do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over and over again? this dead horse has been beat on alot (well a little less with the election but still we averaged a "palstenians are good israel is bad" thread or 2 a week for at least the last six months). I get it you don't agree with the US gov't or the majority of its population that feels Israel is in the right and is properly defending itself in many situations.
But what is this doing? Are you trying to change minds or are you just bored?
But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source. This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.
well outlaw claims to have read the transcripts of the trail. I called bullshit.
do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over and over again? this dead horse has been beat on alot (well a little less with the election but still we averaged a "palstenians are good israel is bad" thread or 2 a week for at least the last six months). I get it you don't agree with the US gov't or the majority of its population that feels Israel is in the right and is properly defending itself in many situations.
But what is this doing? Are you trying to change minds or are you just bored?
But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source. This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.
It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
You have no possible way of backing up that statement. You have no idea what motivates and doesn't motivate them. So in a sense his opinion is valid because until we know the motivation behind each and ever single attack we have no definitive proof that he is wrong or that you are right.
you HONESTLY think if Israel were not oppressing the Palestinians, there would be suicide bombings?
are you aware that people have different points of view then you? just because you disagree with someone doesnt make it invalid...and its not pure and simple.
take a note from mammason. its frightening clear to see you are a teenager and he is in his 30s.
am I close?
you have some growing up to do. and thats not an insult. I mean that sincerely.
what are you on about? I'm a teenager? what does this have anything to do with it? and to say I have growing up to do is actually pathetic.
you HONESTLY think if Israel were not oppressing the Palestinians, there would be suicide bombings?
I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
But back the topic at hand, the HLF case, wow have you got this all tied up and backwards and using the BBC is no better then using FOX news as the source.
First off, comparing BBC to Fox makes no sense. Secondly, I didn't actually use them as a source, I merely quoted two lines that wasn't even just theirs: it was just accusations against the defendants. Lastly, I CRITICIZED those lines.
This was not a charity it was a front and was exposed as such, the Hamas leader, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, that seeded the money to start the "charity" had been on terrorist watch lists since 1995. Post 9-11 all of the assets of this "charity" were frozen pending investigation in the US and EU (shocking). Looking closely at the dealings of this charity and low and behold some strange things were going on with another of Marzook's businesses InfoCom. See he was using the HLF to raise funds and then using InfoCom for computer services and hiding the transactions that were funneling the money to Hamas militants (not orphans and families sorry). Its not convulted its not smoke and mirrors its what happened. I will be interested if this gets picked up for appeal but I doubt it. Not much to get worked up about, glad the system is working actually.
Your entire argument is actually a collection of nothing. To say things like "it was clearly exposed as a Hamas front" really doesn't say anything...
The money wasn't going to Hamas militants, it was actually going to families and orphans, and the government admitted as much:
"But at the trial, the government did not allege that the foundation, which was based in a Dallas suburb, paid directly for suicide bombings. Instead, the prosecution said, the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor."
I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
Perhaps they'll be able to fix their economy and education once the occupation and oppression ceases? Is it actually logical to assume suicide bombings will continue if they're granted their own state on the 67 borders with Jerusalem as their capital?
It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
It's been my experience that anyone who pretends to be a "centrist" on the issue is really just excusing Israel's actions, and his/her own laziness to actually do anything about the situation.
"Until both sides come to their senses and stop using violence.... I'll keep eating this cheeseburger."
well outlaw claims to have read the transcripts of the trail. I called bullshit.
I claimed to have sat in on the trial, talked to the lawyers, and read legal documents on it. Do I actually care if you call bullshit based on the fact that I can't post imaginary online documents for some random internet poster?
I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
It will level the playing field so to speak, and allow the Palestinians to regain their basic dignities in how they see themselves as a distinct society, and heal. Once the human spirit is rejuvenated so to speak, seemingly miraculous things seem take place.
The longer it's put off, the longer it will take. The alternative solution is wiping one side out....something Israel seems to have figured out already.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Perhaps they'll be able to fix their economy and education once the occupation and oppression ceases? Is it actually logical to assume suicide bombings will continue if they're granted their own state on the 67 borders with Jerusalem as their capital?
Perhaps they can but as we have seen their own leaders are sometime the source of the oppression. I agree that the first step to improvement is freedom from oppression. Once that is accomplished it falls on the people themselves to progress. But we are straying off course here. Oppression, hopelessness and socio-economic poverty are probably the leading motivators for these attacks but it is impossible to state that these donation play no role what so ever. While I don't believe they play a large role I can't really say that with any certainty nor do I have any proof to support my opinion. Just as you have no proof to support your opinion that they play no role in motivation.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
fair enough, I am openly aware that I lean towards Israel most of the time in this but that only comes from the lack of truth that sometimes comes from the pro-palestinian stance. the OP with the BBC link made it seem like an unfair Gulag, no defense throw away the key, look how america has decended into chaos sort of thing and the truth was quite the opposite. glad to see some cooler heads are discussing issues now rather then just calling people stupid, invalid or ignorant.
and outlaw they were not convicted on the zakat dealings it was the tax evasion practices and "lost" money that they were giving to InfoCom that has got them locked up. That money went somewhere and if it was legit then why hide it the reality is it was hidden because its purpose was illegal and just because the government can not prove that does not give the charitable orginaztion the right to skip out on the tax evasion charge. welcome to amercian justice.
"The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
— Socrates
I claimed to have sat in on the trial, talked to the lawyers, and read legal documents on it. Do I actually care if you call bullshit based on the fact that I can't post imaginary online documents for some random internet poster?
o wow, now you have actually sat in on this trial? doubt it. you need to face the fact that this organization has been convicted of crimes, namely money laundering and tax evasion. until you can prove otherwise, and you cant, thats the bottom line.
Another sad underlying reality to consider is the overpopulation issue, as it injects humanity on both sides from the blame game perspective.
first things first however....method before madness, and all that...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...
It's been my experience that anyone who pretends to be a "centrist" on the issue is really just excusing Israel's actions, and his/her own laziness to actually do anything about the situation.
"Until both sides come to their senses and stop using violence.... I'll keep eating this cheeseburger."
Well I can say, at least to how your comment relates to me, that it is 100% inaccurate. Both parties share blame for the current conditions. Both parties refuse to accept that they played a role in the deterioration occurring in Palestine/Israel and no matter how many people get involved in the situation to try to clear it up, nothing will ever get accomplished until both parties realize their share of the blame. So I can scream all I want about the conflict, I can march in protests, I can post on message boards, I can write my representatives but all of that will amount to nothing as long as Palestinian and Israeli leaders continue to accept responsibility for their actions. You may call this laziness, but the majority of people would call it reality and maybe it's time you join us.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
It will level the playing field so to speak, and allow the Palestinians to regain their basic dignities in how they see themselves as a distinct society, and heal. Once the human spirit is rejuvenated so to speak, seemingly miraculous things seem take place.
The longer it's put off, the longer it will take. The alternative solution is wiping one side out....something Israel seems to have figured out already.
I completely agree and let me just state again that the occupation and oppression is definitely the greatest motivating factor. Remove them and you take away what is probably the greatest driving force behind these attacks. My point was that there are other factors that contribute to these attacks and outlaw's claim that these charitable contributions do not contribute is simply not the case.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...
True...very true.
we're all the same.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i guarantee everyone that if i limited your daily movements; took away your land; had all my friends and family take everything you own; prevent you from visiting relatives 10 mins away - y'all would be pissed ... for gun loving americans - i don't see a peaceful resolution either ...
Fighting your oppressors is never wrong, but fighting your oppressor by killing scores of innocent civilians is not the answer and is not acceptable.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Well I can say, at least to how your comment relates to me, that it is 100% inaccurate. Both parties share blame for the current conditions. Both parties refuse to accept that they played a role in the deterioration occurring in Palestine/Israel and no matter how many people get involved in the situation to try to clear it up, nothing will ever get accomplished until both parties realize their share of the blame. So I can scream all I want about the conflict, I can march in protests, I can post on message boards, I can write my representatives but all of that will amount to nothing as long as Palestinian and Israeli leaders continue to accept responsibility for their actions. You may call this laziness, but the majority of people would call it reality and maybe it's time you join us.
i'm sorry ... but this essentially to me is a cop out ... this isn't a case where two parties decided to feud all of sudden ... the history of this conflict is WELL documented - there has been no equality in this affair ever ...
whether you look at deaths (innocent or otherwise); property; land; freedom; etc.. in each case you will see that the impact has seen one side suffer WAAAAY more than the other side ...
look at all the UN resolutions against the state of israel ... this is and never will be a case of equality ...
Fighting your oppressors is never wrong, but fighting your oppressor by killing scores of innocent civilians is not the answer and is not acceptable.
well ... then i humbly suggest you look at the stats at how many innocent israelis have died since the conflict vs. palestinians ... then i suggest you factor in other sufferings such as displacement ... it's not even close ...
i'm sorry ... but this essentially to me is a cop out ... this isn't a case where two parties decided to feud all of sudden ... the history of this conflict is WELL documented - there has been no equality in this affair ever ...
whether you look at deaths (innocent or otherwise); property; land; freedom; etc.. in each case you will see that the impact has seen one side suffer WAAAAY more than the other side ...
look at all the UN resolutions against the state of israel ... this is and never will be a case of equality ...
So in your opinion Palestinians have only played the role of victim in this conflict, they have never played the role of aggressor. So all of those suicide bombings where innocent civilians lost there lives, where injured or mutilated was just a figment of my imagination. Regardless of the fact that no equality exists, which is extremely unfortunate, or that Israel is the authoritative power imposing it's will, the Palestinians still share blame. they have carried out unjust attacks against Israeli civilians. They have played, on many occassions, the role of the aggressor.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I completely agree and let me just state again that the occupation and oppression is definitely the greatest motivating factor. Remove them and you take away what is probably the greatest driving force behind these attacks. My point was that there are other factors that contribute to these attacks and outlaw's claim that these charitable contributions do not contribute is simply not the case.
Agree. To say that there aren't Palestinians that want to completely genocide all Israelis (man, woman, and child) would be incorrect. It's really become extremely polarized on both sides now.
This is why I believe Olmert when he says Israel is in perilunless there is a two state solution, and soon.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So in your opinion Palestinians have only played the role of victim in this conflict, they have never played the role of aggressor. So all of those suicide bombings where innocent civilians lost there lives, where injured or mutilated was just a figment of my imagination. Regardless of the fact that no equality exists, which is extremely unfortunate, or that Israel is the authoritative power imposing it's will, the Palestinians still share blame. they have carried out unjust attacks against Israeli civilians. They have played, on many occassions, the role of the aggressor.
first of all - i'm not justifying the death of innocent people ... but similar to my earlier post ... if you have been oppressed for decades - what would you do?? ...
suicide bombings however cruel is a logical outcome of fucking people over again and again ...
again - if i oppress your family for generations ... are you just gonna sit idly by?? ... yeah - no one wants to see on the news some cafe goer being rushed to hospital with blood all over them ... but what about the family that died because they have no access to clean water or just basic nutrition because of a cruel blockade? ... it isn't the mind bomb news item but it can be argued a much devastating fate ...
well ... then i humbly suggest you look at the stats at how many innocent israelis have died since the conflict vs. palestinians ... then i suggest you factor in other sufferings such as displacement ... it's not even close ...
I have an unlike you I see how the blame fall on both sides of this conflict. I don't support Israel's heavy handed tactics. I don't support Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. I clearly see the wrongs Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. Unlike many on this board, who portray the Palestinians and simply the poor victims, I also see how the Palestinians have played their role in escalating violence. How they have themselves sabotaged peace efforts. I'm not going to sit here and excuse their actions simply because Israel is the oppressor. Even under dire circumstance there are acceptable and unacceptable actions and the killing of civilians, no matter who does it or who has killed more, is completely unacceptable.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
first of all - i'm not justifying the death of innocent people ... but similar to my earlier post ... if you have been oppressed for decades - what would you do?? ...
suicide bombings however cruel is a logical outcome of fucking people over again and again ...
again - if i oppress your family for generations ... are you just gonna sit idly by?? ... yeah - no one wants to see on the news some cafe goer being rushed to hospital with blood all over them ... but what about the family that died because they have no access to clean water or just basic nutrition because of a cruel blockade? ... it isn't the mind bomb news item but it can be argued a much devastating fate ...
They are both wrong but one does not justify the other and some people on this message board seem to think that it does.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Comments
well outlaw claims to have read the transcripts of the trail. I called bullshit.
It's been my experience that anyone who sides with one side in the Israeli/Palestinian issues is usually misinformed or biased, I'm not saying that you are one of these people. They tend to see it as a black and white issue ignoring the multiply shades of grey in between.
I'm just guessing that you are a teenager. anytime someone disagrees with you, you immediately dismiss it as invalid and toss out personal attacks.
I believe you would see a magnificent reduction in suicide bombing but I can't say with any certainty that all suicide bombings would cease. Israel ending their oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands will not elevate the Palestinian people. That can only be done through education and economic/political reform. So Israel can retreat back to it's 1963 borders, give Jerusalem over to the Palestinians and completely divorce themselves from intervening in Palestinian affairs and you will still have misery and poverty and violence because Israel actions will do nothing to elevate the palestinian people. That is something that they themselves have to do.
The money wasn't going to Hamas militants, it was actually going to families and orphans, and the government admitted as much:
"But at the trial, the government did not allege that the foundation, which was based in a Dallas suburb, paid directly for suicide bombings. Instead, the prosecution said, the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/us/22cnd-holyland.htm?_r=1&oref=slogin
"Until both sides come to their senses and stop using violence.... I'll keep eating this cheeseburger."
opinions are not facts. you have no idea if or how much, money can motivate someone to do evil things. especially when they have nothing.
and to say money is not a motivator with a straight face is rather foolish.
It will level the playing field so to speak, and allow the Palestinians to regain their basic dignities in how they see themselves as a distinct society, and heal. Once the human spirit is rejuvenated so to speak, seemingly miraculous things seem take place.
The longer it's put off, the longer it will take. The alternative solution is wiping one side out....something Israel seems to have figured out already.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Perhaps they can but as we have seen their own leaders are sometime the source of the oppression. I agree that the first step to improvement is freedom from oppression. Once that is accomplished it falls on the people themselves to progress. But we are straying off course here. Oppression, hopelessness and socio-economic poverty are probably the leading motivators for these attacks but it is impossible to state that these donation play no role what so ever. While I don't believe they play a large role I can't really say that with any certainty nor do I have any proof to support my opinion. Just as you have no proof to support your opinion that they play no role in motivation.
fair enough, I am openly aware that I lean towards Israel most of the time in this but that only comes from the lack of truth that sometimes comes from the pro-palestinian stance. the OP with the BBC link made it seem like an unfair Gulag, no defense throw away the key, look how america has decended into chaos sort of thing and the truth was quite the opposite. glad to see some cooler heads are discussing issues now rather then just calling people stupid, invalid or ignorant.
and outlaw they were not convicted on the zakat dealings it was the tax evasion practices and "lost" money that they were giving to InfoCom that has got them locked up. That money went somewhere and if it was legit then why hide it the reality is it was hidden because its purpose was illegal and just because the government can not prove that does not give the charitable orginaztion the right to skip out on the tax evasion charge. welcome to amercian justice.
— Socrates
o wow, now you have actually sat in on this trial? doubt it. you need to face the fact that this organization has been convicted of crimes, namely money laundering and tax evasion. until you can prove otherwise, and you cant, thats the bottom line.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10292007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/evil_exposed.htm?page=0
first things first however....method before madness, and all that...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Well I can say, at least to how your comment relates to me, that it is 100% inaccurate. Both parties share blame for the current conditions. Both parties refuse to accept that they played a role in the deterioration occurring in Palestine/Israel and no matter how many people get involved in the situation to try to clear it up, nothing will ever get accomplished until both parties realize their share of the blame. So I can scream all I want about the conflict, I can march in protests, I can post on message boards, I can write my representatives but all of that will amount to nothing as long as Palestinian and Israeli leaders continue to accept responsibility for their actions. You may call this laziness, but the majority of people would call it reality and maybe it's time you join us.
I completely agree and let me just state again that the occupation and oppression is definitely the greatest motivating factor. Remove them and you take away what is probably the greatest driving force behind these attacks. My point was that there are other factors that contribute to these attacks and outlaw's claim that these charitable contributions do not contribute is simply not the case.
True...very true.
we're all the same.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Fighting your oppressors is never wrong, but fighting your oppressor by killing scores of innocent civilians is not the answer and is not acceptable.
i'm sorry ... but this essentially to me is a cop out ... this isn't a case where two parties decided to feud all of sudden ... the history of this conflict is WELL documented - there has been no equality in this affair ever ...
whether you look at deaths (innocent or otherwise); property; land; freedom; etc.. in each case you will see that the impact has seen one side suffer WAAAAY more than the other side ...
look at all the UN resolutions against the state of israel ... this is and never will be a case of equality ...
well ... then i humbly suggest you look at the stats at how many innocent israelis have died since the conflict vs. palestinians ... then i suggest you factor in other sufferings such as displacement ... it's not even close ...
So in your opinion Palestinians have only played the role of victim in this conflict, they have never played the role of aggressor. So all of those suicide bombings where innocent civilians lost there lives, where injured or mutilated was just a figment of my imagination. Regardless of the fact that no equality exists, which is extremely unfortunate, or that Israel is the authoritative power imposing it's will, the Palestinians still share blame. they have carried out unjust attacks against Israeli civilians. They have played, on many occassions, the role of the aggressor.
Agree. To say that there aren't Palestinians that want to completely genocide all Israelis (man, woman, and child) would be incorrect. It's really become extremely polarized on both sides now.
This is why I believe Olmert when he says Israel is in perilunless there is a two state solution, and soon.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
first of all - i'm not justifying the death of innocent people ... but similar to my earlier post ... if you have been oppressed for decades - what would you do?? ...
suicide bombings however cruel is a logical outcome of fucking people over again and again ...
again - if i oppress your family for generations ... are you just gonna sit idly by?? ... yeah - no one wants to see on the news some cafe goer being rushed to hospital with blood all over them ... but what about the family that died because they have no access to clean water or just basic nutrition because of a cruel blockade? ... it isn't the mind bomb news item but it can be argued a much devastating fate ...
I have an unlike you I see how the blame fall on both sides of this conflict. I don't support Israel's heavy handed tactics. I don't support Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. I clearly see the wrongs Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. Unlike many on this board, who portray the Palestinians and simply the poor victims, I also see how the Palestinians have played their role in escalating violence. How they have themselves sabotaged peace efforts. I'm not going to sit here and excuse their actions simply because Israel is the oppressor. Even under dire circumstance there are acceptable and unacceptable actions and the killing of civilians, no matter who does it or who has killed more, is completely unacceptable.
They are both wrong but one does not justify the other and some people on this message board seem to think that it does.