Okay, well I'm glad to know that we are on the same page with concern to whose fault this whole mess is.
So now the larger question, it's easy to condem Israel, but its hard to offer real, viable alternative solutions.
What do YOU think israel should do? These terrorist hide and operate among civilians on purpose for protection. if they didn't they would have been wiped out a long time ago. Hamas and Hezbollah want to destroy Israel, and in response, Israel wants to destroy them. How can one accomplish the other without civillian casualties? Should this just go on forever?
Hamas and Hezbollah were born out of the need to, one, defend Palestinians from Israeli violence in Gaza, and, two, the Lebanon.
Which came first, Israel or these groups?
Who says they want Israel destroyed? And if they did, why is it so against your nature to accept that? A history lesson, how many Jews were living in what is now Israel at the end of the 19th century?
Answer, 50,000. Yes, just 50,000. Now its what, 7 million? Wow, either there's been some serious shagging oing on, or there HAS BEEN A MASS MIGRATION AND DISPLACEMENT OF THE INDIGENOUS PALESTINIAN / ARAB COMMUNITY!
Once Israel and the International comunity (the US, UK via the UN) broke the agreements of the creation of a separate Palestinian state, and continue to defy all UN resolutions against the Palestinians and repeated Israeli violence, the Palestinians had no choice but to take up arms against those that oppress them. Until that oppression stops, there will be no peace.
All this hoo ha about two fucking soldiers and Israel still ocuupies lands taken in 1967 !
Give back the Occupied Territories, back to 1947 borders, allow the Palestinians to have their own state, not the concentration camp known as Gaza, and see how the dust settles. If the activity continues then yes, houston, we have a problem.
And stilings, fuck off back to the radical, zionist / neo con handjob fest you came from. How dare you call me racist or anti-semite just because I attack the abuse of an entire peoples by one nation state?
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
It is 100% true... but at the same time that doesn't mean the the israeli army can go around bombing the shit out of everything, killing whoever happens to get in the way (which most of the time is innocent people).
I don't think anyone would disagree with that either.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Hamas and Hezbollah were born out of the need to, one, defend Palestinians from Israeli violence in Gaza, and, two, the Lebanon.
Which came first, Israel or these groups?
Who says they want Israel destroyed? And if they did, why is it so against your nature to accept that? A history lesson, how many Jews were living in what is now Israel at the end of the 19th century?
Answer, 50,000. Yes, just 50,000. Now its what, 7 million? Wow, either there's been some serious shagging oing on, or there HAS BEEN A MASS MIGRATION AND DISPLACEMENT OF THE INDIGENOUS PALESTINIAN / ARAB COMMUNITY!
Once Israel and the International comunity (the US, UK via the UN) broke the agreements of the creation of a separate Palestinian state, and continue to defy all UN resolutions against the Palestinians and repeated Israeli violence, the Palestinians had no choice but to take up arms against those that oppress them. Until that oppression stops, there will be no peace.
All this hoo ha about two fucking soldiers and Israel still ocuupies lands taken in 1967 !
Give back the Occupied Territories, back to 1947 borders, allow the Palestinians to have their own state, not the concentration camp known as Gaza, and see how the dust settles. If the activity continues then yes, houston, we have a problem.
And stilings, fuck off back to the radical, zionist / neo con handjob fest you came from. How dare you call me racist or anti-semite just because I attack the abuse of an entire peoples by one nation state?
But wait a minute. Wasn't there a war in 1947? Was Israel not attacked again in 1967? Why attack Israel in the first place before they occupied any of that land? All of the people fighting are indegenous peoples to that region Arabs, Jews what have you, there's absolutely no reason why they can't live toegther peacefully.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Why exactly did Hezbollah launch rockets into Israel in the first place?
All of this would stop, if Hezbollah and Hamas and whoever would stop killing people.
Everything in this matter is directly the fault of Hezbollah. If they stop, if Hamas stops, so does the violence.
Under the pretext of forcing the release of a single soldier "kidnapped by terrorists" (or, if you prefer, "captured by the resistance"), Israel has done the following: seized members of a democratically elected government; bombed its interior ministry, the prime minister's offices, and a school; threatened another sovereign state (Syria) with a menacing overflight; dropped leaflets from the air, warning of harm to the civilian population if it does not "follow all orders of the IDF" (Israel Defense Forces); loosed nocturnal "sound bombs" under orders from the Israeli prime minister to "make sure no one sleeps at night in Gaza"; fired missiles into residential areas, killing children; and demolished a power station that was the sole generator of electricity and running water for hundreds of thousands of Gazans.
Hezbollah claims their attack was designed to help the Palestinians negotiate a prisoner release. But the consequences are already extraordinarily dangerous, for Lebanese civilians as well as for Palestinians, and potentially for the region as a whole. In response to the capture of the soldiers, Israel again showed its willingness to target civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure. Israeli warplanes attacked two bridges over the Litani River deep in southern Lebanon, and bombed the airport out of commission. That was followed by Israel's land and sea incursion with tanks, gunboats and planes across the Lebanese border. Israel destroyed the home of Hezbollah leader Ibrahim Nasrullah, who answered with a call for "open warfare." By July 18, over 200 Lebanese civilians have been killed, and more than 200 injured; 12 Israelis have been killed.
I If Hezbollah and Hamas would quit trying to kill Jews and live in peace with them, then everybody could find a way to live in peace. Why is that so wrong to believe?
And stilings, fuck off back to the radical, zionist / neo con handjob fest you came from. How dare you call me racist or anti-semite just because I attack the abuse of an entire peoples by one nation state?
Hamas and Hezbollah were born out of the need to, one, defend Palestinians from Israeli violence in Gaza, and, two, the Lebanon.
Which came first, Israel or these groups?
Who says they want Israel destroyed? And if they did, why is it so against your nature to accept that? A history lesson, how many Jews were living in what is now Israel at the end of the 19th century?
Answer, 50,000. Yes, just 50,000. Now its what, 7 million? Wow, either there's been some serious shagging oing on, or there HAS BEEN A MASS MIGRATION AND DISPLACEMENT OF THE INDIGENOUS PALESTINIAN / ARAB COMMUNITY!
Once Israel and the International comunity (the US, UK via the UN) broke the agreements of the creation of a separate Palestinian state, and continue to defy all UN resolutions against the Palestinians and repeated Israeli violence, the Palestinians had no choice but to take up arms against those that oppress them. Until that oppression stops, there will be no peace.
All this hoo ha about two fucking soldiers and Israel still ocuupies lands taken in 1967 !
Give back the Occupied Territories, back to 1947 borders, allow the Palestinians to have their own state, not the concentration camp known as Gaza, and see how the dust settles. If the activity continues then yes, houston, we have a problem.
And stilings, fuck off back to the radical, zionist / neo con handjob fest you came from. How dare you call me racist or anti-semite just because I attack the abuse of an entire peoples by one nation state?
You've got some issues... but I can understand why you see the world the way you do.
Not to hijack this thread, but since the numbers are so important while we are focusing on the 200-some people who've died in the past week in the Isreali conflict, 150 people have died in Iraq in the past 3 days alone... and thats a war that actually involves us. Why all the attention on Isreal?.. oh, yeah. The media. :rolleyes:
You've got some issues... but I can understand why you see the world the way you do.
1) Yes I have; the actions of the Israeli government.
2) Fuck off, you understand nothing.
Say what you mean, dont insinuate. Coward.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Not to hijack this thread, but since the numbers are so important while we are focusing on the 200-some people who've died in the past week in the Isreali conflict, 150 people have died in Iraq in the past 3 days alone... and thats a war that actually involves us. Why all the attention on Isreal?.. oh, yeah. The media. :rolleyes:
yeah you know, we're all sheep and all that...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Both Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for instigating Israel during this current round of killing. While Israel does have the right to defend itself it has definetly crossed the line with it's attacks on civilian targets. Regardless of weither Hezbollah operates within Lebanon's borders it does so without the consent or aid of the Lebanese government or people. As I have stated before, should we bomb civilian targets in Islamabad or Karachi if Al Qaida hits us again simply because they have operations within Pakistan's borders. Israel has asked the Lebanese government to mobilize it's military to help route out Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon but then goes on to bomb Lebanes military installments and positions. The Lebanese military has yet to fire a single shot in retaliation. The Lebanese government and people are not Israel's enemy yet Israel is treating them like one. The majority government in Lebanon and the military have denounced Hezbollah's actions but yet they continue to be bombed. While some of you here are prefectly content with this I see Israel actions to be on par with that of Hamas and Hezbollah. While you may say it's unfair, Israel is to be held to a higher standard. Hamas, Hezbollah, and similiar organizations are a gang of vile murderous thugs who have no respect for human life. Israel is and should always be above that mentality. So while Hezbollah actions are deplorable it is far worse when a state decides to take the same course of action. The only good I can see coming out of this is that Arabs/Muslims will see that these organizations do not truely have the best interest of the greater Arab/Muslim community at heart but only a self serving agenda. And secondly that countries like the US wil not turn a blind eye when an allie like Israel decided to pursue less than civil means to defending itself. Lastly we can learn from past mistakes are work harder to prevent senseless killing like what is occuring as we speak.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Maybe I am wrong, but I think the one point that is often overlooked in these threads is that Isreal does not try to, and goes out of its way not to, kill the innocent. Hezbollah has its rockets launch pads in heavily populated areas. They use their own as shields. Its fucked up. I mentioned it before and I will again, Isreal and the U.S. put their own soldiers in great harm by doing everything they possibly can to not hurt civilians.
Hezbollah on the other hand goes out of their way to intentionally kill as many civillians as possible. They are lobbing rockets into Israel with the intent to hit anything.
That said, I understand all the points of view in here. I rack my simple mind every day for some sort of answer. Relegion is usually the monkey wrench.
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for instigating Israel during this current round of killing. While Israel does have the right to defend itself it has definetly crossed the line with it's attacks on civilian targets. Regardless of weither Hezbollah operates within Lebanon's borders it does so without the consent or aid of the Lebanese government or people. As I have stated before, should we bomb civilian targets in Islamabad or Karachi if Al Qaida hits us again simply because they have operations within Pakistan's borders. Israel has asked the Lebanese government to mobilize it's military to help route out Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon but then goes on to bomb Lebanes military installments and positions. The Lebanese military has yet to fire a single shot in retaliation. The Lebanese government and people are not Israel's enemy yet Israel is treating them like one. The majority government in Lebanon and the military have denounced Hezbollah's actions but yet they continue to be bombed. While some of you here are prefectly content with this I see Israel actions to be on par with that of Hamas and Hezbollah. While you may say it's unfair, Israel is to be held to a higher standard. Hamas, Hezbollah, and similiar organizations are a gang of vile murderous thugs who have no respect for human life. Israel is and should always be above that mentality. So while Hezbollah actions are deplorable it is far worse when a state decides to take the same course of action. The only good I can see coming out of this is that Arabs/Muslims will see that these organizations do not truely have the best interest of the greater Arab/Muslim community at heart but only a self serving agenda. And secondly that countries like the US wil not turn a blind eye when an allie like Israel decided to pursue less than civil means to defending itself. Lastly we can learn from past mistakes are work harder to prevent senseless killing like what is occuring as we speak.
I think we're on the same page. Good post. Discresion would not undermine at all Israel's ability to defend itself. They are going to be held to a higher standard.
Attacking the lebanese military and Beiruit is going way, way overboard, no reason to start a fight where there is none, even if 3 or 4 of the head guys from Hezbollah do live in Beiruit. It's just not a good idea, neither was invading Iraq.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for instigating Israel during this current round of killing. While Israel does have the right to defend itself it has definetly crossed the line with it's attacks on civilian targets. Regardless of weither Hezbollah operates within Lebanon's borders it does so without the consent or aid of the Lebanese government or people. As I have stated before, should we bomb civilian targets in Islamabad or Karachi if Al Qaida hits us again simply because they have operations within Pakistan's borders. Israel has asked the Lebanese government to mobilize it's military to help route out Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon but then goes on to bomb Lebanes military installments and positions. The Lebanese military has yet to fire a single shot in retaliation. The Lebanese government and people are not Israel's enemy yet Israel is treating them like one. The majority government in Lebanon and the military have denounced Hezbollah's actions but yet they continue to be bombed. While some of you here are prefectly content with this I see Israel actions to be on par with that of Hamas and Hezbollah. While you may say it's unfair, Israel is to be held to a higher standard. Hamas, Hezbollah, and similiar organizations are a gang of vile murderous thugs who have no respect for human life. Israel is and should always be above that mentality. So while Hezbollah actions are deplorable it is far worse when a state decides to take the same course of action. The only good I can see coming out of this is that Arabs/Muslims will see that these organizations do not truely have the best interest of the greater Arab/Muslim community at heart but only a self serving agenda. And secondly that countries like the US wil not turn a blind eye when an allie like Israel decided to pursue less than civil means to defending itself. Lastly we can learn from past mistakes are work harder to prevent senseless killing like what is occuring as we speak.
Good post, i wonder what it will take for the Lebanese army to answer while their soldiers are being killed by Israel for no reason...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I think we're on the same page. Good post. Discresion would not undermine at all Israel's ability to defend itself. They are going to be held to a higher standard.
Attacking the lebanese military and Beiruit is going way, way overboard.
As they should be and that doesn't mean that we don't hold Hezbollah or Hamas responsible we just believe that a state should not be resorting to the same tactics as terrorists.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Good post, i wonder what it will take for the Lebanese army to answer while their soldiers are being killed by Israel for no reason...
I don't think the Lebanese military will retaliate. They know that they are out-manned and out-gunned and would fair much better by just digging in and ducking for cover. They are probably relying on the international community intefering and putting a stop to this, which should have happened by now.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Maybe I am wrong, but I think the one point that is often overlooked in these threads is that Isreal does not try to, and goes out of its way not to, kill the innocent. Hezbollah has its rockets launch pads in heavily populated areas. They use their own as shields. Its fucked up. I mentioned it before and I will again, Isreal and the U.S. put their own soldiers in great harm by doing everything they possibly can to not hurt civilians.
I wish it was as clear-cut as that. Certainly Isreal does show some measure of restraint. Considering the military might of that nation, the very continued existence of the surrounding populations demonstrate that fact.
However, some measure of restraint cannot make up for an opposite measure of aggression. Israel uses strong arm tactics that kill thousands. Those acts are not justified simply because those same strong arm tactics taken to a greater degree could kill millions. Furthermore, these acts are typically quite disproportionate to the aggression they are in response to. To invade a nation because of the acts of a few within that nation and kill hundreds in the process of retreiving two men is not a just action. Israel should recognize by now that fear tactics are not a path to long term peace.
Hezbollah on the other hand goes out of their way to intentionally kill as many civillians as possible. They are lobbing rockets into Israel with the intent to hit anything.
This is true. And no amount of aggression on the part of the IDF justifies the random lobbing of missles into markets and civilian targets.
That said, I understand all the points of view in here. I rack my simple mind every day for some sort of answer. Relegion is usually the monkey wrench.
There is only one answer to the unreasonable: reason.
There is only one answer to the illogical: logic.
There is only one answer to death: life.
The answers you seek are there. However, they are not found on an IDF tank or an Hezbollah rocket. The aggression on both sides is far beyond reason, logic and life.
The answers are found in the men and women who simply wish to live their own lives regardless of the existence of other people in their environment. The Palestinians and Israelis who care not about the deaths of others but only the lives of themselves hold the keys to peace.
I don't think the Lebanese military will retaliate. They know that they are out-manned and out-gunned and would fair much better by just digging in and ducking for cover. They are probably relying on the international community intefering and putting a stop to this, which should have happened by now.
and you know what, i'm under the impression that this attitude is exactly why Hezbollah are so popular and have more power than the Lebanese army. People dying are seeking for help, if this help come from the Hezbollah, they'll support the Hezbollah.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Both Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for instigating Israel during this current round of killing. While Israel does have the right to defend itself it has definetly crossed the line with it's attacks on civilian targets. Regardless of weither Hezbollah operates within Lebanon's borders it does so without the consent or aid of the Lebanese government or people. As I have stated before, should we bomb civilian targets in Islamabad or Karachi if Al Qaida hits us again simply because they have operations within Pakistan's borders. Israel has asked the Lebanese government to mobilize it's military to help route out Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon but then goes on to bomb Lebanes military installments and positions. The Lebanese military has yet to fire a single shot in retaliation. The Lebanese government and people are not Israel's enemy yet Israel is treating them like one. The majority government in Lebanon and the military have denounced Hezbollah's actions but yet they continue to be bombed. While some of you here are prefectly content with this I see Israel actions to be on par with that of Hamas and Hezbollah. While you may say it's unfair, Israel is to be held to a higher standard. Hamas, Hezbollah, and similiar organizations are a gang of vile murderous thugs who have no respect for human life. Israel is and should always be above that mentality. So while Hezbollah actions are deplorable it is far worse when a state decides to take the same course of action. The only good I can see coming out of this is that Arabs/Muslims will see that these organizations do not truely have the best interest of the greater Arab/Muslim community at heart but only a self serving agenda. And secondly that countries like the US wil not turn a blind eye when an allie like Israel decided to pursue less than civil means to defending itself. Lastly we can learn from past mistakes are work harder to prevent senseless killing like what is occuring as we speak.
Ill try updatre as I go along. All help and or clarification welcomed.
As of 17th July 2006, the casualties are as follows.
Israeli dead - 24 (including 12 civillians)
Lebanese dead - 204 (190 civilians)
This is what the international community calls 'balanced', and 'restrained'.
* Updated 18th July to include figures from Gaza, the forgotten theatre of operations.
89 Palestinians dead since 25 June 2006 (44 civilians including 19 children, 3 women, and 3 handicapped.
300 Palestinians have been injured, half of them unarmed civilians.
2 Israelis soldiers dead. One Israeli Solider kidnapped, missing, being held in Gaza.
Once again: civilians are MORE than just numbers. I don't even understand the plain idea of "death statistics". In fact, it makes me sick to my stomech. Oh yeah, excuse us for having a shelter and not being killed, please forgive most of northeren Israel's people for running away & leaving their homes behind, and the ones like me who stayed and got missed by the missiles only cause of luck. Really, sorry for not being dead and therfore contradicting your price-less conclusions from a stupid statistics.
Once again: civilians are MORE than just numbers. I don't even understand the plain idea of "death statistics". In fact, it makes me sick to my stomech. Oh yeah, excuse us for having a shelter and not being killed, please forgive most of northeren Israel's people for running away & leaving their homes behind, and the ones like me who stayed and got missed by the missiles only cause of luck. Really, sorry for not being dead and therfore contradicting your price-less conclusions from a stupid statistics.
Once again: civilians are MORE than just numbers. I don't even understand the plain idea of "death statistics". In fact, it makes me sick to my stomech. Oh yeah, excuse us for having a shelter and not being killed, please forgive most of northeren Israel's people for running away & leaving their homes behind, and the ones like me who stayed and got missed by the missiles only cause of luck. Really, sorry for not being dead and therfore contradicting your price-less conclusions from a stupid statistics.
More than just numbers eh? I wonder, would you be saying that if it was 300 dead Israelis to just 15 dead Lebanese?
Double standards methinks, and illustrates clearly your feelings towards your Palestinian and Lebanese fellow human beings.
Numbers are numbers, and cannot be manipulated no matter how hard you try.
* Latest 'numbers' updated on page 1...
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
More than just numbers eh? I wonder, would you be saying that if it was 300 dead Israelis to just 15 dead Lebanese?
Double standards methinks, and illustrates clearly your feelings towards your Palestinian and Lebanese fellow human beings.
Numbers are numbers, and cannot be manipulated no matter how hard you try.
* Latest 'numbers' updated on page 1...
And personally, I think you could show someone in shiraz's position a little more respect, even if you don't agree with all his statements. If indeed there's a double standard here, it probably stems from him actually being in the line of fire. I think its forgiveable, at least at this point in time.
and you know what, i'm under the impression that this attitude is exactly why Hezbollah are so popular and have more power than the Lebanese army. People dying are seeking for help, if this help come from the Hezbollah, they'll support the Hezbollah.
Based on everything I've heard, Hezbollah does not help the average Lebanese, anymore than a tick helps the animal whose body it hides on. Hezbollah isn't protecting Lebanese who aren't members of Hezbollah .... Its firing rockets at Israel to kill Isrealis, something it does no matter what happens in Lebanon proper.
Based on everything I've heard, Hezbollah does not help the average Lebanese, anymore than a tick helps the animal whose body it hides on. Hezbollah isn't protecting Lebanese who aren't members of Hezbollah .... Its firing rockets at Israel to kill Isrealis, something it does no matter what happens in Lebanon proper.
A people need a way to defend themselves...to discourage an invasion or to remove an occupying force-which is basically what Israel is doing in Lebanon right now, invading. In the 80's it wasn't until many attacks from groups like Hamas and Hezbollah that Israel pulled out-otherwise they'd still have control of the area.
Although Hezbollah and Hamas shouldn't be put in the same category-Hezbollah indiscriminiately retaliates-targets civilians and so on- while Hamas has a strict policy of miltary targets only.
Its a terrible thing, war-and innocent people die. That's why Israel shouldn't be getting $2 billion from the US every year in military aid-they keep starting shit like this.
More than just numbers eh? I wonder, would you be saying that if it was 300 dead Israelis to just 15 dead Lebanese?
Double standards methinks, and illustrates clearly your feelings towards your Palestinian and Lebanese fellow human beings.
Numbers are numbers, and cannot be manipulated no matter how hard you try.
* Latest 'numbers' updated on page 1...
It's funny that you are calling yourself a liberal or a peace activist. So far you are the one who is full with so much hate around here, dealing with death comparison in such a blindness way. You are actually nothing more than a pathetic war activist. Nothing more.
You can keep talking whatever you want, I'm not gonna bother responding to a person like you - you're not worth it.
A people need a way to defend themselves...to discourage an invasion or to remove an occupying force-which is basically what Israel is doing in Lebanon right now, invading. In the 80's it wasn't until many attacks from groups like Hamas and Hezbollah that Israel pulled out-otherwise they'd still have control of the area.
Although Hezbollah and Hamas shouldn't be put in the same category-Hezbollah indiscriminiately retaliates-targets civilians and so on- while Hamas has a strict policy of miltary targets only.
Its a terrible thing, war-and innocent people die. That's why Israel shouldn't be getting $2 billion from the US every year in military aid-they keep starting shit like this.
Exactly. Hezbollah was launched to fight the Israeli occupation. All of these militant groups are fighting occupation.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Hamas and Hezbollah were born out of the need to, one, defend Palestinians from Israeli violence in Gaza, and, two, the Lebanon.
Which came first, Israel or these groups?
Who says they want Israel destroyed? And if they did, why is it so against your nature to accept that? A history lesson, how many Jews were living in what is now Israel at the end of the 19th century?
Answer, 50,000. Yes, just 50,000. Now its what, 7 million? Wow, either there's been some serious shagging oing on, or there HAS BEEN A MASS MIGRATION AND DISPLACEMENT OF THE INDIGENOUS PALESTINIAN / ARAB COMMUNITY!
Once Israel and the International comunity (the US, UK via the UN) broke the agreements of the creation of a separate Palestinian state, and continue to defy all UN resolutions against the Palestinians and repeated Israeli violence, the Palestinians had no choice but to take up arms against those that oppress them. Until that oppression stops, there will be no peace.
All this hoo ha about two fucking soldiers and Israel still ocuupies lands taken in 1967 !
Give back the Occupied Territories, back to 1947 borders, allow the Palestinians to have their own state, not the concentration camp known as Gaza, and see how the dust settles. If the activity continues then yes, houston, we have a problem.
And stilings, fuck off back to the radical, zionist / neo con handjob fest you came from. How dare you call me racist or anti-semite just because I attack the abuse of an entire peoples by one nation state?
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
I don't think anyone would disagree with that either.
But wait a minute. Wasn't there a war in 1947? Was Israel not attacked again in 1967? Why attack Israel in the first place before they occupied any of that land? All of the people fighting are indegenous peoples to that region Arabs, Jews what have you, there's absolutely no reason why they can't live toegther peacefully.
Under the pretext of forcing the release of a single soldier "kidnapped by terrorists" (or, if you prefer, "captured by the resistance"), Israel has done the following: seized members of a democratically elected government; bombed its interior ministry, the prime minister's offices, and a school; threatened another sovereign state (Syria) with a menacing overflight; dropped leaflets from the air, warning of harm to the civilian population if it does not "follow all orders of the IDF" (Israel Defense Forces); loosed nocturnal "sound bombs" under orders from the Israeli prime minister to "make sure no one sleeps at night in Gaza"; fired missiles into residential areas, killing children; and demolished a power station that was the sole generator of electricity and running water for hundreds of thousands of Gazans.
Hezbollah claims their attack was designed to help the Palestinians negotiate a prisoner release. But the consequences are already extraordinarily dangerous, for Lebanese civilians as well as for Palestinians, and potentially for the region as a whole. In response to the capture of the soldiers, Israel again showed its willingness to target civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure. Israeli warplanes attacked two bridges over the Litani River deep in southern Lebanon, and bombed the airport out of commission. That was followed by Israel's land and sea incursion with tanks, gunboats and planes across the Lebanese border. Israel destroyed the home of Hezbollah leader Ibrahim Nasrullah, who answered with a call for "open warfare." By July 18, over 200 Lebanese civilians have been killed, and more than 200 injured; 12 Israelis have been killed.
Things are that simple, aren't they!
http://www.shamar.org/emet/analysis/arab_claim_to_palestine.htm
Exactly where did I say this?
You've got some issues... but I can understand why you see the world the way you do.
1) Yes I have; the actions of the Israeli government.
2) Fuck off, you understand nothing.
Say what you mean, dont insinuate. Coward.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
yeah you know, we're all sheep and all that...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Hezbollah on the other hand goes out of their way to intentionally kill as many civillians as possible. They are lobbing rockets into Israel with the intent to hit anything.
That said, I understand all the points of view in here. I rack my simple mind every day for some sort of answer. Relegion is usually the monkey wrench.
I think we're on the same page. Good post. Discresion would not undermine at all Israel's ability to defend itself. They are going to be held to a higher standard.
Attacking the lebanese military and Beiruit is going way, way overboard, no reason to start a fight where there is none, even if 3 or 4 of the head guys from Hezbollah do live in Beiruit. It's just not a good idea, neither was invading Iraq.
Good post, i wonder what it will take for the Lebanese army to answer while their soldiers are being killed by Israel for no reason...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
As they should be and that doesn't mean that we don't hold Hezbollah or Hamas responsible we just believe that a state should not be resorting to the same tactics as terrorists.
I don't think the Lebanese military will retaliate. They know that they are out-manned and out-gunned and would fair much better by just digging in and ducking for cover. They are probably relying on the international community intefering and putting a stop to this, which should have happened by now.
I wish it was as clear-cut as that. Certainly Isreal does show some measure of restraint. Considering the military might of that nation, the very continued existence of the surrounding populations demonstrate that fact.
However, some measure of restraint cannot make up for an opposite measure of aggression. Israel uses strong arm tactics that kill thousands. Those acts are not justified simply because those same strong arm tactics taken to a greater degree could kill millions. Furthermore, these acts are typically quite disproportionate to the aggression they are in response to. To invade a nation because of the acts of a few within that nation and kill hundreds in the process of retreiving two men is not a just action. Israel should recognize by now that fear tactics are not a path to long term peace.
This is true. And no amount of aggression on the part of the IDF justifies the random lobbing of missles into markets and civilian targets.
There is only one answer to the unreasonable: reason.
There is only one answer to the illogical: logic.
There is only one answer to death: life.
The answers you seek are there. However, they are not found on an IDF tank or an Hezbollah rocket. The aggression on both sides is far beyond reason, logic and life.
The answers are found in the men and women who simply wish to live their own lives regardless of the existence of other people in their environment. The Palestinians and Israelis who care not about the deaths of others but only the lives of themselves hold the keys to peace.
and you know what, i'm under the impression that this attitude is exactly why Hezbollah are so popular and have more power than the Lebanese army. People dying are seeking for help, if this help come from the Hezbollah, they'll support the Hezbollah.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
This is a wonderful post. Kudos.
Once again: civilians are MORE than just numbers. I don't even understand the plain idea of "death statistics". In fact, it makes me sick to my stomech. Oh yeah, excuse us for having a shelter and not being killed, please forgive most of northeren Israel's people for running away & leaving their homes behind, and the ones like me who stayed and got missed by the missiles only cause of luck. Really, sorry for not being dead and therfore contradicting your price-less conclusions from a stupid statistics.
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More than just numbers eh? I wonder, would you be saying that if it was 300 dead Israelis to just 15 dead Lebanese?
Double standards methinks, and illustrates clearly your feelings towards your Palestinian and Lebanese fellow human beings.
Numbers are numbers, and cannot be manipulated no matter how hard you try.
* Latest 'numbers' updated on page 1...
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
And personally, I think you could show someone in shiraz's position a little more respect, even if you don't agree with all his statements. If indeed there's a double standard here, it probably stems from him actually being in the line of fire. I think its forgiveable, at least at this point in time.
Based on everything I've heard, Hezbollah does not help the average Lebanese, anymore than a tick helps the animal whose body it hides on. Hezbollah isn't protecting Lebanese who aren't members of Hezbollah .... Its firing rockets at Israel to kill Isrealis, something it does no matter what happens in Lebanon proper.
A people need a way to defend themselves...to discourage an invasion or to remove an occupying force-which is basically what Israel is doing in Lebanon right now, invading. In the 80's it wasn't until many attacks from groups like Hamas and Hezbollah that Israel pulled out-otherwise they'd still have control of the area.
Although Hezbollah and Hamas shouldn't be put in the same category-Hezbollah indiscriminiately retaliates-targets civilians and so on- while Hamas has a strict policy of miltary targets only.
Its a terrible thing, war-and innocent people die. That's why Israel shouldn't be getting $2 billion from the US every year in military aid-they keep starting shit like this.
Hey danmac,have you read this earlier post.
This is a great post,but I have not read any
of the Arab/Hezbollah defenders state as such.
is that exactly what I thought I read?"
How I choose to feel,...Is how I am.
It's funny that you are calling yourself a liberal or a peace activist. So far you are the one who is full with so much hate around here, dealing with death comparison in such a blindness way. You are actually nothing more than a pathetic war activist. Nothing more.
You can keep talking whatever you want, I'm not gonna bother responding to a person like you - you're not worth it.
Exactly. Hezbollah was launched to fight the Israeli occupation. All of these militant groups are fighting occupation.
The only occupation these terrorist groups have is killing innocents on purpose.
Learn your history.
is that exactly what I thought I read?"
How I choose to feel,...Is how I am.