Holy Land Foundation charity found guilty in supporting "terrorism"

fuck

pearljamfan1212 wrote:

well outlaw claims to have read the transcripts of the trail. I called bullshit.

I claimed to have sat in on the trial, talked to the lawyers, and read legal documents on it. Do I actually care if you call bullshit based on the fact that I can't post imaginary online documents for some random internet poster?

pearljamfan1212

_outlaw wrote:

It's not disagreeing with me, it's disagreeing with facts and logic.

opinions are not facts. you have no idea if or how much, money can motivate someone to do evil things. especially when they have nothing.

and to say money is not a motivator with a straight face is rather foolish.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

mammasan wrote:

I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.

It will level the playing field so to speak, and allow the Palestinians to regain their basic dignities in how they see themselves as a distinct society, and heal. Once the human spirit is rejuvenated so to speak, seemingly miraculous things seem take place.

The longer it's put off, the longer it will take. The alternative solution is wiping one side out....something Israel seems to have figured out already.

mammasan

_outlaw wrote:

Perhaps they'll be able to fix their economy and education once the occupation and oppression ceases? Is it actually logical to assume suicide bombings will continue if they're granted their own state on the 67 borders with Jerusalem as their capital?

Perhaps they can but as we have seen their own leaders are sometime the source of the oppression. I agree that the first step to improvement is freedom from oppression. Once that is accomplished it falls on the people themselves to progress. But we are straying off course here. Oppression, hopelessness and socio-economic poverty are probably the leading motivators for these attacks but it is impossible to state that these donation play no role what so ever. While I don't believe they play a large role I can't really say that with any certainty nor do I have any proof to support my opinion. Just as you have no proof to support your opinion that they play no role in motivation.

bigdvs

mammasan wrote:

It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.

fair enough, I am openly aware that I lean towards Israel most of the time in this but that only comes from the lack of truth that sometimes comes from the pro-palestinian stance. the OP with the BBC link made it seem like an unfair Gulag, no defense throw away the key, look how america has decended into chaos sort of thing and the truth was quite the opposite. glad to see some cooler heads are discussing issues now rather then just calling people stupid, invalid or ignorant.

and outlaw they were not convicted on the zakat dealings it was the tax evasion practices and "lost" money that they were giving to InfoCom that has got them locked up. That money went somewhere and if it was legit then why hide it the reality is it was hidden because its purpose was illegal and just because the government can not prove that does not give the charitable orginaztion the right to skip out on the tax evasion charge. welcome to amercian justice.

pearljamfan1212

_outlaw wrote:

I claimed to have sat in on the trial, talked to the lawyers, and read legal documents on it. Do I actually care if you call bullshit based on the fact that I can't post imaginary online documents for some random internet poster?

o wow, now you have actually sat in on this trial? doubt it. you need to face the fact that this organization has been convicted of crimes, namely money laundering and tax evasion. until you can prove otherwise, and you cant, thats the bottom line.

pearljamfan1212

here's more light reading for you

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10292007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/evil_exposed.htm?page=0

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Another sad underlying reality to consider is the overpopulation issue, as it injects humanity on both sides from the blame game perspective.

first things first however....method before madness, and all that...

polaris

i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...

mammasan

_outlaw wrote:

It's been my experience that anyone who pretends to be a "centrist" on the issue is really just excusing Israel's actions, and his/her own laziness to actually do anything about the situation.

"Until both sides come to their senses and stop using violence.... I'll keep eating this cheeseburger."

Well I can say, at least to how your comment relates to me, that it is 100% inaccurate. Both parties share blame for the current conditions. Both parties refuse to accept that they played a role in the deterioration occurring in Palestine/Israel and no matter how many people get involved in the situation to try to clear it up, nothing will ever get accomplished until both parties realize their share of the blame. So I can scream all I want about the conflict, I can march in protests, I can post on message boards, I can write my representatives but all of that will amount to nothing as long as Palestinian and Israeli leaders continue to accept responsibility for their actions. You may call this laziness, but the majority of people would call it reality and maybe it's time you join us.

mammasan

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It will level the playing field so to speak, and allow the Palestinians to regain their basic dignities in how they see themselves as a distinct society, and heal. Once the human spirit is rejuvenated so to speak, seemingly miraculous things seem take place.

The longer it's put off, the longer it will take. The alternative solution is wiping one side out....something Israel seems to have figured out already.

I completely agree and let me just state again that the occupation and oppression is definitely the greatest motivating factor. Remove them and you take away what is probably the greatest driving force behind these attacks. My point was that there are other factors that contribute to these attacks and outlaw's claim that these charitable contributions do not contribute is simply not the case.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

polaris wrote:

i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...

True...very true.

we're all the same.

mammasan

polaris wrote:

i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...

Fighting your oppressors is never wrong, but fighting your oppressor by killing scores of innocent civilians is not the answer and is not acceptable.

polaris

mammasan wrote:

Well I can say, at least to how your comment relates to me, that it is 100% inaccurate. Both parties share blame for the current conditions. Both parties refuse to accept that they played a role in the deterioration occurring in Palestine/Israel and no matter how many people get involved in the situation to try to clear it up, nothing will ever get accomplished until both parties realize their share of the blame. So I can scream all I want about the conflict, I can march in protests, I can post on message boards, I can write my representatives but all of that will amount to nothing as long as Palestinian and Israeli leaders continue to accept responsibility for their actions. You may call this laziness, but the majority of people would call it reality and maybe it's time you join us.

i'm sorry ... but this essentially to me is a cop out ... this isn't a case where two parties decided to feud all of sudden ... the history of this conflict is WELL documented - there has been no equality in this affair ever ...

whether you look at deaths (innocent or otherwise); property; land; freedom; etc.. in each case you will see that the impact has seen one side suffer WAAAAY more than the other side ...

look at all the UN resolutions against the state of israel ... this is and never will be a case of equality ...

polaris

mammasan wrote:

Fighting your oppressors is never wrong, but fighting your oppressor by killing scores of innocent civilians is not the answer and is not acceptable.

well ... then i humbly suggest you look at the stats at how many innocent israelis have died since the conflict vs. palestinians ... then i suggest you factor in other sufferings such as displacement ... it's not even close ...

mammasan

polaris wrote:

i'm sorry ... but this essentially to me is a cop out ... this isn't a case where two parties decided to feud all of sudden ... the history of this conflict is WELL documented - there has been no equality in this affair ever ...

whether you look at deaths (innocent or otherwise); property; land; freedom; etc.. in each case you will see that the impact has seen one side suffer WAAAAY more than the other side ...

look at all the UN resolutions against the state of israel ... this is and never will be a case of equality ...

So in your opinion Palestinians have only played the role of victim in this conflict, they have never played the role of aggressor. So all of those suicide bombings where innocent civilians lost there lives, where injured or mutilated was just a figment of my imagination. Regardless of the fact that no equality exists, which is extremely unfortunate, or that Israel is the authoritative power imposing it's will, the Palestinians still share blame. they have carried out unjust attacks against Israeli civilians. They have played, on many occassions, the role of the aggressor.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

mammasan wrote:

I completely agree and let me just state again that the occupation and oppression is definitely the greatest motivating factor. Remove them and you take away what is probably the greatest driving force behind these attacks. My point was that there are other factors that contribute to these attacks and outlaw's claim that these charitable contributions do not contribute is simply not the case.

Agree. To say that there aren't Palestinians that want to completely genocide all Israelis (man, woman, and child) would be incorrect. It's really become extremely polarized on both sides now.

This is why I believe Olmert when he says Israel is in perilunless there is a two state solution, and soon.

polaris

mammasan wrote:

So in your opinion Palestinians have only played the role of victim in this conflict, they have never played the role of aggressor. So all of those suicide bombings where innocent civilians lost there lives, where injured or mutilated was just a figment of my imagination. Regardless of the fact that no equality exists, which is extremely unfortunate, or that Israel is the authoritative power imposing it's will, the Palestinians still share blame. they have carried out unjust attacks against Israeli civilians. They have played, on many occassions, the role of the aggressor.

first of all - i'm not justifying the death of innocent people ... but similar to my earlier post ... if you have been oppressed for decades - what would you do?? ...

suicide bombings however cruel is a logical outcome of fucking people over again and again ...

again - if i oppress your family for generations ... are you just gonna sit idly by?? ... yeah - no one wants to see on the news some cafe goer being rushed to hospital with blood all over them ... but what about the family that died because they have no access to clean water or just basic nutrition because of a cruel blockade? ... it isn't the mind bomb news item but it can be argued a much devastating fate ...

mammasan

polaris wrote:

well ... then i humbly suggest you look at the stats at how many innocent israelis have died since the conflict vs. palestinians ... then i suggest you factor in other sufferings such as displacement ... it's not even close ...

I have an unlike you I see how the blame fall on both sides of this conflict. I don't support Israel's heavy handed tactics. I don't support Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. I clearly see the wrongs Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. Unlike many on this board, who portray the Palestinians and simply the poor victims, I also see how the Palestinians have played their role in escalating violence. How they have themselves sabotaged peace efforts. I'm not going to sit here and excuse their actions simply because Israel is the oppressor. Even under dire circumstance there are acceptable and unacceptable actions and the killing of civilians, no matter who does it or who has killed more, is completely unacceptable.

mammasan

polaris wrote:

first of all - i'm not justifying the death of innocent people ... but similar to my earlier post ... if you have been oppressed for decades - what would you do?? ...

suicide bombings however cruel is a logical outcome of fucking people over again and again ...

again - if i oppress your family for generations ... are you just gonna sit idly by?? ... yeah - no one wants to see on the news some cafe goer being rushed to hospital with blood all over them ... but what about the family that died because they have no access to clean water or just basic nutrition because of a cruel blockade? ... it isn't the mind bomb news item but it can be argued a much devastating fate ...

They are both wrong but one does not justify the other and some people on this message board seem to think that it does.