Chavez!!! Penns Buddy??

13

Comments

  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    American corporate agriculture is heavily subsidized and NAFTA has allowed subsidized American corn to flood the Mexican market putting Mexican farmers out of work leading to a result of increased attempts at illegal immigration to work on american farms.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/31/MNGIVK8BHP1.DTL

    i agree.
    a lot of WTO issues revolve around the US (and EU) subsidizing industries that destroy chances that south-eastern asian countries and african countries have of competing and growing economically. Subsidizing is a great way of keeping people paid for their work in your own country but its anti-competitive by nature and someone somewhere gets fucked over as a result.

    i think the whole thing about the natural resources seems to be extending into everything he's doing - creating a sense of patriotism/nationality in Venezuela. But he is what he is. a Castro wanabe

    i think irelands a good example of a better democracy than the US.
  • EbizzieEbizzie Posts: 240
    How exactly did this turn to a thread about the US and Georgie boy? The US plays a very small part in this equation that Chavez has developed.

    While Cosmo brings up a very valid point that Venezuela, namely it's vast lower class, has not had the opportunity to cash in on the nation's natural resource of oil. Multi-nationals have been robbing that country blind for decades. So Chavez nationalized the oil industries AFTER giving the companies an opportunity to give a very large chunk of profits to the government for the right to stay in country. The companies denied the offer and Chavez nationalized oil. Socialist? Yes. Necessary? Probably. If there were domestic companies in place capable of pumping the crude then nationalization of the industry would have been questionable, imo, but, as far as I know, there are no Venezuelan private companies which would qualify. The government is now rolling in oil money which has created a great opportunity for Chavez to turn his country around and invest in the people. Has he? No. He's investing in himself and his lifelong desire to be like Castro. This referendum has 69 changes in law rolled into one question. He's counting on the ignorant lower class to give him the power he craves (assuming a "fair" referendum takes place). He has shut down anti-Chavez media outlets, he hangs out with the shadiest characters in the world (Castro, Ahmenijaad, Kim Jong Il, Mugabe, etc.). These characters aren't just shady to the Americans, they are recognized threats to the entire world and looked upon as some of the worst leaders out there, by any nation's standards. Unless you're a total nutjob, these aren't the people you choose to align yourself with if your true interest is to create a Venezuela that the world respects and wants to trade with. The scary part, and the part that the rest of the world needs to understand, is that Chavez's unending power and high oil incomes mean more money being passed between 3 or 4 of the shadiest countries in the world. America is not the only country threatened by the results of tomorrow's referendum.
    "Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
  • 810wmb wrote:

    You're about as accurate as a cross-eyed dunk with a crooked rifle.

    reality is a bitch...
    http://www.youtube.com/v/GARJiDFXs2E
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    You're about as accurate as a cross-eyed dunk with a crooked rifle.

    reality is a bitch...
    http://www.youtube.com/v/GARJiDFXs2E


    cry me a fuckin river...thank bill clinton
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • 810wmb wrote:
    cry me a fuckin river...thank bill clinton

    I'm sure a lot of innocent children around the world are crying you your river right now.

    Clinton/Bush...same deal.. It's a little bit bigger than that right left petty argument.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    I'm sure a lot of innocent children around the world are crying you your river right now.

    Clinton/Bush...same deal.. It's a little bit bigger than that right left petty argument.

    hey yr right

    it's the all of america sucks dick argument

    fuck canada
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • 810wmb wrote:
    hey yr right

    it's the all of america sucks dick argument

    fuck canada

    You started drinking early tonight I see...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Here I go again, playing my broken record.

    To clarify a few things: oil and iron were nationalized in Venezuela in 1976, it was done by Frmr. President Carlos Andrés Pérez. Just get this fact straight.

    About the shutting down of RCTV, this time I won't bother to explain why it was wrong in terms of legality, Constitutionality and Freedom of Speech. It is useless. PFS's have won this battle.

    First and foremost, in some European countries there are no limits to reelections, but those are Parliamentary Regimes and check and balances actually exist. Venezuela has a Presidential Regime. So there's a significant difference in terms of the power given to Congress to counter balance Prime Ministers in Europe.

    Second, right now in Venezuela there's not single governmental institution acting as a counter balance. All Congress members are from Chavez' political parties (yes, the opposition can only blame itself for this). Judiciary Power is entirely controled by Chavez as well. An so on.

    Third, this reform -besides the indefinite reelection- has other very troubling issues. 1) Governors will no longer be elected by popular vote, if this Reform passes, Chavez will be have the power to appoint Governors. The Reform also included the re-arrangement of Venezuela's geographical division, which will dilute whatever little power the opposition has in some areas, namely Caracas. 2) the Reform will give the President (Chavez) the attribution to decree state of exception whenever he wants to, without Congress approval. During such states of exception, all Constitutional Guarantees will be out of effect as well as Habeas Corpus.

    Fourth, Central Bank will no longer be independent. Actually this would only serve as an "outing" 'cause it's been years since Venezuela's Central Bank acted with independence from the Executive.

    Both the Reform and Venezuela's current situation should be analyzed separately from Bush. Some of you guys from developed countries are unable to analyze things without falling into the already beaten to death issue of "pro or anti USA".

    If this Reform passes, and sadly I believe it will, whatever little democratic space remaining in Venezuela will be extinguished. But, hey, as long as he's opposing Bush I guess it is OK, right? If this Reform would be taking place in, let's say (I'll fall into the cliche) the US, herds of people would be tearing up their clothes and screaming about the injustice of the whole thing and the inherent evilness of the whole deal. However, since these proposals stem from the left, they great and its sole purpose is to benefit the poor and the desinfranchized...

    What appals me the most is that all this support for Chavez comes from the same people that consider themselves the single owners of the Human Rights. Well I guess only those alligned with the left are worthy of Human Rights, too sad 'cause that beautiful declaration actually is The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    By the way, I consider myself closer to the liberal side of the political spectrum, but more than anything I am a democratic person. And when I hear, as I did Friday, an important politician from Venezuela saying that Chavez believes that "politics is war carried out by different means (reversing Von Klausevitz well known statement about "war being politics carried out by different means") I get scared, 'cause this means that Chavez thinks that politics and democracy are an antagonic system, involving the annihilation of the adversary, when democracy should be a system for consensus and deliberation as Norberto Bobbio and Jürgen Habermas so wisely have stated.

    Nevertheless, I'm somewhat optimistic, Venezuela's universitary students rising their voices, even after being shot, gives me hope for my adoptive country.
    Peace
    Caterina
  • A "Yes" vote would scrap limits on how long Chavez can rule as president and he has said he will stay on for decades if Venezuelans keep voting for him.

    The reforms also would give him control over the central bank and foreign currency reserves bloated by high oil export revenues, reduce the workday to six hours and extend social security benefits to self-employed workers such as street vendors.

    Government worker Yelitza Rodriguez, 37, told Reuters she voted for the referendum as a step toward creating a more equal society, despite her misgivings about indefinite reelection.

    "Most of the reform favors the people," she said.

    And that is exactly the point of this vote... Let the people vote on the parts of this referendum alone and the election changes would never pass...
    "Almost unconsciously he traced with his finger in the dust on the table: 2+2=5" 1984
  • Boy, I've never been happier to be wrong in my life.

    The reform did not pass. With 90% of votes counted the NO won by almost 2%. The Electoral Council said the trend is irreversible!!!!!!!!!!

    Such a great day for Venezuela's democracy. Chavez no longer invincible!
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ebizzie wrote:
    How exactly did this turn to a thread about the US and Georgie boy? The US plays a very small part in this equation that Chavez has developed.

    While Cosmo brings up a very valid point that Venezuela, namely it's vast lower class, has not had the opportunity to cash in on the nation's natural resource of oil. Multi-nationals have been robbing that country blind for decades. So Chavez nationalized the oil industries AFTER giving the companies an opportunity to give a very large chunk of profits to the government for the right to stay in country. The companies denied the offer and Chavez nationalized oil. Socialist? Yes. Necessary? Probably. If there were domestic companies in place capable of pumping the crude then nationalization of the industry would have been questionable, imo, but, as far as I know, there are no Venezuelan private companies which would qualify. The government is now rolling in oil money which has created a great opportunity for Chavez to turn his country around and invest in the people. Has he? No. He's investing in himself and his lifelong desire to be like Castro. This referendum has 69 changes in law rolled into one question. He's counting on the ignorant lower class to give him the power he craves (assuming a "fair" referendum takes place). He has shut down anti-Chavez media outlets, he hangs out with the shadiest characters in the world (Castro, Ahmenijaad, Kim Jong Il, Mugabe, etc.). These characters aren't just shady to the Americans, they are recognized threats to the entire world and looked upon as some of the worst leaders out there, by any nation's standards. Unless you're a total nutjob, these aren't the people you choose to align yourself with if your true interest is to create a Venezuela that the world respects and wants to trade with. The scary part, and the part that the rest of the world needs to understand, is that Chavez's unending power and high oil incomes mean more money being passed between 3 or 4 of the shadiest countries in the world. America is not the only country threatened by the results of tomorrow's referendum.

    Nicely said. Some people on this board will turn anything into an attack on Bush or the US. Trust me there is a hell of a lot that this country, and the Bush administration, has done that is beyond ficked up and they should be taken to task for it. It just seems that people will excuse actions, like Chavez's, simply because the US, or Bush specifically, has been involved in some less than savory activities. Unfortunetly your excellent post will more than likely fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes, because these people live with blinders on.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    mammasan wrote:
    Nicely said. Some people on this board will turn anything into an attack on Bush or the US. Trust me there is a hell of a lot that this country, and the Bush administration, has done that is beyond ficked up and they should be taken to task for it. It just seems that people will excuse actions, like Chavez's, simply because the US, or Bush specifically, has been involved in some less than savory activities. Unfortunetly your excellent post will more than likely fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes, because these people live with blinders on.

    i believe this to be another example of where someone's perceptions are pre-determined ... it's like everyone has divided themselves amongst various dichotomies and those views are set in stone ...

    it's sad really because there are many great opinions here ... but we can't engage in discussions if one already thinks that views are pre-determined ... i think a large part of that is that too many people take comments about america far too personally - and get their backs up when really - they need to just listen and take it for what it really is ...

    chavez is a great topic for this board i believe because it shows opposite policies to another extremist isn't the way to go either ... we have far more common ground amongst members of this board then we have differences - it's a matter of coming to a common understanding of what the facts and realities are ...
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    polaris wrote:
    i believe this to be another example of where someone's perceptions are pre-determined ... it's like everyone has divided themselves amongst various dichotomies and those views are set in stone ...

    it's sad really because there are many great opinions here ... but we can't engage in discussions if one already thinks that views are pre-determined ... i think a large part of that is that too many people take comments about america far too personally - and get their backs up when really - they need to just listen and take it for what it really is ...

    chavez is a great topic for this board i believe because it shows opposite policies to another extremist isn't the way to go either ... we have far more common ground amongst members of this board then we have differences - it's a matter of coming to a common understanding of what the facts and realities are ...

    I agree with you but when one of the first posts in a thread about Chavez's recent actions is about how horrorable the US is, is extremely aggrivating. I enjoy living in the US and will defend the country when it is required. I will also criticize the country when necessary. I'm not one of these uber-patriotic Americans who is going to sit here and defend my country even though their actions where clearly wrong. On the same note it is unfair to blame this country for every single wrong that occurs in the world. I know that the US have intervened in venezuelan affairs. I know that the last coup against Cahavez had US support. I am strongly oppossed to those actions as I feel that we should not meddle in another nations internal affairs, but to blame Chavez's decision on eliminating term limites on the US is utterly ridiculous and just down right stupid. Chavez came to this decision because he is a power hungry dictaror in the making. It has little to nothing to do with the US or our previous unsavory actions, but you will have people on this board turn any act or action into an anti-US rant.

    This could have been a very interesting topic to discuss because as you said Chavez was on of the first modern latin American leaders to try to step out from under US hegemony in the region, but he has gone from being abeckon for other Latin American countries to becoming a dictator, much like Castro.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • ThecureThecure Posts: 814
    810wmb wrote:
    hey yr right

    it's the all of america sucks dick argument

    fuck canada

    why r u saying fuck Canada for. what in reality has Canada done to your country if you don't mind me asking.
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
    - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    Thecure wrote:
    why r u saying fuck Canada for. what in reality has Canada done to your country if you don't mind me asking.

    i don't mind you asking
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    810wmb wrote:
    i don't mind you asking

    Canada has done nothing, he's new and looking for attention. :)

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • ThecureThecure Posts: 814
    810wmb wrote:
    i don't mind you asking

    so r u going to answer the question?
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
    - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    810wmb wrote:
    tax refunds

    The Tax Relief Checks Sent to U.S. Taxpayers in 2001 Are Not Really Refunds
    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/taxadvance.htm

    Tax Cuts Offer Most for Very Rich, Study Says
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html
    810wmb wrote:
    unemployment was lower than with clinton at one point

    And what's the situation now exactly?

    U.S. Unemployment Worsens - Oct 5, 2007
    http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/10/05/us-unemployment-worsens

    810wmb wrote:
    appointed more blacks in high level positions

    Who did?
    810wmb wrote:
    given more to schools for pubic education (that one's screwed)

    Bush’s Plan To Destroy Our Public Schools
    http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Oct2004/rubinsteinpr1004.html

    Bush vetoes education spending bill
    President rejects 5 percent increase in education funding, while approving 9 percent increase in defense spending
    http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/top-news/index.cfm?i=50375&CFID=983978&CFTOKEN=57439733
    810wmb wrote:
    given more to fight aids in africa than anybody

    U.S. Foreign Assistance to Africa: Claims vs. Reality
    http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2005/0627africa_rice.aspx
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    4.7 per cent in oct..pretty respectable...it's been low for awhile

    bush did

    the bill he signed in "no child" was more than he should have..i don't blame him for not increasing it

    what you posted said it was up 56%...what do you want? send them all the money?
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    Thecure wrote:
    so r u going to answer the question?

    on this board and others, the U.S. takes a bashing all the time from canadians...i got tired of it
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • ThecureThecure Posts: 814
    810wmb wrote:
    on this board and others, the U.S. takes a bashing all the time from canadians...i got tired of it

    i can understand that. we here in Canada get alot of crap from the US too. there are many sterotypes from both sides.
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
    - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    810wmb wrote:
    4.7 per cent in oct..pretty respectable...it's been low for awhile

    bush did

    the bill he signed in "no child" was more than he should have..i don't blame him for not increasing it

    what you posted said it was up 56%...what do you want? send them all the money?


    'President Bush has thus far rejected Blair's call to double aid to Africa, as well as the benchmark set by the OECD and signatories to the Monterrey Consensus, which called on developed countries to devote 0.7% of their gross national income to overseas development assistance by 2015....


    ...The Bush Administration should join the UK, France, Italy and Germany and twelve other developed nations and commit to devote up to 0.7% of U.S. gross national income to overseas development assistance by 2015.'
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    Byrnzie wrote:
    'President Bush has thus far rejected Blair's call to double aid to Africa, as well as the benchmark set by the OECD and signatories to the Monterrey Consensus, which called on developed countries to devote 0.7% of their gross national income to overseas development assistance by 2015....


    ...The Bush Administration should join the UK, France, Italy and Germany and twelve other developed nations and commit to devote up to 0.7% of U.S. gross national income to overseas development assistance by 2015.'


    so what - giving is UP 56% - jeezee

    hey, they should do some things they don't either - point is, aids relief is up more than any US prez
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    810wmb wrote:
    so what - giving is UP 56% - jeezee

    hey, they should do some things they don't either - point is, aids relief is up more than any US prez

    The US gov't kills more people every year than AIDS. The least they can do is try to save some lives.
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    Commy wrote:
    The US gov't kills more people every year than AIDS. The least they can do is try to save some lives.

    damn right - take our money while cussing us

    it's our fucking money fuck africa

    everyone calls us asshole and then says we ought to feel guilty about being the most blessed nation on earth

    they can eat me
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    810wmb wrote:
    damn right - take our money while cussing us

    it's our fucking money fuck africa

    everyone calls us asshole and then says we ought to feel guilty about being the most blessed nation on earth

    they can eat me

    Who says you're the most blessed nation on Earth?
    I can think of a ton of places on this Earth where I'd rather live.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or Canada, I'd choose Canada.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or Tahiti, I'd choose Tahiti.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or France, I'd choose France.
    I could go on all day.

    And I don't hate America, it's just not all it's made out to be.
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Who says you're the most blessed nation on Earth?
    I can think of a ton of places on this Earth where I'd rather live.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or Canada, I'd choose Canada.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or Tahiti, I'd choose Tahiti.
    If I had a choice of living in the U.S or France, I'd choose France.
    I could go on all day.

    And I don't hate America, it's just not all it's made out to be.

    i think that's swell

    call freakin tahiti for some money
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    810wmb wrote:
    i think that's swell

    call freakin tahiti for some money

    Tahiti doesn't use up a quarter of the worlds resources, and cause 25% of the worlds pollution.

    http://atlas.aaas.org/index.php?part=2

    The US uses roughly one-fourth of all energy resources (round up to 100 QBTU), with roughly 5% of the world population (300 mil out of 6 bil). To bring the rest of the world to this level of energy consumption you would need 95/5* 100 = 1900 QBTU yearly, roughly four times the present production.

    I.e, It would take 4 more Earths for the rest of the world to have a standard of living equivalent to the USA.

    The U.S is also responsible for 25% of the worlds pollution.

    Therefore, you owe the rest of the world a sizable debt.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Therefore, you owe the rest of the world a sizable debt.

    I don't owe you anything. You have no claim on me. That is the guilt trip you attempt to lay on us. Find some other sucker.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
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