Obama: I pledge allegiance to Israel

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Comments

  • keep in mind that debating with someone like MLC2006 is a waste of time when his argument is "which illegal settlements are you talking about?"...


    Precisely, and anti-semitic insults are coming from that level of understanding.

    Life is too short...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    yeah, posting a website link from an anti-Israel "news agency" reporting on imaginary atrocities in order to defame Jews.....I'd call that anti-Semitic.

    In order to defame Jews? Does Israel's government and military suddenly speak for the entire worldwide Jewish population?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • wolfamongwolveswolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    MLC2006 wrote:
    by "green line", you are referring to the boundary line that the Palesinian government refuses to recognize, correct?

    Correct. And the one that the Israeli government also refuses to accept. Since the discussion is about Israeli action, your point is irrelevant, and - given that you seem to be criticising in Palestine what you willingly overlook in Israel - hypocritical
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • wolfamongwolveswolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    MLC2006 wrote:
    yeah, posting a website link from an anti-Israel "news agency" reporting on imaginary atrocities in order to defame Jews.....I'd call that anti-Semitic.

    Equating criticism of Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism is lazy, utterly illegitimate and serves to undermine your position far more than support it.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • http://peoplesgeography.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/palestinian_boy_mr_fish_cartoon.jpg

    Thanks to Abook for posting this is the Mr. Fish thread. :)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    why do the 'occupied' territories exist anyway?
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  • http://peoplesgeography.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/palestinian_boy_mr_fish_cartoon.jpg

    Thanks to Abook for posting this is the Mr. Fish thread. :)

    I agree. Have had him in my sig for a couple weeks...was going to get a round to posting a cache of his work.

    http://harpers.org/media/image/art/cartoons/mrfish/IsraeliRealEstateAgent_703x567.jpg
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    I agree. Have had him in my sig for a couple weeks...was going to get a round to posting a cache of his work.

    http://harpers.org/media/image/art/cartoons/mrfish/IsraeliRealEstateAgent_703x567.jpg

    That Mr Fish is sad but hilarious. good one !
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    keep in mind that debating with someone like MLC2006 is a waste of time when his argument is "which illegal settlements are you talking about?"...

    I've asked several times, in a very serious manner, what ILLEGAL settlements are being referred to? illegal how? established when? I've not gotten an answer yet.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    In order to defame Jews? Does Israel's government and military suddenly speak for the entire worldwide Jewish population?

    my bad. only HALF of the worldwide Jewish population lives in Israel. but I think we all understand which Jews were being discussed in this thread.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    Correct. And the one that the Israeli government also refuses to accept. Since the discussion is about Israeli action, your point is irrelevant, and - given that you seem to be criticising in Palestine what you willingly overlook in Israel - hypocritical

    the Israeli government accepted these lines when they were first drawn up. only after the Arab nations got together to declare war on Israel did Israel re-draw the lines.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    Equating criticism of Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism is lazy, utterly illegitimate and serves to undermine your position far more than support it.

    when one posts a "story" from a site like sabbath.biz, a story that can't be backed up by any legitimate news agency, I see it for exactly what it is. thanks.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    why do the 'occupied' territories exist anyway?

    that's the best question asked in this whole thread. ask it to Roland and I'm sure he can find something on jewconspiracy.com to give you a "legitimate" answer.
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    my bad. only HALF of the worldwide Jewish population lives in Israel. but I think we all understand which Jews were being discussed in this thread.

    I don't think anyone has a problem with the Israeli people as a whole. It's with their government and military, who are committing terrorist acts. Are you going to call me an anti-Semite for that? Am I anti-every-other-religion for condemning any kind of terrorist action?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    I don't think anyone has a problem with the Israeli people as a whole. It's with their government and military, who are committing terrorist acts. Are you going to call me an anti-Semite for that? Am I anti-every-other-religion for condemning any kind of terrorist action?

    no I'm not. I would call you "anti-semite" though if you chose to post links of imaginary news stories. but I WILL say that if you only point the "committing terrorist acts" finger at the Israelis and put no blame on the Palestinians, then you are completely ignorant as to what is going on there.

    and also, I think there are PLENTY of people that have a problem with the Israeli people as a whole. history has shown just that, as well as propaganda that is being spewed even to this day.
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    no I'm not. I would call you "anti-semite" though if you chose to post links of imaginary news stories. but I WILL say that if you only point the "committing terrorist acts" finger at the Israelis and put no blame on the Palestinians, then you are completely ignorant as to what is going on there.

    and also, I think there are PLENTY of people that have a problem with the Israeli people as a whole. history has shown just that, as well as propaganda that is being spewed even to this day.

    Okay, let me rephrase - I don't think anyone in this thread has a problem with the Israeli people. But the reality is that Israeli soldiers are killing far more people than the Palestinians are, so Israel is going to come under that much more fire when people discuss it.

    And just to be clear, when I say "Israel is going to come under that much more fire", I mean the people committing the acts, not the people as a whole.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    Okay, let me rephrase - I don't think anyone in this thread has a problem with the Israeli people. But the reality is that Israeli soldiers are killing far more people than the Palestinians are, so Israel is going to come under that much more fire when people discuss it.

    And just to be clear, when I say "Israel is going to come under that much more fire", I mean the people committing the acts, not the people as a whole.

    I think there is at least one person on this thread that has a major problem with the Israeli people.

    Israel is killing more than the Palestinians because they have better firepower. no more, no less. don't think for a minute that the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries wouldn't wipe Israel off the map if they were able to do it and get away with it.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    MLC2006 wrote:
    I think there is at least one person on this thread that has a major problem with the Israeli people.

    Israel is killing more than the Palestinians because they have better firepower. no more, no less. don't think for a minute that the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries wouldn't wipe Israel off the map if they were able to do it and get away with it.

    facts vs opinion.
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    I think there is at least one person on this thread that has a major problem with the Israeli people.

    Israel is killing more than the Palestinians because they have better firepower. no more, no less. don't think for a minute that the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries wouldn't wipe Israel off the map if they were able to do it and get away with it.

    I disagree - Israel is killing more than the Palestinians because they attack indiscriminately in civilian areas. And no, I don't think Palestine is looking to wipe Israel off the map. A lot of that "wiping Israel off the map" talk is the same kind of fear-mongering America used to justify attacking and occupying Iraq - ie. if the people are scared enough, any kind of "defense" will seem justified.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    MLC2006 wrote:
    I'm not following. I'm assuming that by saying "illegally occupying land", you mean they have no right to be where they are? is that what you're saying?


    http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html


    International Law
    International humanitarian law prohibits [an] occupying power [from transferring] citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Fourth Geneva Convention, article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit the occupying power [from undertaking] permanent changes in the occupied area, unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.
    The establishment of the settlements leads to the violation of the rights of the Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe on the rights to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.

    Taking Control of the Land
    Israel has used a complex legal and bureaucratic mechanism to take control of more than fifty percent of the land in the West Bank. This land has been used mainly to establish settlements and create reserves of land for the future expansion of the settlements.
    Israel uses the seized lands to benefit the settlements, while prohibiting the Palestinian public from using them in any way. This use is forbidden and illegal in itself. As the occupier in the Occupied Territories, Israel is not permitted to ignore the needs of an entire population and to use land intended for public needs solely to benefit the settlers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

    UN Security Council
    The establishment and expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been described as "having no legal validity" by the UN Security Council in resolutions 446, 452, 465 and 471. These resolutions were made under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter which relates to the "Pacific Settlement of Disputes" between parties, and as such have no enforcement mechanisms and are generally considered to have no binding force under international law.[40] In 1971, however, a majority of the then International Court of Justice (ICJ) members asserted in the non-binding Namibia advisory opinion that all UN Security Council resolutions are legally binding.

    The European Union considers the settlements to be illegal,[45] and an April 21, 1978 opinion of the Legal Adviser of the Department of State to the United States Congress on the legal status of Israeli settlements concluded that "[w]hile Israel may undertake, in the occupied territories, actions necessary to meet its military needs and to provide for orderly government during the occupation, for the reasons indicated above the establishment of the civilian settlements in those territories is inconsistent with international law."[

    Fourth Geneva Convention
    On 15 July 1999 a conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention met at the United Nations headquarters in Geneva. It ruled that the Convention did apply in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem.[69][70] The Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention held in Geneva on December 5, 2001 called upon "the Occupying Power to fully and effectively respect the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and to refrain from perpetrating any violation of the Convention." The High Contracting Parties reaffirmed "the illegality of the settlements in the said territories and of the extension thereof."[71]
    U.N. Security Council Resolution 446 refers directly to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and specifically insists that Israel desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup.


    The annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights Law have both been deemed illegal by the UN Security Council (resolutions 267 and 497 respectively), and have not been recognized by other states.
    Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt (removing all Israeli settlements and returning the Sinai Peninsula to Egyptian sovereignty), and Jordan (returning small sections to Jordanian sovereignty); there are currently no peace treaties governing Israel's borders related to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Israel therefore asserts that the armistice lines (known as the Green Line) of 1949 have no other legal status.
    Palestinians object to this view as the Israel-Jordan peace treaty was not to alter the status of any territories coming under Israeli control during the hostilities of 1967 (article 3(2) of the Israel-Jordan peace treaty).[39]

    International human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced the settlements as illegal
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html

    'Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
    Under this regime, Israel has stolen hundreds of thousands of dunam of land from the Palestinians. Israel has used this land to establish dozens of settlements in the West Bank and to populate them with hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens. Israel prohibits the Palestinians as a group from entering and using these lands, and uses the settlements to justify numerous violations of the Palestinians’ human rights, such as the right to housing, to earn a livelihood, and the right to freedom of movement. The drastic change that Israel has made in the map of the West Bank prevents any real possibility for the establishment of an independent, viable Palestinian state as part of the Palestinians’ right to self-determination.
    The settlers, on the contrary, benefit from all the rights available to Israeli citizens living within the Green Line [Israel proper], and in some cases are even granted additional rights. The great effort that Israel has invested in the settlement enterprise – in financial, legal and bureaucratic terms – has turned the settlements into civilian enclaves in an area under military rule, with the settlers being given priority status. To perpetuate this situation, which is a priori illegal, Israel has continuously breached the rights of the Palestinians.
    Particularly evident is Israel’s manipulative use of legal tools in order to give the settlement enterprise an impression of legality. In so doing, Israel trampled on numerous restrictions and prohibitions established in the international conventions to which it is party, and which were intended to limit infringement of human rights and to protect populations under occupation.'
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
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    i just need to say
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm

    The Geneva Convention

    It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel are illegal.

    Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:

    "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

    Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

    The United States has in the past called the settlements illegal, but has more recently used milder language, at least in public.

    However, the Mitchell report into the causes of Palestinian-Israeli violence that began in September 2000 said:

    "...customary international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibits Israel (as an occupying power) from establishing settlements in occupied territory pending an end to the conflict."
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    that's the best question asked in this whole thread. ask it to Roland and I'm sure he can find something on jewconspiracy.com to give you a "legitimate" answer.

    I've already shredded your BS claims about my sources if you need to know what time it is.

    You're failing miserably thus far in expressing your wealth of information you claim to possess.

    I'm not seeing anything from your camp these days outside of random opinion.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    MLC2006 wrote:
    I've asked several times, in a very serious manner, what ILLEGAL settlements are being referred to? illegal how? established when? I've not gotten an answer yet.


    i answered you a few pages ago
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    MLC2006 wrote:
    when one posts a "story" from a site like sabbath.biz, a story that can't be backed up by any legitimate news agency, I see it for exactly what it is. thanks.


    i posted something from an official israeli government site, amnesty international and the independent...

    here's a list of things from the international committee of the red cross:
    http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/(PSearch)?SearchView&Query=israel&searchWv=1&searchFuzzy=1&SearchOrder=1&SearchMax=0&style=Custo_results_search2

    are they anit-semetic, too???

    and they have some articles that can solve the mystery of 'what occupied territories?'

    here's the rotten anti-semites at UNICEF:
    http://www.unicef.org/search/search.php?q=palestinian&Go.x=0&Go.y=0

    http://www.unicef.org/search/search.php?q=israel
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    MLC2006 wrote:
    I think there is at least one person on this thread that has a major problem with the Israeli people.

    Israel is killing more than the Palestinians because they have better firepower. no more, no less. don't think for a minute that the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries wouldn't wipe Israel off the map if they were able to do it and get away with it.


    oh, well, i guess that makes it all ok, then!!!!

    nothing to say on the statistics i posted from an official israeli government site or how in a few days this year israel killed more palesitinians than israelis were killed in a 5 year span?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    MLC2006 wrote:
    no I'm not. I would call you "anti-semite" though if you chose to post links of imaginary news stories. but I WILL say that if you only point the "committing terrorist acts" finger at the Israelis and put no blame on the Palestinians, then you are completely ignorant as to what is going on there.

    and also, I think there are PLENTY of people that have a problem with the Israeli people as a whole. history has shown just that, as well as propaganda that is being spewed even to this day.

    hmm what do yuo suggest a people do when they are dispossessed of their land, not allowed the right of return when they flee during wartime? should they hold hands sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya? or should they do what you and i would do in the same circumstance, and oppose with everything they have and any way they can?
    the palestinians didnt decide one day to target israeli jews just for the heck of it. the way you go on id swear you thought the palestinians had no grievances that need to be addressed.
    fascinating how the oppressed has become the oppressor dont you think?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • "Overheard in Jerusalem -- This is my house!"

    http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/overheard-in-jerusalem-this-is-my-house/

    "“Let the Israelis admit their wrongdoing in 1948,” said Assaly. “Then there will be room for healing.”"
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • sweetpotatosweetpotato Posts: 1,278
    Precisely, and anti-semitic insults are coming from that level of understanding.

    Life is too short...

    so then don't debate with him at all! it's still not a reason to insult him. and if he insulted you first (or you think he did), you can still be the bigger person and move on.
    "Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."

    "Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore

    "i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
    ~ed, 8/7
  • so then don't debate with him at all! it's still not a reason to insult him. and if he insulted you first (or you think he did), you can still be the bigger person and move on.

    I reserve the right to clarify any slanderous remarks made towards me.

    And why may I ask are you singling me out in this situation?

    gmab...read the thread and see for yourself. I'd say it again given the same circumstances.

    (I think perhaps someone is still a little sore over differing opinions on Obama...)
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
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