You should really digest the information and articles presented sometime. It would help you learn more.
I did digest it. a two-day conference being held in Iran to examine whether the Holocaust actually happened. seems very logical to have such a conference wouldn't ya say?
I did digest it. a two-day conference being held in Iran to examine whether the Holocaust actually happened. seems very logical to have such a conference wouldn't ya say?
Yeah, I'm sure....as per the very first paragraph...
"Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".
"Express their views freely.".
According to you that seems to be a big problem........for some reason.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Yeah, I'm sure....as per the very first paragraph...
"Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".
"Express their views freely.".
According to you that seems to be a big problem........for some reason.
when those freely spoken views are to express the holocaust didnt happen, yea I have a problem it.
when those freely spoken views are to express the holocaust didnt happen, yea I have a problem it.
Oh and read the first paragraph again just in case you are still confused.
Oh btw...I never questioned at any point whether the holocaust happened.
You seem to like to making up unsubstantiated stories for yourself...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Yeah, I'm sure....as per the very first paragraph...
"Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".
"Express their views freely.".
According to you that seems to be a big problem........for some reason.
They are obviously trying to mask the fact that they are simply holding a holocaust denial event.
They are obviously trying to mask the fact that they are simply holding a holocaust denial event.
Obviously :rolleyes:
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I think the more Nazi's are demonized as inhuman entities, the more people think it can never happen again unless another Hitler comes into power and those rare circumstances are somehow recreated. I think that's a big mistake a lot of people make.
I agree with this.
lazymoon,
What is it about this statement you actually disagree with?
Or this statement (which you conveniently ignored):
We are not so different now from what happened back then is my point.
Those people living then were not so different from us. Probably a lot lees than people are willing to realize.
I happen to agree with roland, turning people who did heinous things into 'monsters' or 'inhuman beasts' is a mistake, sure their actions were monsterous or inhuman but never forget they were committed by humans. And the majority of nazis were just people like you and me.
I happen to agree with roland, turning people who did heinous things into 'monsters' or 'inhuman beasts' is a mistake, sure their actions were monsterous or inhuman but never forget they were committed by humans. And the majority of nazis were just people like you and me.
people who round up millions of innocent people and put them in gas chambers are not like me.
people who round up millions of innocent people and put them in gas chambers are not like me.
A lot of the people in Germany during that era where caught up in this nationalist pride. They where people like you and I who let their love of country become the most important thing in their life, more important than their humanity.
It's not to the same extent but look at what happened in this country after 9/11. Anyone who even dared to criticize the government was ostracized for voicing their opinion. Look at the McCarthy era as another example. People where so fired up and caught up in this sense of national pride that they where blind to the reality of their actions. No, like I said, neither of those examples is any where near what happened in Nazi Germany but it does illustrate how nationalism can turn ugly.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
A lot of the people in Germany during that era where caught up in this nationalist pride. They where people like you and I who let their love of country become the most important thing in their life, more important than their humanity.
It's not to the same extent but look at what happened in this country after 9/11. Anyone who even dared to criticize the government was ostracized for voicing their opinion. Look at the McCarthy era as another example. People where so fired up and caught up in this sense of national pride that they where blind to the reality of their actions. No, like I said, neither of those examples is any where near what happened in Nazi Germany but it does illustrate how nationalism can turn ugly.
I'm not disagreeing with this. but like you said, those examples are no where near what happened in germany
I did address the point. and how is the fact that the nazis killed millions a little irrelevant detail?
Do you agree that nazis were people i.e. humans i.e. Homo sapiens? Do you agree that through propaganda, indoctrination, economical crises, fear of attacks and so on humans can become inhuman? Do you agree that it is important to always remember that instead of only focusing on the extreme nature of their crimes?
And that fact that the nazis killed millions is not irrelevant. But unless you're an linguistically inept idiot or just your average idiot, you should have know that by "you or me" I did not mean you or me are nazi who kill millions of people. You should have known that I meant, these people were just like us before they were indoctrinated, before they turned into murderers and worse. But no, you chose to say you were not a nazi, though, I hope, you knew damn well that was not my point or roland's point. That is what I meant by focusing on irrelevant things.
Which is why (imo) it's of notable importance to get a general consensus on the method(s) employed to arrive at the numbers.
It puts a proper perspective on what ultimately took place, and helps one to better understand who would/could have been capable of doing what, and under what circumstances.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Do you agree that nazis were people i.e. humans i.e. Homo sapiens? Do you agree that through propaganda, indoctrination, economical crises, fear of attacks and so on humans can become inhuman? Do you agree that it is important to always remember that instead of only focusing on the extreme nature of their crimes?
And that fact that the nazis killed millions is not irrelevant. But unless you're an linguistically inept idiot or just your average idiot, you should have know that by "you or me" I did not mean you or me are nazi who kill millions of people. You should have known that I meant, these people were just like us before they were indoctrinated, before they turned into murderers and worse. But no, you chose to say you were not a nazi, though, I hope, you knew damn well that was not my point or roland's point. That is what I meant by focusing on irrelevant things.
so you and your buddy roland want to celebrate that fact that the nazis were humans too? great, have a good time.
so you and your buddy roland want to celebrate that fact that the nazis were humans too? great, have a good time.
allrighty then
g-night John Boy...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
so you and your buddy roland want to celebrate that fact that the nazis were humans too? great, have a good time.
Thats just fucking lazy! Address the fucking issue!
Genuine question here: Why do you think McCarthyism and the Post 9/11 USA are nothing like the state of National Pride during Nazism - im really curious about that ....What if there had been more attacks on US soil in the aftermath...can you not imagine there would have been a sense of strengthened national solidarity, a fuck you to the world?
thats basically how nazism started, so i dont see how you can say theyre totally different....but id love to hear some points
people who round up millions of innocent people and put them in gas chambers are not like me.
What are they like then? Care to elaborate?
And how do you differentiate between nazi death squads ( Aka 'Sondakommando' units - special police battalions) and the American G.I's who massacred over 300 men women and children in cold blood at My Lai in Vietnam?
You should try reading 'Hitlers willing executioners'. It may surprise you.
'Goldhagen's gripping and shocking landmark study transforms our understanding of the Holocaust. Refuting the widespread notion that those who carried out the genocide of Jews were primarily SS men or Nazi party members, he demonstrates that the perpetrators - those who staffed and oversaw the concentration camps, slave labor camps, genocidal army units, police battalions, ghettos, death marches - were, for the most part, ordinary German men and women: merchants, civil servants, academics, farmers, students, managers, skilled and unskilled workers. Rejecting the conventional view that the killers were slavishly carrying out orders under coercion, Goldhagen, assistant professor of government at Harvard, uses hitherto untapped primary sources, including the testimonies of the perpetrators themselves, to show that they killed Jews willingly, approvingly, even zealously. Hitler's genocidal program of a "Final Solution" found ready accomplices in these ordinary Germans who, as Goldhagen persuasively argues, had absorbed a virulent, "eliminationist" anti-Semitism, prevalent as far back as the 18th century, which demonized the Jews and called for their expulsion or physical annihilation. Furthermore, his research reveals that a large proportion of the killers were told by their commanders that they could disobey orders to kill, without fear of retribution?yet they slaughtered Jews anyway. By his careful estimate, hundreds of thousands of Germans were directly involved in the mass murder, and millions more knew of the ongoing genocide. Among the 30 photographs are snapshots taken by the murderers of themselves and their victims'.
Thats just fucking lazy! Address the fucking issue!
lol...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
This thread took an interesting turn, but it certainly doesn't relate back to the original thread, the subject of which had to do with Israel being behind Columbine or some crazy notion. The source matererial used came from anti-semites who have been discredited by anyone with a brain. The point of the early responses were to call out the OP for posting bullshit conspiracy theories from incredibly backward sources. I'm sure the OP likes the turn the thread took because it took the heat and focus off of him for propagating the bullshit, and turned the thread into some sort of sociological analysis of a society's ability to commit genocide. While I am generally in agreement that this sort of thing can happen to any society gradually, it wasn't the intent of the OP to create that discussion. He merely jumped on the bandwagon after the detour. The original notion put forth early in this thread is absolute bullshit, and should be called such.
So bringing it back on track, who here thinks Israel was behind Columbine?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
This thread took an interesting turn, but it certainly doesn't relate back to the original thread, the subject of which had to do with Israel being behind Columbine or some crazy notion. The source matererial used came from anti-semites who have been discredited by anyone with a brain. The point of the early responses were to call out the OP for posting bullshit conspiracy theories from incredibly backward sources. I'm sure the OP likes the turn the thread took because it took the heat and focus off of him for propagating the bullshit, and turned the thread into some sort of sociological analysis of a society's ability to commit genocide. While I am generally in agreement that this sort of thing can happen to any society gradually, it wasn't the intent of the OP to create that discussion. He merely jumped on the bandwagon after the detour. The original notion put forth early in this thread is absolute bullshit, and should be called such.
So bringing it back on track, who here thinks Israel was behind Columbine?
the OP has been exposed many times now. thanks for summing it up perfectly.
This thread took an interesting turn, but it certainly doesn't relate back to the original thread, the subject of which had to do with Israel being behind Columbine or some crazy notion. The source matererial used came from anti-semites who have been discredited by anyone with a brain. The point of the early responses were to call out the OP for posting bullshit conspiracy theories from incredibly backward sources. I'm sure the OP likes the turn the thread took because it took the heat and focus off of him for propagating the bullshit, and turned the thread into some sort of sociological analysis of a society's ability to commit genocide. While I am generally in agreement that this sort of thing can happen to any society gradually, it wasn't the intent of the OP to create that discussion. He merely jumped on the bandwagon after the detour. The original notion put forth early in this thread is absolute bullshit, and should be called such.
So bringing it back on track, who here thinks Israel was behind Columbine?
the thread title is "an interesting angle" not "these guys probably did this"
I'm beginning to think discussion on this board is becoming a dying art...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
the OP has been exposed many times now. thanks for summing it up perfectly.
speaking of exposed...
create any new user names lately?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
This thread took an interesting turn, but it certainly doesn't relate back to the original thread, the subject of which had to do with Israel being behind Columbine or some crazy notion. The source matererial used came from anti-semites who have been discredited by anyone with a brain. The point of the early responses were to call out the OP for posting bullshit conspiracy theories from incredibly backward sources. I'm sure the OP likes the turn the thread took because it took the heat and focus off of him for propagating the bullshit, and turned the thread into some sort of sociological analysis of a society's ability to commit genocide. While I am generally in agreement that this sort of thing can happen to any society gradually, it wasn't the intent of the OP to create that discussion. He merely jumped on the bandwagon after the detour. The original notion put forth early in this thread is absolute bullshit, and should be called such.
So bringing it back on track, who here thinks Israel was behind Columbine?
Roland said in his sixth post: "it's a bit of a stretch...but interesting to read about"
He never said he agreed with that site. Never. But sadly many people here seemed to have missed the posts in which he stated this (more than one post). They deliberately kept on putting words into his mouth, twisting his words and calling him names. Lots of people even agreed that some things were exaggerated (like lamps made from skin or what was it?). They ignored that and went on to accuse him of more things and went on with attacking him.
To me it seems a lot of posters weren't even interested in debating, just attacking someone.
Comments
I did digest it. a two-day conference being held in Iran to examine whether the Holocaust actually happened. seems very logical to have such a conference wouldn't ya say?
"Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".
"Express their views freely.".
According to you that seems to be a big problem........for some reason.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
when those freely spoken views are to express the holocaust didnt happen, yea I have a problem it.
Oh and read the first paragraph again just in case you are still confused.
Oh btw...I never questioned at any point whether the holocaust happened.
You seem to like to making up unsubstantiated stories for yourself...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
They are obviously trying to mask the fact that they are simply holding a holocaust denial event.
Obviously :rolleyes:
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I agree with this.
lazymoon,
What is it about this statement you actually disagree with?
Or this statement (which you conveniently ignored):
I happen to agree with roland, turning people who did heinous things into 'monsters' or 'inhuman beasts' is a mistake, sure their actions were monsterous or inhuman but never forget they were committed by humans. And the majority of nazis were just people like you and me.
naděje umírá poslední
people who round up millions of innocent people and put them in gas chambers are not like me.
So you honestly think all nazis were born evil? That people cannot become evil?
I'm sure it had nothing to do with other circumstances such as economical crisis, propaganda, indoctrination, ...
naděje umírá poslední
I never said they were born evil.
Then just address the point instead of focusing on little irrelevant details.
naděje umírá poslední
I did address the point. and how is the fact that the nazis killed millions a little irrelevant detail?
A lot of the people in Germany during that era where caught up in this nationalist pride. They where people like you and I who let their love of country become the most important thing in their life, more important than their humanity.
It's not to the same extent but look at what happened in this country after 9/11. Anyone who even dared to criticize the government was ostracized for voicing their opinion. Look at the McCarthy era as another example. People where so fired up and caught up in this sense of national pride that they where blind to the reality of their actions. No, like I said, neither of those examples is any where near what happened in Nazi Germany but it does illustrate how nationalism can turn ugly.
I'm not disagreeing with this. but like you said, those examples are no where near what happened in germany
Do you agree that nazis were people i.e. humans i.e. Homo sapiens? Do you agree that through propaganda, indoctrination, economical crises, fear of attacks and so on humans can become inhuman? Do you agree that it is important to always remember that instead of only focusing on the extreme nature of their crimes?
And that fact that the nazis killed millions is not irrelevant. But unless you're an linguistically inept idiot or just your average idiot, you should have know that by "you or me" I did not mean you or me are nazi who kill millions of people. You should have known that I meant, these people were just like us before they were indoctrinated, before they turned into murderers and worse. But no, you chose to say you were not a nazi, though, I hope, you knew damn well that was not my point or roland's point. That is what I meant by focusing on irrelevant things.
naděje umírá poslední
It puts a proper perspective on what ultimately took place, and helps one to better understand who would/could have been capable of doing what, and under what circumstances.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
so you and your buddy roland want to celebrate that fact that the nazis were humans too? great, have a good time.
Yes. Me and my buddy Roland want to celebrate the fact that the nazis were human too. Thanks, we will.
naděje umírá poslední
No it's not the same but they all share the same reason as to why it happened.
allrighty then
g-night John Boy...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Thats just fucking lazy! Address the fucking issue!
Genuine question here: Why do you think McCarthyism and the Post 9/11 USA are nothing like the state of National Pride during Nazism - im really curious about that ....What if there had been more attacks on US soil in the aftermath...can you not imagine there would have been a sense of strengthened national solidarity, a fuck you to the world?
thats basically how nazism started, so i dont see how you can say theyre totally different....but id love to hear some points
What are they like then? Care to elaborate?
And how do you differentiate between nazi death squads ( Aka 'Sondakommando' units - special police battalions) and the American G.I's who massacred over 300 men women and children in cold blood at My Lai in Vietnam?
You should try reading 'Hitlers willing executioners'. It may surprise you.
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209786885&sr=8-1
'Goldhagen's gripping and shocking landmark study transforms our understanding of the Holocaust. Refuting the widespread notion that those who carried out the genocide of Jews were primarily SS men or Nazi party members, he demonstrates that the perpetrators - those who staffed and oversaw the concentration camps, slave labor camps, genocidal army units, police battalions, ghettos, death marches - were, for the most part, ordinary German men and women: merchants, civil servants, academics, farmers, students, managers, skilled and unskilled workers. Rejecting the conventional view that the killers were slavishly carrying out orders under coercion, Goldhagen, assistant professor of government at Harvard, uses hitherto untapped primary sources, including the testimonies of the perpetrators themselves, to show that they killed Jews willingly, approvingly, even zealously. Hitler's genocidal program of a "Final Solution" found ready accomplices in these ordinary Germans who, as Goldhagen persuasively argues, had absorbed a virulent, "eliminationist" anti-Semitism, prevalent as far back as the 18th century, which demonized the Jews and called for their expulsion or physical annihilation. Furthermore, his research reveals that a large proportion of the killers were told by their commanders that they could disobey orders to kill, without fear of retribution?yet they slaughtered Jews anyway. By his careful estimate, hundreds of thousands of Germans were directly involved in the mass murder, and millions more knew of the ongoing genocide. Among the 30 photographs are snapshots taken by the murderers of themselves and their victims'.
lol...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
So bringing it back on track, who here thinks Israel was behind Columbine?
the OP has been exposed many times now. thanks for summing it up perfectly.
the thread title is "an interesting angle" not "these guys probably did this"
I'm beginning to think discussion on this board is becoming a dying art...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
speaking of exposed...
create any new user names lately?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
now im LOLing
So you actually agree that something like a holocaust can happen anywhere and to anyone and nazis were indeed human just like the people today?
Cool.
naděje umírá poslední
Roland said in his sixth post: "it's a bit of a stretch...but interesting to read about"
He never said he agreed with that site. Never. But sadly many people here seemed to have missed the posts in which he stated this (more than one post). They deliberately kept on putting words into his mouth, twisting his words and calling him names. Lots of people even agreed that some things were exaggerated (like lamps made from skin or what was it?). They ignored that and went on to accuse him of more things and went on with attacking him.
To me it seems a lot of posters weren't even interested in debating, just attacking someone.
naděje umírá poslední