with a different candidate?
i think EVERY system is flawed...none are perfect. does not mean they are entirely without merit. imo change comes from within. obviously, you do not see obama as an instrument of change....obviously i disagree.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
no, b/c i think Nader would innitiate actual change whereas i don't see much change springing forth from obama
i suppose we will both have to wait and see
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
so then, you ARE, or did, participate in this flawed system, just as you were questioning my participation in this flawed system, and for much the same reasons...even if we chose different candidates and may have different views on what and how much change we would like to see, or what and how much change we expect and would find acceptible in working towards the future.
and yes, absolute agreement there.
i do not see obama as some messiah, i do not blindly support every word and deed...and i absolutely will hold him accountable if he does not live up to his word. i DO see change coming from within the system, and i certainly respect that we can view that quite differently.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
no
i see obama/biden as more of the same ie no change.
i saw nader/gonzalez as actual change.
so, to me supporting 'more of the same' is keeping the system flawed, supporting someone who i believe would make actual change is not supporting change
unless you are mean it overall as in the entire system like me not agreeing w/ the electoral college and how you can have more of the popular vote but still lose, then yes, i guess i did take part in the flawed system but to me it was the same as voting for nader/gonzalez even though i knew they wouldn't win, it was worth it to give my support to someone i felt deserved it
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
well considering the thread topic is 'the system is flawed'......to me, the subject is then the SYSTEM, overall. so suppoting said system, by voting, you ARE participating in a flawed system. if you actually look at posts from the OP after his rather brief first post.....he/she was in fact referring to the 'system' itself.
i am aware of your opinions, and obviously mine are not the same. i DO think my support of an obama presidency will not result in 'more of the same'....but it may well not be enough change you personally desire, and thus makes absolute sense you supported another candidate. and i always agree, you should support who most closely aligns with your pov, what you want to see.....no matter if one thinks they have a real chance of winning or not, makes no difference there. i just have a different pov for change and what i want/expect.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow