Chavez!!! Penns Buddy??

polaris

NCfan wrote:

And easily defended. I agree that our two party political system needs an overhaul, but that is just one aspect of our government beauracracy and does not tell the whole story of American society in general.

If America isn't the world's beacon of democracy, then surely one does not exist.

if america is so great - why is it not even in the top 10 of best places to live nor anywhere near the top in human development indexes?

the last two elections were rigged - even if you choose to not believe that - the anomalies associated with each election is proof in the democratic failures ... no country that is a beacon of democracy would have the election failings the US has had recently ...

polaris

NCfan wrote:

Wow, now there is a narrow view. Let's look at our cheif economic policy with regards to our neighbors, NAFTA.

That economic policy has been mostly hostile towards American workers, and a complete failure in its goals. It has been a policy that has benefited our neighbors and hurt our own economy.

US companies have outsourced their operations over the border into Canada and Mexico, costing tens of thousands of American jobs. It has nearly ruined our fruit and vegetable farmers among other industries.

With no tariffs, how can an American farmer compete with produce from Mexico that is grown with cheap labor, leanient labor laws/no inforcement, cheap pesticides that are outlawed by the US EPA, taken to market by a truck that does not meet any sort of government mandated saftey inspection and whose driver has no license? Not to mention the rampant corruption that exist in business down there, that allows Mexican companies to cut even more corners to maximize their profit margins.

It's cheaper to business in Mexico, and American companies have/are investing there in droves!

Besides, it is HARDLY American economic policies that are oppressing neighboring economies. There are a multitude of reasons that Mexio and other countries are not progressing.

the only people that have benefited from NAFTA are the big multinationals and the wealthy ... hence their push for more globalization ... there was some short-term benefit to mexico but long-term it has definitely not paid off

josevolution

TheVoiceInside wrote:

So are you saying that if you were from Chile your life wouldnt be worth shit.

Amazing. By the way, You should check out how Chile is doing. Looks like a nice place to live in.

i am from CHILE and if my parents didn't leave to come here i would probably be working for a lot less than what i make here in this country or dead along with the thousands of dissidents that got killed by the PINOCHET REGIME ,and i know that the coup was backed by the USA but still glad to be here rather than there ....

polaris

mammasan wrote:

Hard to vote him our if he never holds another lection.

Also please tell me how a thread about Chavez consolidating power all of a sudden becomes a thread on raging on America. I know my country has problems. I know my government is far from perfect and that we have in the past participated and carried out some pretty shaddy acts. There are a lot of flaws to this country but not every problem the world has is the fault of the US. Chavez is an asshole who id modeling himself after Castro, great role model to have. Anyone who things that this man is anything but a power hungry disctator is dillusional. Bush may be an asshole and a complete shithead but he pales in comparison to Chavez.

well ... one of the arguments against chavez was that he said bush was evil ... and so on ...

i am a "socialist" whatever that means ... but i don't agree with everything chavez has done ... but bush is by far the single biggest fucker in this world ... say what you will about chavez but if you look at how many lives have been affected by this war-mongering president of the US - it doesn't even come close ... and that's just war ... america (like it or not) has significant influence on global policy and there are consequences ... if you are gonna stick your nose everywhere - you have to be able to accept the consequences ...

Nevermind

NCfan wrote:

Given Chavez's history, why would anybody give him the benefit of the doubt? He's a whack job who has oil money to consolidate power, intimidate political rivals and the press, crush dissent, subsidize and therefore blind the lower classes, bribe the elite and pay off anyone else who knows better. He engages in serial propaganda, repeatedly telling his citizens to prepare for an impending American invasion. His idol is Castro for god's sake. And after his UN speech in which he called Bush the devil... are you kidding? What a freak! I feel sorry for the people of Venezuela.

Kind of sounds like someone familiar. Thats George Bush's life story. All you have to do is switch American invasion with terrorist invasion. George Bush is the devil. Along with his nazi family.

810wmb

polaris wrote:

if america is so great - why is it not even in the top 10 of best places to live nor anywhere near the top in human development indexes?

the last two elections were rigged - even if you choose to not believe that - the anomalies associated with each election is proof in the democratic failures ... no country that is a beacon of democracy would have the election failings the US has had recently ...

wait....


do you hear it?????










it's........







the......





BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!!!!!!!!!

810wmb

polaris wrote:

well ... one of the arguments against chavez was that he said bush was evil ... and so on ...

i am a "socialist" whatever that means ... but i don't agree with everything chavez has done ... but bush is by far the single biggest fucker in this world ... say what you will about chavez but if you look at how many lives have been affected by this war-mongering president of the US - it doesn't even come close ... and that's just war ... america (like it or not) has significant influence on global policy and there are consequences ... if you are gonna stick your nose everywhere - you have to be able to accept the consequences ...

let's see, the ego driven, commie ass, bigheaded, tyrant, bitch chavez, wishes he could affect the world as much as bush has!!!!

it's penis envy with him...he hates the fact bush has the POWER!

and he's shit


it's true about the consequences - he keeps fucking around he'll pay the price

Commy

810wmb wrote:

let's see, the ego driven, commie ass, bigheaded, tyrant, bitch chavez, wishes he could affect the world as much as bush has!!!!

it's penis envy with him...he hates the fact bush has the POWER!

and he's shit


it's true about the consequences - he keeps fucking around he'll pay the price

Chavez inherited a country so fucked up he has to take steps like this just to reverse the status quo. I dont' agree with it for the most part but it has to be done. This country has seen its natural resources benefitting foreign companies for most of its modern existence-its gonna take more than gov't policy to reverse that.

What I dont' get is how conservatives cry for less handouts, while their gov't gives more. They cry for more freedom, while their representatives take it away. They cry for less gov't as their leaders make more.

But get to the point. A country is democratic insofar as its people have a meaningful say in the democratic process..

IE. if a country is democratic the more gov't it has the more freedom the people have...because its the people who contriol their gov't-not the other way around.

Now they see a society that has potential..that could possibly be the preferential option for the poor that so many US officials have spent years trying to destroy. NOw there is hope for millions of people...But they're trying to tear it down any way they can. ANY tiny piece of worthless news that shows Chavez in a negative light is gonna be aired...foget the steps he has taken to help the country-he is only shown in a negative light-and their are so many goddamn sheep in this country it gets eaten u p.

810wmb

Commy wrote:

Chavez inherited a country so fucked up he has to take steps like this just to reverse the status quo. I dont' agree with it for the most part but it has to be done. This country has seen its natural resources benefitting foreign companies for most of its modern existence-its gonna take more than gov't policy to reverse that.

What I dont' get is how conservatives cry for less handouts, while their gov't gives more. They cry for more freedom, while their representatives take it away. They cry for less gov't as their leaders make more.

But get to the point. A country is democratic insofar as its people have a meaningful say in the democratic process..

IE. if a country is democratic the more gov't it has the more freedom the people have...because its the people who contriol their gov't-not the other way around.

Now they see a society that has potential..that could possibly be the preferential option for the poor that so many US officials have spent years trying to destroy. NOw there is hope for millions of people...But they're trying to tear it down any way they can. ANY tiny piece of worthless news that shows Chavez in a negative light is gonna be aired...foget the steps he has taken to help the country-he is only shown in a negative light-and their are so many goddamn sheep in this country it gets eaten u p.

well, this is america and he hates us...so fuck him

Commy

810wmb wrote:

well, this is america and he hates us...so fuck him

I dont' know what that means.

bootlegger10

Byrnzie wrote:

No. If people are dumb enough to vote for Bush then that's their problem.

Fuck that. You would be all over this board preaching about how Bush is trying to be King and trample all over the Constitution. We don't need your bullshit agenda.

810wmb

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071130/D8T89LMG1.html

here he is! one of the reasons he wants it - "that a victory in Sunday's referendum would be a defeat for his enemies in Washington"

oh yeah, it could keep him in power until he's 95..

fuck this waterhead

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

And after his UN speech in which he called Bush the devil... are you kidding? What a freak! I feel sorry for the people of Venezuela.

God forbid anyone criticise George Bush! Chavez must obviously be a whackjob!

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

Venezuala is not a true democracy, and it's a bit misguiding to say that the people are free to vote him out of power if they want.

A true democratic governement/society has an un-fettered press, transparent government, free-market economy, independent judicial system, etc...

Chavez has consolidated his power in a way that he controls most of these institutions and is attempting to control key industries/businesses/companies. And the ones he doesn't either own or influence, he harrasses.

It's painfully clear that he is a committed socialist, and throughout history, regimes such as his have been historically hard to "bring down" or vote out of power.

Previously, the press there was controlled by the rich, and the middle classes. Chavez needed to snatch it out of their hands in order to prevent them from fermenting a coup against him. Seems reasonable to me. Big changes require big actions. Obviously a more than a few people were gonna be upset. Rich kidse don't like having their toys taken away from them. They start crying and making threats.

810wmb

Byrnzie wrote:

Previously, the press there was controlled by the rich, and the middle classes. Chavez needed to snatch it out of their hands in order to prevent them from fermenting a coup against him. Seems reasonable to me. Big changes require big actions. Obviously a more than a few people were gonna be upset. Rich kidse don't like having their toys taken away from them. They start crying and making threats.

crap dude, bush farts wrong, it's hell to pay..

this commie waterhead does anything, you are all for it

Byrnzie

810wmb wrote:

crap dude, bush farts wrong, it's hell to pay..

this commie waterhead does anything, you are all for it

Name me one positive thing Bush has done for the American people.

810wmb

Byrnzie wrote:

Name me one positive thing Bush has done for the American people.

tax refunds, unemployment was lower than with clinton at one point, appointed more blacks in high level positions, given more to schools for pubic education (that one's screwed) given more to fight aids in africa than anybody..

SundaySilence

NCfan wrote:

Wow, now there is a narrow view. Let's look at our cheif economic policy with regards to our neighbors, NAFTA.

That economic policy has been mostly hostile towards American workers, and a complete failure in its goals. It has been a policy that has benefited our neighbors and hurt our own economy.

US companies have outsourced their operations over the border into Canada and Mexico, costing tens of thousands of American jobs. It has nearly ruined our fruit and vegetable farmers among other industries.

With no tariffs, how can an American farmer compete with produce from Mexico that is grown with cheap labor, leanient labor laws/no inforcement, cheap pesticides that are outlawed by the US EPA, taken to market by a truck that does not meet any sort of government mandated saftey inspection and whose driver has no license? Not to mention the rampant corruption that exist in business down there, that allows Mexican companies to cut even more corners to maximize their profit margins.

It's cheaper to business in Mexico, and American companies have/are investing there in droves!

Besides, it is HARDLY American economic policies that are oppressing neighboring economies. There are a multitude of reasons that Mexio and other countries are not progressing.

American corporate agriculture is heavily subsidized and NAFTA has allowed subsidized American corn to flood the Mexican market putting Mexican farmers out of work leading to a result of increased attempts at illegal immigration to work on american farms.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/31/MNGIVK8BHP1.DTL

810wmb

NCfan wrote:

Wow, now there is a narrow view. Let's look at our cheif economic policy with regards to our neighbors, NAFTA.

That economic policy has been mostly hostile towards American workers, and a complete failure in its goals. It has been a policy that has benefited our neighbors and hurt our own economy.

US companies have outsourced their operations over the border into Canada and Mexico, costing tens of thousands of American jobs. It has nearly ruined our fruit and vegetable farmers among other industries.

With no tariffs, how can an American farmer compete with produce from Mexico that is grown with cheap labor, leanient labor laws/no inforcement, cheap pesticides that are outlawed by the US EPA, taken to market by a truck that does not meet any sort of government mandated saftey inspection and whose driver has no license? Not to mention the rampant corruption that exist in business down there, that allows Mexican companies to cut even more corners to maximize their profit margins.

It's cheaper to business in Mexico, and American companies have/are investing there in droves!

Besides, it is HARDLY American economic policies that are oppressing neighboring economies. There are a multitude of reasons that Mexio and other countries are not progressing.

another clinton victory

RolandTD20Kdrummer

http://media.funlol.com/content/zeke.jpg