List of villages destroyed by Israel in 1948-1949

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Posting articles and backing failed plans doesn't create a peace. Continuing down a failed road won't change a thing. You don't seem to acknowledge that fact. If you have unrealistic expecatations of the other half (something both sides do), you'll get failed results - which is why we see the conflict to continue in the manner it has.

what's your solution then? Just because the US and Israel disagree with the international consensus that what Israel is doing is illegal, they should be able to do whatever they want?

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

Posting articles and backing failed plans doesn't create a peace. Continuing down a failed road won't change a thing. You don't seem to acknowledge that fact. If you have unrealistic expecatations of the other half (something both sides do), you'll get failed results - which is why we see the conflict to continue in the manner it has.

Israel doesn't harbour any expectations from the Palestinians because it doesn't expect, or even want, anything from them, other than for them to vacate the only remaining land available to them.

And you keep talking about unrealistic expectations. Please elaborate.

Meanwhile I'll repost this passage from Michael Neumann which sums up the issue quite well in my opinion:

'It is sometimes alleged that complete withdrawal from the occupied territories is "impracticable" because the facts on the ground are too deeply entrenched: Israeli settlements are just too extensive and important to uproot. One can hardly take this seriously. If it was "practicable" for hundreds of thousands of stateless Palestinians to leave their homes, why is this impracticable for half as many Israeli citizens in far more comfortable and peaceful circumstances? Throughout modern history, from the waves of U.S immigration to the peaceful post-World War II population transfers, there have been far greater shifts than this movement of a few miles. In many cases, if the settlers prefer, they can simply return to their homes in the United States. "It's impraticable" seems here a stand-in for "Aw, gee, these towns are too nice to let the Arabs have them".
The significance of the withdrawal alternative is not that it represents a just solution. Arguably, justice would require much more than that - not only the abolition of Jewish sovereignty in Israel, but a full right of return, with compensation, for the Palestinians, and the eviction of Jewish inhabitants occupying Palestinian property. But the existence of the withdrawal alternative effectively completes the case against Israel. It's willful and pointless rejection of that alternative places Israel decisively in the wrong. In the first place, Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do.'

And from Chomsky:

'Today there are two options for Palestinians. One is US-Israeli abandonment of their rejectionist stance, and a settlement roughly along the lines of what was being approached at Taba, The other option is continuation of current policies, which lead, inexorably, to incorporation into Israel of what it wants: at least, Greater Jerusalem, the areas within the Separation Wall (now an Annexation Wall), the Jordan Valley, and the salients through Ma'aleh Adumim and Ariel and beyond that effectively trisect what remains, which will be broken up into unviable cantons by huge infrastructure projects, hundreds of check points, and other devices to ensure that Palestinians live like dogs.'

FiveB247x

This is a circular arguement and we're repeating ourselves. You feel Palestine has done or is doing everything possible to create peace and Israel is in the wrong in their actions. I feel both sides can do many things as I previously mentioned and merely backing one side over the other at this point in time does not help, back or follow through to a solution.

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

This is a circular arguement and we're repeating ourselves. You feel Palestine has done or is doing everything possible to create peace and Israel is in the wrong in their actions. I feel both sides can do many things as I previously mentioned and merely backing one side over the other at this point in time does not help, back or follow through to a solution.

The Palestinians are not in a position to create peace, and nobody should be expecting them to act peacefully under the present circumstances. Just as you and everyone you know wouldn't act peacefully if you were in the same situation.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

This is a circular arguement and we're repeating ourselves.

That's because you're simply ignoring facts and going to the "It doesn't matter who's right, we just need PEACE" rhetoric that is just an excuse to not do anything about Israel's crimes.

cincybearcat

FiveB247x wrote:

Posting articles and backing failed plans doesn't create a peace.

Apparently spewing hate does though...at least in some people's mind.

My opnion is, it doesn't even matter who is more wrong, it's time to put aside differences and make peace. It's time for the Palestinians to stop targeting Israeli civilians at the movies...it's time for the Israeli's to stop bulldozing the homes of innocent civilians...it's time for both sides to stop teaching their children to hate...it's time for both sides to stop arming their children...and it's time for people to stop perpetuating the problems.

FiveB247x

This is exactly my point cincybearcat. Great post. What's the saying bout throwing stones if you live in a glass house?

cincybearcat wrote:

Apparently spewing hate does though...at least in some people's mind.

My opnion is, it doesn't even matter who is more wrong, it's time to put aside differences and make peace. It's time for the Palestinians to stop targeting Israeli civilians at the movies...it's time for the Israeli's to stop bulldozing the homes of innocent civilians...it's time for both sides to stop teaching their children to hate...it's time for both sides to stop arming their children...and it's time for people to stop perpetuating the problems.

meme

_outlaw wrote:

The book I'm reading is by a prominent professor at Columbia University who sites all his information.

Is that Said?

fuck

meme wrote:

Is that Said?

He's great, but this is Rashid Khalidi, who actually took over Said's position at Columbia after he passed away.

MrBrian

cincybearcat wrote:

Apparently spewing hate does though...at least in some people's mind.

My opnion is, it doesn't even matter who is more wrong, it's time to put aside differences and make peace. It's time for the Palestinians to stop targeting Israeli civilians at the movies...it's time for the Israeli's to stop bulldozing the homes of innocent civilians...it's time for both sides to stop teaching their children to hate...it's time for both sides to stop arming their children...and it's time for people to stop perpetuating the problems.

Would be nice if life was as sweet as that. But it's not.

Put aside differences and make peace? Problem solved I guess.
---

RolandTD20Kdrummer

interesting read

http://www.jackbernstein.org/

RolandTD20Kdrummer

real nice folks do stuff like this...unbelievable...

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/ziorats/

MrBrian

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

real nice folks do stuff like this...unbelievable...

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/ziorats/

Hmmmm, I wonder....maybe America supplied these Rats for Israel and perhaps America may even of bought them cheap from China.

I think that's how it works.

FiveB247x

As long as these two groups continue to arguement and facilitate violence against one another (whether just or not), the conflict will continue in the same manner. The only way to break the cycle is for both sides to pursue non-violent measures and then begin peace talks. Both sides can make changes. Each action has a reaction and the violence just continues, whether its just or not. Both sides need to stop and get out of this continual pattern, otherwise a peace will never be had.

MrBrian wrote:

Would be nice if life was as sweet as that. But it's not.

Put aside differences and make peace? Problem solved I guess.
---

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

As long as these two groups continue to arguement and facilitate violence against one another (whether just or not), the conflict will continue in the same manner. The only way to break the cycle is for both sides to pursue non-violent measures and then begin peace talks. Both sides can make changes. Each action has a reaction and the violence just continues, whether its just or not. Both sides need to stop and get out of this continual pattern, otherwise a peace will never be had.

If that's how you justify everyone standing by and letting Israel get away with its crimes and occupation, then go ahead and do nothing.

FiveB247x

So you sit here and claim how wrong Israel is, yet it's ok for Palestinian terror groups to attack innocent victims in Israel? Is that crime ok?

_outlaw wrote:

If that's how you justify everyone standing by and letting Israel get away with its crimes and occupation, then go ahead and do nothing.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

So you sit here and claim how wrong Israel is, yet it's ok for Palestinian terror groups to attack innocent victims in Israel? Is that crime ok?

If the Palestinians were stealing land that is not theirs and displacing Israeli's by building Arab only settlements.....probably not.

The media would explode if Arabs started doing that...but you know it's all about wink wink nudge nudge for Israel to do exactly that.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

So you sit here and claim how wrong Israel is, yet it's ok for Palestinian terror groups to attack innocent victims in Israel? Is that crime ok?

These Israelis are illegally occupying Palestinian land. Even the ones that are attacked are attacked because they're living in settlements - settlements that they know are ILLEGAL. I'm not saying it's ok for Israeli civilians to be killed, however if the Israelis did not want to be attacked by the Palestinians, then they need to retreat to the internationally recognized 1967 borders.

Hamas said they are willing to negotiate once Israel does that. The ENTIRE world said Israel must do that. The only ones stopping this from happening is Israel (and through Israel, the U.S. who seems to dig their own hole deeper by supporting them).

The only way to have peace is for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories and negotiate with the Palestinians. All but 6% of the land the Israelis have now is stolen. They would be lucky to have the Palestinians willing to negotiate with the 67 borders.

FiveB247x

So your answer that is it ok because it is a reaction?

Let me explain this problem even if going by your logic and rational.

Let's say Palestine is under occupation and Israel is everything you claim about them. With this stated, we both know, any Palestinian violence towards Israeli's in any manner causes bulldozing, killing, etc... ie - violence is recipricated with violence in return. So what is your solution? You claim it is ok for some sort of retaliation by Palestinian groups, but as stated, it only further's violence back towards them, which continues the cycle. Which is exactly why we see this conflict continued in the same exact manner and the closest we've ever seen a peaceful settlement and progress was during the non-violent time during the Oslo accords.

Lastly, just as you claim Israel needs to make adjustments for Palestine to meet them in the middle for a peaceful agreement, Israel claims Palestine needs to make adjustment to meet them in the middle. Both parties need to step to the plate - not just throw around demands and wait for the other half to comply, because that doesn't and hasn't worked.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

If the Palestinians were stealing land that is not theirs and displacing Israeli's by building Arab only settlements.....probably not.

The media would explode if Arabs started doing that...but you know it's all about wink wink nudge nudge for Israel to do exactly that.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

So your answer that is it ok because it is a reaction?

Let me explain this problem even if going by your logic and rational.

Let's say Palestine is under occupation and Israel is everything you claim about them. With this stated, we both know, any Palestinian violence towards Israeli's in any manner causes bulldozing, killing, etc... ie - violence is recipricated with violence in return. So what is your solution? You claim it is ok for some sort of retaliation by Palestinian groups, but as stated, it only further's violence back towards them, which continues the cycle. Which is exactly why we see this conflict continued in the same exact manner and the closest we've ever seen a peaceful settlement and progress was during the non-violent time during the Oslo accords.

Pretty simple. Stop stealing land...

action..reaction. all throughout history....more land....and killing to take it.

hmm