the system is flawed

El_Kabong

angelica wrote:

You have total agreement from me.

Of course many are riding on a high now....so they aren't so willing to see the flaws. And when their guy begins to take flawed action, many will justify it, so as to reduce cognitive dissonance within....

And still...the system is mightily flawed. The way people deal with the flaws generally is by denying them, and when they arise, to pin the blame on someone else..using good/bad duality, rather than an overall perception, understanding and realism.

indeed

all they need is to be slightly better than the other guy

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

yes it is.
do please mention one system that is *perfect*....without flaws, b/c i know of none. flaws exist, but that does not mean that the system does not always represent the will and desires of the people.



change comes in waves....:)


however, for today i am happy....flaws or not...b/c i think what we have today truly DOES represent the will of the people and speaks volumes of what we want to see for the future of this country. i am a truly flawed human being, as most people are....does not mean i can not work, cannot achieve greatness, cannot work towards my betterment and towars the betterment of the world. the world is an imperfect place....if we only accept perfection, we will get no where, fast.

change comes in waves but not if the waves remain motionless

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

change comes in waves but not if the waves remain motionless

we all rock the boat in our own way.
differing perspectives on who rocks and how much...i respect that. either way, we still will go forward and things will change. how much, how far, to who's benefit...again......it's all your own pov. life is nothing if not change. some may not even be change you desire or approve of, but none the less...it changes.


right now, whether one agrees or disagrees....i am pleased to se that the collective HAS made a clear choice. that is a positive step in and of itself. again, agree...disagree....c'est la vie. and still, life is all forward motion.


(btw- just being a stikler.....a wave, by definition, canNOT remain motionless) just sayin'......

El_Kabong

heart&desire wrote:

Yes the system is flawed and has become more so as the years pile on.

You say that Obama operates from duality thinking. And Bush, Cheney, McCain or Palin don't? In your mind what is the solution, or movement to a solution? We already live in a time where the US feels and act on the "right" and "wrong", where have you been, especially the last 8 years where it has reared its ugly head even more?

.

but obama ran on being so different

callen

angelica wrote:

You have total agreement from me.

Of course many are riding on a high now....so they aren't so willing to see the flaws. And when their guy begins to take flawed action, many will justify it, so as to reduce cognitive dissonance within....

And still...the system is mightily flawed. The way people deal with the flaws generally is by denying them, and when they arise, to pin the blame on someone else..using good/bad duality, rather than an overall perception, understanding and realism.

Choice was between two men....in this game you have to pick one..or none....if you picked McCain we would have had continued the us against them mentality. There are many in our country that thrive on this stife, and McCain strategy was to capitalize on this. With the other candidate, we get inclusion, understanding. Will he be perfect, no. Will he have all the answers, no, but he's surely the best choice and this will turn our country, ever so slightly towards peace and reconciliation....just give it some time. I feel the positive vibes..

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

we all rock the boat in our own way.
differing perspectives on who rocks and how much...i respect that. either way, we still will go forward and things will change. how much, how far, to who's benefit...again......it's all your own pov. life is nothing if not change. some may not even be change you desire or approve of, but none the less...it changes.


right now, whether one agrees or disagrees....i am pleased to se that the collective HAS made a clear choice. that is a positive step in and of itself. again, agree...disagree....c'est la vie. and still, life is all forward motion.


(btw- just being a stikler.....a wave, by definition, canNOT remain motionless) just sayin'......

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor

i will wait for this change you all speak of, other than color barrier

decides2dream

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor

i will wait for this change you all speak of, other than color barrier

i understand metaphor...but sorry if i find a 'motionless wave' a poor one.




and we all are there right now.

El_Kabong

decides2dream wrote:

i understand metaphor...but sorry if i find a 'motionless wave' a poor one.




and we all are there right now.

sorry to have failed in your eyes, dear

perhaps i will try to think of a better one

or perhaps i won't think about it again

angelica

callen wrote:

Choice was between two men....in this game you have to pick one..or none....if you picked McCain we would have had continued the us against them mentality. There are many in our country that thrive on this stife, and McCain strategy was to capitalize on this. With the other candidate, we get inclusion, understanding. Will he be perfect, no. Will he have all the answers, no, but he's surely the best choice and this will turn our country, ever so slightly towards peace and reconciliation....just give it some time. I feel the positive vibes..

If that happens, great.

My personal big concern is Iran, and the numbers of "reasonable" Americans who have bought into this scary unchecked ego idea of pre-emptively running around unleashing their own ugliness on others in the false name of "good". This is way beyond Obama, and he's going to have to deal. I look forward to see how he manages the situation through this process. How he does will be telling to me.

cincybearcat

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

if by flawed you mean " the fact that the American People went out and made their voices be heard and chose a President by a landslide" then I guess it is flawed :rolleyes:

Landslide huh? You sound like W and his "mandate"...

Look at the % of people that didn't vote for Obama...here's a hint...it's pretty high.

Hardly a landslide in the grand scheme of things. Obama even already refered to this which i thought was smart and classy.

callen

angelica wrote:

If that happens, great.

My personal big concern is Iran, and the numbers of "reasonable" Americans who have bought into this scary unchecked ego idea of pre-emptively running around unleashing their own ugliness on others in the false name of "good". This is way beyond Obama, and he's going to have to deal. I look forward to see how he manages the situation through this process. How he does will be telling to me.

Again we can't expect miracles but Obama's on the record for saying communications with Iran is acceptable, versus McCain singing "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran"

Strongly feel Obama's the best choice for so many reasons for this world...both due to his race, father being a muslim and having a more holistic modern view....its a really good thing.

angelica

El_Kabong wrote:

indeed

all they need is to be slightly better than the other guy

It's interesting to me that when people are disconnected from their inner power, they look outside for it, in the guise of any saviour (or fill in the blank). It's a sure sign to me that this happens when people see the potential good only. When they cannot appreciate the potential flaw and thereby see a balanced realistic view, I know imbalance is afoot and I see this on a widespread level (and therefore agree with the OP). A sure sign is what we've seen over and over on this board...where people rationalize away or justify the flaw. It's scary, dangerous denial, plain and simple.

And to be fair, I also recognize many of you are discerning the information, good and bad, and merely are coming to a different decision than I might. Again, what concerns me is the blind mystification that is NOT discernment.

angelica

callen wrote:

Again we can't expect miracles but Obama's on the record for saying communications with Iran is acceptable, versus McCain singing "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran"

Strongly feel Obama's the best choice for so many reasons for this world...both due to his race, father being a muslim and having a more holistic modern view....its a really good thing.

In general, I feel a lot of healthy potential at this point. I'm excited at the possibilities that seem beyond the very dark darkness of these past years. And yet, it's important that we all stay aware, and open to see what's really happening (good and bad) rather than blindly protect 'our guy'. We need to be realistically informed so we can speak to what we'd like to see, rather than justify and support what we don't want to see.

edit: I think it's ESPECIALLY important that the informed, concerned, aware people like on this board stay realistic and aware, because it's through people such as ourselves that the information trickles down to the majority of less aware people, like the person next to us at work. We have a HUGE impact.

Mrs.Vedder78

cincybearcat wrote:

Landslide huh? You sound like W and his "mandate"...

Look at the % of people that didn't vote for Obama...here's a hint...it's pretty high.

Hardly a landslide in the grand scheme of things. Obama even already refered to this which i thought was smart and classy.

To me it is, it wasn't even close as far as electoral votes, the popular votes is one of the biggest gaps we've seen in years and the fact that red states such as IN, NM, CO, NV, FL, OH and VA turned blue says more to me than anything else....

What diff doesnt it make anyways... what I decide to call it...?

cincybearcat

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

To me it is, it wasn't even close as far as electoral votes, the popular votes is one of the biggest gaps we've seen in years and that facts that red states such as IN, NM, CO, NV, FL, OH and VA turned blue says more to me than anything else....

What diff doesnt it make anyways... what I decide to call it...?

Yep, you can call it whatever you like, it certainly is a "landslide" in the traditional sense. But in reality many people didn;t vote for Obama and I'm glad he mentioned it and I hope he pays attention to it, unlike W.

Mrs.Vedder78

cincybearcat wrote:

Landslide huh? You sound like W and his "mandate"...

Look at the % of people that didn't vote for Obama...here's a hint...it's pretty high.

Hardly a landslide in the grand scheme of things. Obama even already refered to this which i thought was smart and classy.

for someone who voted for Obama you sound pretty bitter about it....

G Force

ReleaseMe... wrote:

it is

Good point. Great argument.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

Yep, you can call it whatever you like, it certainly is a "landslide" in the traditional sense. But in reality many people didn;t vote for Obama and I'm glad he mentioned it and I hope he pays attention to it, unlike W.

absolutely, all good.
i agree, it IS wise for him to acknowledge he was not everyone's choice...and all the more reason he was my choice, b/c it does seem he truly does attempt to discern such information and acknowlege it's importance.


that said, you called mrs.v on calling it a landslide...and now agre it is in the traditional sense? so what was the point in disagreeing with the assessment in the first place? perhaps that's where the confusion lies.


while i personally would not use the term 'landslide'...it really is pov there. this election IS historic on so many levels:


the most obvious - first african american, mixed race, whatever term for a person of color you choose - to be elected president.

high voter turnout - 64%

high youth turnout

high new voter registration

largest gap in the popular vote is years - wish i knew just how many! - but it is a BIG deal. obama's 53% to mccain's 47%.

huge gap in electoral votes. obama didn't merely meet the requirement of 270...he FAr exceeded it by hitting what, 340?



all of this may not 100% reflect on obama the candidate and a lot may be due to rejection of the current administration and a desire to move FAR away from it, but absolutely.....a good portion of all this 'historic vote' DOES lie with obama, his message, his ideals...and his campaign.


it is interesting if those who truly believe this system is SO flawed.....IF a third party candidate were to get elected, would you think it no longer flawed? it STILL would fundamentally be the same system, just that a 3rd party broke a barrier. personally, i think the inherent flaws would still greatly exist. i do not know the answers for creating a less flawed system, overall i am pretty happy with the system, even with the flaws...i just think we as a people have lost our way a lot.

Ms. Haiku

Pacomc79 wrote:

Electoral College discussion?

Electoral College doesn't seem necessary. Extra steps cost money, and I don't have statistics on this, but I wonder if the Electoral College was removed if it would at least save a little bit of money.

It was probably necessary when it was first created, but I don't think it necessarily protects the rights of smaller states anymore. I don't see how it could have back in the 1700's when it was created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Electoral_College

Anyone do a lot of research on this?

Ms. Haiku

Mrs_Vedder78 wrote:

comparing to the last 2 elections and the fact that he turned not one but several red states blue yes I chose to call it that...

I think that states like OH, FL, IN, NM, CO, NV, VA voted for a Democratic president president speak much louder than how many electoral votes they have...

That was probably one of the most remarkable outcomes at the end of the day. Who'd knew that could happen.