Holy Land Foundation charity found guilty in supporting "terrorism"

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  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    mammasan wrote:
    I understand the situation in Israel but I can not in good faith accept the attack on civilians regardless of who they elect or the mandatory military service that is imposed on them. If you believe in that logic then you must believe that it was acceptable for Al Qaida to carry out the 9/11 attacks on us and that the 3,000+ innocent lives taken that day was justifiable.

    I agree that it's not acceptable. Taking innocent lives is not justifiable.

    However, it's easy for us to sit back and judge . We look at it from our comfortable chairs, talk about it with our families and disregard it all when we go to bed. That's our reality, a comfortable, secure world.

    They live in a different world. Their entire lives are shaped by conditions that are not acceptable. There's a genocide against them in process. Their families are killed, robbed of their homes and land, all this while the whole world silently watches and discusses what is acceptable and what is not. It's silly to even entertain the thought that something 'acceptable' can come from this.

    It's easy to say it's wrong (and it is wrong) but we can at least try to understand why they resort to such methods. It's because they are left optionless. The world that once nobly sweared 'never again' sits by and actually contributes to these horrible, unjustifiable conditions in which they are forced to live.

    To me it's not about pointing out what's wrong and what's right. We're wrong. We're part of the problem. Saying their actions are wrong, although correct, doesn't help anything at all.

    We can actually do something about it. We should stop all aid to Israel, all of it. We should be on the side of the oppressed, the ones that are being killed, the victims. If we help them fight this war legitimately they wouldn't have to resort to such horrible methods to defend themselves.

    But no, the US supports Israel financially and militarily, it helps them commit genocide against a helpless people. The Palestinians fight with the means they have. They cannot fight "properly", because they don't have the means to do so.

    I sincerely hope the world will start to open its eyes soon and go into Palestine and fight with them against the oppressive, genocidal regime of Israel.

    I know many will disagree but anyone who supports Israel in this conflict is no different in my eyes than a nazi sympathizer.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    first of all, americans do NOT see the death of Iraqi civilians as collateral damage. that is complete bullshit.

    They don't see it at all. They don't care. If they actually cared about Iraqis as they care about their own citizens, the war in Iraq would have ended a long time ago.

    The US knowingly kills Iraqi civilians. Yet nothing happens. Where are all the marches and demonstrations against it?
    I've heard your argument before....any civilians living on land post 1967 are considered legitimate targets and should be killed.

    how nice.

    You can't just make up bullshit and use it against someone. That's not debate, that's lying.

    I agree with NoK, though, they are not innocent.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    Collin wrote:
    They don't see it at all. They don't care. If they actually cared about Iraqis as they care about their own citizens, the war in Iraq would have ended a long time ago.

    The US knowingly kills Iraqi civilians. Yet nothing happens. Where are all the marches and demonstrations against it?

    you are telling there has been no opposition to the Iraq war in the US? where are you from?
    Collin wrote:
    You can't just make up bullshit and use it against someone. That's not debate, that's lying.

    I agree with NoK, though, they are not innocent.

    I'm not making it up, I've heard arguments before that civilians living on occupied land are viable targets. how should these non innocent civilians be dealt with?
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    you are telling there has been no opposition to the Iraq war in the US? where are you from?

    There has been opposition for sure, not by the majority of people, however.

    I'm saying I agree with NoK that many Americans tend to see the deaths of Iraqi civilians as collateral damage.
    I'm not making it up, I've heard arguments before that civilians living on occupied land are viable targets. how should these non innocent civilians be dealt with?

    You are making it up. You said it was NoK's argument. It clearly wasn't, even within the same post he said he didn't condone attacks on civilians.

    How should they be dealth with? Peacefully, I guess. But to say they are innocent isn't entirely accurate, imo.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    mammasan wrote:
    I understand the situation in Israel but I can not in good faith accept the attack on civilians regardless of who they elect or the mandatory military service that is imposed on them. If you believe in that logic then you must believe that it was acceptable for Al Qaida to carry out the 9/11 attacks on us and that the 3,000+ innocent lives taken that day was justifiable.

    I think collin made some solid points in his post....But I just want to add to you that, I obvioulsy do not justify killing of innocents.

    But let's be realistic here, in regards to 9/11, is it really a fair comparison? Mainly we dont yet know the full story of 9/11. Let's get that first. Then we can bring it up.

    Many many many gaps are still wide open when it comes to that day. But for the sake of debate, we can talk about it if you want.
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    polaris wrote:
    i'm gonna have to side with NoK ... iraq is a fabricated war resulting in the loss of many innocent lives - americans have not held the people accountable for this ... one can only then say the general public either considers these deaths acceptable or they just don't care enuf to do anything about it ...

    American apathy, American ignorance, American stupidity. It must be one of those.

    and the truth is, even most of the Americans who supported the Iraq war then turned against it later on saying 'Bush tricked us', will be quick to support a war on Iran or another country if/when that happens. Probably under Obama.

    Obama will talk about how Iran is a threat to the world and Israel. He will rev them up with some nice catch phrases and then we will see these same Americans line up in support of a new war.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    MrBrian wrote:
    American apathy, American ignorance, American stupidity. It must be one of those.

    and the truth is, even most of the Americans who supported the Iraq war then turned against it later on saying 'Bush tricked us', will be quick to support a war on Iran or another country if/when that happens. Probably under Obama.

    Obama will talk about how Iran is a threat to the world and Israel. He will rev them up with some nice catch phrases and then we will see these same Americans line up in support of a new war.

    actions speak louder than words ...
  • bigdvs
    bigdvs Posts: 235
    Stop just stop, we can't conjecture about what the Palestinians might do (67 border capitulation leading to destruction of Israel) but we can get all huffy about a war the US might start (pre-emptive unilateral attack on Iran).

    There are no good answers, just some less bad ones. 67 borders are not great for Israel but they are a good starting point for a 2 state solution but will mean nothing if peace can not be maintained as it is all figured out (this is why Palestinians are made to seem disingenious by American media, their leadership sits down to talk peace and they walk into a mall or on a bus or in a market and blow themselves up). Less bad for Israel, just maintain and slowly work towards control of the entire country( make gestures of controlling settlers and speeches about how no new settlements will be forthcoming and then allow it anyway), then allow the Palestinians to live with in the borders. Treating them as the Jewish population was that lived in dhimmitude or worse from 1700-1900, a period in which some 23% of the population of then Palestine was Jewish and there were very few clashes between the 2 religions.
    "The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
    — Socrates

  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    why do some people make it out like this israeli-palestinian conflict is an actual war?? ... we're not talking about two sides battling it out ... we're talking about one with a huge military and backing that has people living a high standard of life vs. another group that are mostly living in what we would ball in poverty, having to buy arms from wherever they can ...

    one side has the newest military technology ... the others have slingshots ...
  • bigdvs
    bigdvs Posts: 235
    polaris wrote:
    why do some people make it out like this israeli-palestinian conflict is an actual war?? ... we're not talking about two sides battling it out ... we're talking about one with a huge military and backing that has people living a high standard of life vs. another group that are mostly living in what we would ball in poverty, having to buy arms from wherever they can ...

    one side has the newest military technology ... the others have slingshots ...
    rockets =/= slingshots
    carbombs =/= slingshots

    but i get where you are coming from because when the israeli military takes pot shots at kids throwing rocks at their tanks its pretty stupid on their part.
    "The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
    — Socrates

  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    http://www.alternet.org/story/108740/
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    _outlaw wrote:
    http://www.alternet.org/story/108740/

    just awful ... this is america i suppose ...
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    supporting the war and supporting the death of Iraqi civilians are two different things. second of all, the Iraq war has very little support for a long time.

    As Collin said, you shouldn't be putting words in my mouth it only weakens your argument. Supporting the death of Iraqi civilians and viewing this happening as collateral damage are very two different ideas. No, I do not believe Americans are in a circle jerk at the thought of dead Iraqi civilians, but I have my suspicions about how many actually care or are willing to do something about it.

    You are entitled to believe that Americans care deeply about the death of Iraqi civilians caused by their military. As an outsider, I don't see it that way and it seems there are several others who agree with me.

    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    just because you dont have the balls to admit it doesnt mean its not true. besides I said I have heard others make the argument, not necessarily you. although you are saying those people living there are not innocent. I'll even gather a guess that you wouldnt feel too bad if many of the Palestinian rockets starting actually hitting their intended civilian targets.

    Do you even read what you type? You are saying I do not have the balls to admit I want Palestinians to attack Israeli civilians? Is this your argument?

    You are quoting me. Don't quote me and say I do not have the balls to admit it if OTHERS have made the argument. Mammasan was stating that they are innocent civilians, I said I'm not sure how innocent they are and now you are accusing me of wanting rockets to land on their heads. Great argument.

    Regardless of this have you seen the numbers of civilian death tolls on both sides? Have you seen the death tolls of Lebanese civilians/Hizbullah fighters and Israeli civilians/IDF soldiers in the 2006 Lebanon war? They show you who the real terrorists are.

    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    I didnt make it up pal. I was quoting the chairman of a major Arab organization.

    I absolutely think Israel so go back to the 1967 borders (or something close to it) with a shared capital. but I also don't think that would end the problem, but it would be a nice start.

    I never said you made it up. At this point in time I personally do not care what the chairman of a major Arab organization is demanding considering the Israelis are yet to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Until they do this whole argument of continued Palestinian violence after such a withdrawal is irrelevant.
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    NoK wrote:
    Not that Kadima has been a promoter of peace (considering Sharon is one of their founding members)


    very true.
  • NoK
    NoK Posts: 824
    polaris wrote:
    why do some people make it out like this israeli-palestinian conflict is an actual war?? ... we're not talking about two sides battling it out ... we're talking about one with a huge military and backing that has people living a high standard of life vs. another group that are mostly living in what we would ball in poverty, having to buy arms from wherever they can ...

    one side has the newest military technology ... the others have slingshots ...

    "Fighting a war" sounds a lot more catchy to the mainstream media than bombing the shit out of civilians and hopelessly armed militias.

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