Holy Land Foundation charity found guilty in supporting "terrorism"

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Comments

  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    _outlaw wrote:
    sadly, ignorant and mindless drones like you are the ones who condone it.

    why are all your personal attacks allowed ? does this forum have rules?
  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    _outlaw wrote:
    WOW. read your own fucking article, won't you? clearly the payment is not what motivates them. maybe instead of cutting off funds to orphans and poor people we should cut off funds to Israel, who is occupying the Palestinians, leading them to such measures? Oh, that would make too much sense.

    Mahmoud Safi, leader of a pro-Iraqi Palestinian group, the Arab Liberation Front, acknowledged that the support payments for relatives make it easier for some potential bombers to make up their minds.
    _outlaw wrote:
    It's an invalid point.

    no its actually a very valid point. whether or not you agree is invalid.
    _outlaw wrote:
    Wrong. they were giving money to charities. the US deemed giving hamas money illegal, but giving money to charities, regardless of who they are run by should not be illegal.

    the reason they were convicted of tax fraud is because they were a tax-free organization due to them donating to charities. however, the govt argued that they should pay taxes because their money allegedly did not go all directly to charities, which is bullshit. same thing with money laundering, the govt alleges that they never gave the full details of the destination of the money, again--bullshit.

    did you sit in on the trail? have you read transcripts?
    _outlaw wrote:
    it all ties into the idea of supporting Palestinians, which in this country means supporting terrorism. sadly, ignorant and mindless drones like you are the ones who condone it.

    yes, many people in this country and around the world believe Hamas acts and operates as a terrorist organization.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    Mahmoud Safi, leader of a pro-Iraqi Palestinian group, the Arab Liberation Front, acknowledged that the support payments for relatives make it easier for some potential bombers to make up their minds.
    Again, you focus on stupid points. If there was no oppression, there would be no suicide attacks. The money given to orphans and poor people is irrelevant.
    no its actually a very valid point. whether or not you agree is invalid.
    just because it helps justify you wanting to persecute pro-Palestinians who help charities does not make it valid.
    did you sit in on the trail? have you read transcripts?
    Actually, yes.
    yes, many people in this country and around the world believe Hamas acts and operates as a terrorist organization.
    many people in this country are given propaganda-filled news stories, they don't understand the situation well enough, or don't want to.
  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    _outlaw wrote:

    Actually, yes.

    can you post them? or would I be calling your bluff
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    _outlaw wrote:
    That'd be nice. Before that though, maybe we can also stop the occupation of their land?

    US foreign policy is definitely the 800 pound Gorilla in the room, but even with our ridiculous foreign policy these jihadist leaders would not be able to recruit people, en mass, without the poor conditions existing on the ground. Now we can discuss how US foreign policy may lead to these conditions and how changing our foreign policy is a pre-cursor to improving the living conditions in many of these countries but that is for another time and thread.

    Also even though I disagree with pearljamfan1212 his opinion is a valid one. One can easily say that the donation of money to families of suicide bomber can be a motivating factor. I think that in a small minority of the case money may have motivated the individual but I don't think it's a significant number to actually cause these donations to be viewed as a factor.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    mammasan wrote:
    Also even though I disagree with pearljamfan1212 his opinion is a valid one. One can easily say that the donation of money to families of suicide bomber can be a motivating factor. I think that in a small minority of the case money may have motivated the individual but I don't think it's a significant number to actually cause these donations to be viewed as a factor.
    No. It's invalid. Money isn't the motivator--them being oppressed is. Pure and simple.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    can you post them? or would I be calling your bluff
    how would I post me going to the trial? how would I post my conversation with lawyers? how would I post what I read in front of me?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    _outlaw wrote:
    No. It's invalid. Money isn't the motivator--them being oppressed is. Pure and simple.

    You have no possible way of backing up that statement. You have no idea what motivates and doesn't motivate them. So in a sense his opinion is valid because until we know the motivation behind each and ever single attack we have no definitive proof that he is wrong or that you are right.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    _outlaw wrote:
    No. It's invalid. Money isn't the motivator--them being oppressed is. Pure and simple.

    are you aware that people have different points of view then you? just because you disagree with someone doesnt make it invalid...and its not pure and simple.

    take a note from mammason. its frightening clear to see you are a teenager and he is in his 30s.

    am I close?

    you have some growing up to do. and thats not an insult. I mean that sincerely.
  • bigdvs
    bigdvs Posts: 235
    outlaw,

    do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over and over again? this dead horse has been beat on alot (well a little less with the election but still we averaged a "palstenians are good israel is bad" thread or 2 a week for at least the last six months). I get it you don't agree with the US gov't or the majority of its population that feels Israel is in the right and is properly defending itself in many situations.
    But what is this doing? Are you trying to change minds or are you just bored?

    But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source. This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.
    "The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
    — Socrates

  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    bigdvs wrote:
    outlaw,

    do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over and over again? this dead horse has been beat on alot (well a little less with the election but still we averaged a "palstenians are good israel is bad" thread or 2 a week for at least the last six months). I get it you don't agree with the US gov't or the majority of its population that feels Israel is in the right and is properly defending itself in many situations.
    But what is this doing? Are you trying to change minds or are you just bored?

    But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source. This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.

    well outlaw claims to have read the transcripts of the trail. I called bullshit.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    bigdvs wrote:
    outlaw,

    do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over and over again? this dead horse has been beat on alot (well a little less with the election but still we averaged a "palstenians are good israel is bad" thread or 2 a week for at least the last six months). I get it you don't agree with the US gov't or the majority of its population that feels Israel is in the right and is properly defending itself in many situations.
    But what is this doing? Are you trying to change minds or are you just bored?

    But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source. This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.

    It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    mammasan wrote:
    You have no possible way of backing up that statement. You have no idea what motivates and doesn't motivate them. So in a sense his opinion is valid because until we know the motivation behind each and ever single attack we have no definitive proof that he is wrong or that you are right.
    you HONESTLY think if Israel were not oppressing the Palestinians, there would be suicide bombings?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    are you aware that people have different points of view then you? just because you disagree with someone doesnt make it invalid...and its not pure and simple.

    take a note from mammason. its frightening clear to see you are a teenager and he is in his 30s.

    am I close?

    you have some growing up to do. and thats not an insult. I mean that sincerely.
    what are you on about? I'm a teenager? what does this have anything to do with it? and to say I have growing up to do is actually pathetic.
  • pearljamfan1212
    pearljamfan1212 Posts: 203
    _outlaw wrote:
    what are you on about? I'm a teenager? what does this have anything to do with it? and to say I have growing up to do is actually pathetic.

    I'm just guessing that you are a teenager. anytime someone disagrees with you, you immediately dismiss it as invalid and toss out personal attacks.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    _outlaw wrote:
    you HONESTLY think if Israel were not oppressing the Palestinians, there would be suicide bombings?

    I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    bigdvs wrote:
    But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source.
    First off, comparing BBC to Fox makes no sense. Secondly, I didn't actually use them as a source, I merely quoted two lines that wasn't even just theirs: it was just accusations against the defendants. Lastly, I CRITICIZED those lines.
    This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.
    Your entire argument is actually a collection of nothing. To say things like "it was clearly exposed as a Hamas front" really doesn't say anything...

    The money wasn't going to Hamas militants, it was actually going to families and orphans, and the government admitted as much:

    "But at the trial, the government did not allege that the foundation, which was based in a Dallas suburb, paid directly for suicide bombings. Instead, the prosecution said, the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/us/22cnd-holyland.htm?_r=1&oref=slogin
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    mammasan wrote:
    I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
    Perhaps they'll be able to fix their economy and education once the occupation and oppression ceases? Is it actually logical to assume suicide bombings will continue if they're granted their own state on the 67 borders with Jerusalem as their capital?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    pearljamfan1212 wrote:
    I'm just guessing that you are a teenager. anytime someone disagrees with you, you immediately dismiss it as invalid and toss out personal attacks.
    It's not disagreeing with me, it's disagreeing with facts and logic.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    mammasan wrote:
    It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
    It's been my experience that anyone who pretends to be a "centrist" on the issue is really just excusing Israel's actions, and his/her own laziness to actually do anything about the situation.

    "Until both sides come to their senses and stop using violence.... I'll keep eating this cheeseburger."

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