I can't say I've read this entire thread, but I did read most of it, so my apologies in advance if this has already been brought up and thoroughly trounced upon.
I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that Russia never had to face Mr. Erwin Rommel aka "The Desert Fox" f'n badass tank commander of the century.
There's a reason why Russia never had to deal with Rommel, and that reason is that Rommel was too busy giving the allies a run for their money in Africa.
Thus far, I think we can all agree that Stalingrad was pretty much the turning point of WWII. FYI: The person commanding the 6th German Army, the army that was annihilated at Stalingrad, was Field Marshal Friedrich Paulus. In spite of being encircled by the Russians, he blindly obeyed Hitler's orders against his own better judgment and held his position in Stalingrad.
Rommel would not have been so obedient. It was because he disobeyed Hiter's orders to stand his ground in El Alamein that he was able to regroup and defeat the US II Corps in the battle of Kasserine Pass.
So, had the 6th German army been commanded by Rommel instead of Paulus, we may or may not have seen a German defeat in Stalingrad.
Well, Hitler's orders were law. He would have your family killed if you disobeyed. I think Rommel ended up suiciding didn't he? I know a few of his guys suicided so they wouldn't have to follow Hitler's command anymore.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well, Hitler's orders were law. He would have your family killed if you disobeyed. I think Rommel ended up suiciding didn't he? I know a few of his guys suicided so they wouldn't have to follow Hitler's command anymore.
He ended up suiciding because he was discovered to be involved in the plot against hitler. But, that's still beside the point. My point is that without the americans helping keep rommel busy, he very well may have been in stalingrad, which may or may not have changed the outcome of stalingrad.
I spent a week in Germany about a year and a half ago, and I developed a taste for it. Plus, it was easy to remember, and I didn't look like some tourist boob ordering one.
It's a hefe-weisen and I believe it's owned by Spaten. Well stocked stores and bars in the U.S. tend to have it; and I'd recommend it. It's one of my "reward" beers. You know, as opposed to the standard "I need a fucking beer" beers.
OH, it was a name brand. LOL. Yeah, hefe is great, but Krystal is my fav, if only because it isnt as 'thick' as hefe. (from what Im told, Krystal is 'filtered' Hefe) You can get full quick drinkin hefe. Its still brewing! Lately I been drinkin Moose Drool Brown Ale, 10x better tasting than Amberboch IMO.
I don't think that anyone can discount the effect the U.S. had against Germany during WWII. Could the U.S. have done it alone? Maybe... maybe not. There were too many other factors involved:
Hitler's poor decisions:
Going after London after allied bombers hit Berlin. Had he listened to Goering and kept on bombing RAF Fields and British aircraft manufacturing facilities, the Battle Of Britian may have had very different outcomes.
Going after Russia. The Russians killed a lot of German soldiers (at extremely heavy losses of their own) but it was the Russian Winter that killed them. The taking on the Eastern Front when the Western Front was not accomplished was a poor, poor decision.
His decisions on German manufacturing. Had Germany continued its heavy bomber program with the Focke-Wulf Condor, they would have had the ability to reach further into Russia. The Russians moved their heavy manufacturing deep into the Ural Mountains, out of reach of German medium bombers. Hitler did not listen to his generals. He believed his Blitzkrieg war would be able to take land and move across in short hops, instead of long range heavy bombing.
He also re-directed the Messerschmidt Me-262 to become the first jet bomber. It was designed as a high altitude interceptor to take out slow moving allied bomber formations. The configuration changes to set hard points for bombs on the wings and fuselage changed the flight characteristics of the craft and altered its performance envelope. and, most importantly, delayed its deployment in heavy numbers allowing allied bombing raids to lay waste over Messerschmidt and other German factories.
Hitler's ego played a part in Hitler's undoing.
...
But, again... no one can discount America's role in WWII. and i think it is a falisy to believe that America, alone, won the war.
and the decision to basically make the Kreigsmarine a submarine only navy...did not finish additional heavy battleships and did not carry through plans for aircraft carriers.
Hitler did not understand naval warfare or the Kreigsmarine itself. The higher ups in naval warfare tended not to be party (Nazi) loyalists. This branch military was even allowed to retain Jewish officers.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
OH, it was a name brand. LOL. Yeah, hefe is great, but Krystal is my fav, if only because it isnt as 'thick' as hefe. (from what Im told, Krystal is 'filtered' Hefe) You can get full quick drinkin hefe. Its still brewing! Lately I been drinkin Moose Drool Brown Ale, 10x better tasting than Amberboch IMO.
Mmmmm, few more hours till work is done.
See, I like the thick texture. In Germany, I even had the bartenders add more wheat if they had it. Ah, Germany. I went from bemused surprise when a waitress asked me if I wanted any extra wheat - whaddya mean, extra wheat? - to asking bartenders for it.
Provided they spoke English.
Which many did.
Thankfully.
I'll have to try Krystal, though. Is there a specific brand you'd recommend, or is Krystal the brand?
i've never heard that before. Interesting. got any links?
Dude........I read that in things called books..years ago....they are stashed somewhere here in the house. If I run across them, I will provide the info.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
See, I like the thick texture. In Germany, I even had the bartenders add more wheat if they had it. Ah, Germany. I went from bemused surprise when a waitress asked me if I wanted any extra wheat - whaddya mean, extra wheat? - to asking bartenders for it.
Provided they spoke English.
Which many did.
Thankfully.
I'll have to try Krystal, though. Is there a specific brand you'd recommend, or is Krystal the brand?
Take me with you
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I take your point. However, they were also fighting 3/4's of the entire German army.
And what if they had been fighting the 1/4 as well??? or the army that eventually got smashed in North Africa?? Or the troops proping up Benito?? Would the outcome be the same?????
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
...
Acht der lieben!!! Schnell!!! Amerikanski schwineholtzen!!!
America actually came pretty close way back yonder to having German as it's national language. There was a vote in the 1700's as far as I know in which English won by a mere 1 vote count. Somebody on here probably knows more about it than me.
God forbid I cannot cope w/ a borderline troll's (you) reply to my own post. Who's common notion are you building on? Not mine,..seems your assumption that if I dont agree w/ people constantly bashing the US for no better reason than to pat themselves on the back, that I must beleive the US is flawless. Far from the truth sweetheart. Seems you always tail on my posts when me and another are in the middle of a discussion/debate/conversation about the US and your mid-conversation replies are always the same.
...a troll, huh...he he he he...
trail your posts...?!?!
priceless...please, oh, please...keep posting...your wit and charm is so very refreshing...cussing and all, very refined, indeed...
USA FUCK YEAH...woooo hoooo...you rule, sister....you rule...
It's all relevant you see. You can twist this around anyway you like, but the allies would not have won WWII without the United States and that is a fact. The allies would not have won without the Soviet Union, that is a fact. Now you can debate until your head falls off who played a bigger part, but it's just a crap shoot.
Without the Battle of Brittain, there wouldn't have been the battle of Moscow or Stalingrad.
Whether you like it or not, D-day was the most pivitol moment of World war 2. If the allies had been turned back on June 6th, 1944, then the Germans would have probably won the war.
Regardless of WW 2 , most historians agree that D-day was the most significant day of the 20th century as a whole.
Most Americans don't view the war as being won by us alone. We regonize the sacrifice by all countries and people's that brought an end to the war.
You are eat up with bias my friend. Somehow you have been severly stigmatized towards America. Try not to hype the sterotypes so much. I can't help but think of the dude in American History X when I read your posts. You need to wake the hell up!!! America is a country of 300 million people - quit buying into the sterotypes!!!
I'm sorry, but the only way I can answer your post is by stating quite frankly that it's utter crap. You say that "If the allies had been turned back on June 6th, 1944, then the Germans would have probably won the war." I mean why say something that is blatently untrue? By June 1944, the German army in the East was on the run from the Russians. Most of the German army had been sent to the eastern front to bolster up the defence of Berlin. Do you honstly believe that the german army was capable in June 1944 of mounting a successful counter-attack? They had already stood their last stand at Kursk in 1943 and lost. By June 1944 the game was up for Nazi germany.
You state that "Somehow you have been severly stigmatized towards America." Really? How so? I was merely responding to a post which stated that without the U.S we'd be speaking German now. That statement wss bollocks. And I have posted links on here which give plenty of support to my arguments. I have nothing against America, but I do have an issue with anyone who spouts crap. I will always do my best to deconstruct arguments or statements which I know to be false, or unfounded.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I can't say I've read this entire thread, but I did read most of it, so my apologies in advance if this has already been brought up and thoroughly trounced upon.
I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that Russia never had to face Mr. Erwin Rommel aka "The Desert Fox" f'n badass tank commander of the century.
There's a reason why Russia never had to deal with Rommel, and that reason is that Rommel was too busy giving the allies a run for their money in Africa.
Thus far, I think we can all agree that Stalingrad was pretty much the turning point of WWII. FYI: The person commanding the 6th German Army, the army that was annihilated at Stalingrad, was Field Marshal Friedrich Paulus. In spite of being encircled by the Russians, he blindly obeyed Hitler's orders against his own better judgment and held his position in Stalingrad.
Rommel would not have been so obedient. It was because he disobeyed Hiter's orders to stand his ground in El Alamein that he was able to regroup and defeat the US II Corps in the battle of Kasserine Pass.
So, had the 6th German army been commanded by Rommel instead of Paulus, we may or may not have seen a German defeat in Stalingrad.
That's a fair point. However, seeing as you appear to have a fondness for tanks, let me ask you what you know of the biggest tank battle in history....Kursk?
'The Battle of Kursk, also known as Operation Zitadelle by the German Army, or Operation Citadel in English, was a significant battle on the Eastern Front of World War II. It remains the largest armored engagement of all time, and included the most costly single day of aerial warfare in history...'
I just wonder what would have indeed happened if Rommel had faced the Russians on open ground at Kursk. It certainly would have been an epic battle.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yeah. It means 'Good evening. My name is Byrnzie. Yes!'
I've been learning a little bit.
Po'shyol na hui moodak - means 'fuck you asshole'!
It's always good to learn the important things first!
Haha, I learned Privet Kak'dela or some shit, but I don't have the slightest idea how to pronounce it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I repeat: 9 out of every 10 german soldiers were killed in Russia. Russia liberated Aushwitz. Russia captured Berlin. Russian casualties were 100 times greater than America's.
Therefore: When an American says that if it wasn't for America we'd be speaking German now, I tend to get a bit disgusted.
Well technically the quote said that if it wasnt for our Grandparents , which is very true and every verteran of WW2 should be respected equally, it was a cumulative effort, i mean if it wasn't for Americas involvment than Germany wouldnt have had to fight a two front war and Italy would have still been in the war, and the same can be said for Russia, not to mention the british and the RAF which held strong against the Luftwafa(sic?), and kept hope alive in Europe the fact of the matter is that it was all the allies together that helped win the war
PJ at MSG in 2008! Mission Accomplished
The band all knows. We're too afraid to mention.
Don't want to be part of Frank's luncheon.
Lose weight. Be safe. Where's Mike McCready?
My god he's been ate!
Well technically the quote said that if it wasnt for our Grandparents , which is very true and every verteran of WW2 should be respected equally, it was a cumulative effort, i mean if it wasn't for Americas involvment than Germany wouldnt have had to fight a two front war and Italy would have still been in the war, and the same can be said for Russia, not to mention the british and the RAF which held strong against the Luftwafa(sic?), and kept hope alive in Europe the fact of the matter is that it was all the allies together that helped win the war
But the germans were already fighting a war in the West, and in North Africa. Sure, Hitlers decision to invade Russia proved to be his undoing. He sorely underestimated Russia and the Russian character. I'm not for a second saying that there was no combined effort. I just think that it's time people realise where the main effort came from. You only have to look at the statistics to see that what the Russians did was central to Germany's defeat. Seriously, when you look at the figures and look at the war as a whole then it's quite clear where most of the credit lays. In the battle of Stalingrad alone more people died than the allies lost in the entire war. The same can be said of the defense of Moscow. These facts alone speak volumes. I'm not denigrating Americans, or anyone else. I'm simply putting things into perspective.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well technically the quote said that if it wasnt for our Grandparents , which is very true and every verteran of WW2 should be respected equally, it was a cumulative effort, i mean if it wasn't for Americas involvment than Germany wouldnt have had to fight a two front war and Italy would have still been in the war, and the same can be said for Russia, not to mention the british and the RAF which held strong against the Luftwafa(sic?), and kept hope alive in Europe the fact of the matter is that it was all the allies together that helped win the war
Yep ... Also, the massive U.S. industrial machine built not only the bombers that crippled Hitler's war machine (I wonder if the Germans could have beat Russia if their factories hadn't been smashed to bits?), but also built many of the ground weapons used by the Allies, including the Soviets. The latter had their own T-34s and Stalin tanks (in spades), but they were heavily reliant on U.S. material as well. Trucks, infantry weapons ...
The American contribution in material and logical support was as significant as the Soviet's contribution to the actual fighting. The latter took the pounding from the Germans and did much of the grunt work. But its not clear that the Soviets could have won it all without American aid.
But the germans were already fighting a war in the West, and in North Africa. Sure, Hitlers decision to invade Russia proved to be his undoing. He sorely underestimated Russia and the Russian character. I'm not for a second saying that there was no combined effort. I just think that it's time people realise where the main effort came from. You only have to look at the statistics to see that what the Russians did was central to Germany's defeat. Seriously, when you look at the figures and look at the war as a whole then it's quite clear where most of the credit lays. In the battle of Stalingrad alone more people died that the allies lost in the entire war. The same can be said of the defense of Moscow. These facts alone speak volumes. I'm not denigrating Americans, or anyone else. I'm simply putting things into perspective.
Yep ... Also, the massive U.S. industrial machine built not only the bombers that crippled Hitler's war machine (I wonder if the Germans could have beat Russia if their factories hadn't been smashed to bits?), but also built many of the ground weapons used by the Allies, including the Soviets. The latter had their own T-34s and Stalin tanks (in spades), but they were heavily reliant on U.S. material as well. Trucks, infantry weapons ...
The American contribution in material and logical support was as significant as the Soviet's contribution to the actual fighting. The latter took the pounding from the Germans and did much of the grunt work. But its not clear that the Soviets could have won it all without American aid.
True. The air drops by the allies into Russia played a large part.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Without the Germans we might be talking Russian here. They gave us weapons and in the end also troops to keep the Russians away and later the Germans were chased out to Norway.
One of the reasons why Hitler underestimated Stalin's forces was that Stalin underestimated us and couldn't conquer Finland with his army. After seeing how huge losses Russia suffered against our tiny army Hitler thought the Soviet troops to be no match for the Germans, but of course they fought differently when they were defending their homeland and not attacking some unknown small country.
Without the Germans we might be talking Russian here. They gave us weapons and in the end also troops to keep the Russians away and later the Germans were chased out to Norway.
One of the reasons why Hitler underestimated Stalin's forces was that Stalin underestimated us and couldn't conquer Finland with his army. After seeing how huge losses Russia suffered against our tiny army Hitler thought the Soviet troops to be no match for the Germans, but of course they fought differently when they were defending their homeland and not attacking some unknown small country.
The Winter War was won because the Russians were equipped to fight in the Tundra and the German's froze their asses off.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Well, Hitler's orders were law. He would have your family killed if you disobeyed. I think Rommel ended up suiciding didn't he? I know a few of his guys suicided so they wouldn't have to follow Hitler's command anymore.
He ended up suiciding because he was discovered to be involved in the plot against hitler. But, that's still beside the point. My point is that without the americans helping keep rommel busy, he very well may have been in stalingrad, which may or may not have changed the outcome of stalingrad.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
OH, it was a name brand. LOL. Yeah, hefe is great, but Krystal is my fav, if only because it isnt as 'thick' as hefe. (from what Im told, Krystal is 'filtered' Hefe) You can get full quick drinkin hefe. Its still brewing! Lately I been drinkin Moose Drool Brown Ale, 10x better tasting than Amberboch IMO.
Mmmmm, few more hours till work is done.
and the decision to basically make the Kreigsmarine a submarine only navy...did not finish additional heavy battleships and did not carry through plans for aircraft carriers.
Hitler did not understand naval warfare or the Kreigsmarine itself. The higher ups in naval warfare tended not to be party (Nazi) loyalists. This branch military was even allowed to retain Jewish officers.
i've never heard that before. Interesting. got any links?
Provided they spoke English.
Which many did.
Thankfully.
I'll have to try Krystal, though. Is there a specific brand you'd recommend, or is Krystal the brand?
Take me with you
America actually came pretty close way back yonder to having German as it's national language. There was a vote in the 1700's as far as I know in which English won by a mere 1 vote count. Somebody on here probably knows more about it than me.
...a troll, huh...he he he he...
trail your posts...?!?!
priceless...please, oh, please...keep posting...your wit and charm is so very refreshing...cussing and all, very refined, indeed...
USA FUCK YEAH...woooo hoooo...you rule, sister....you rule...
(((((Bows to your greatness)))))
How about some Rooskie?
Doobraye vyecher! Meenya zavoot Byrnzie! Da!
I'm sorry, but the only way I can answer your post is by stating quite frankly that it's utter crap. You say that "If the allies had been turned back on June 6th, 1944, then the Germans would have probably won the war." I mean why say something that is blatently untrue? By June 1944, the German army in the East was on the run from the Russians. Most of the German army had been sent to the eastern front to bolster up the defence of Berlin. Do you honstly believe that the german army was capable in June 1944 of mounting a successful counter-attack? They had already stood their last stand at Kursk in 1943 and lost. By June 1944 the game was up for Nazi germany.
You state that "Somehow you have been severly stigmatized towards America." Really? How so? I was merely responding to a post which stated that without the U.S we'd be speaking German now. That statement wss bollocks. And I have posted links on here which give plenty of support to my arguments. I have nothing against America, but I do have an issue with anyone who spouts crap. I will always do my best to deconstruct arguments or statements which I know to be false, or unfounded.
Is that Russian?
That's a fair point. However, seeing as you appear to have a fondness for tanks, let me ask you what you know of the biggest tank battle in history....Kursk?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk
http://www.uni.edu/~licari/review15.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-prokhorovka
'The Battle of Kursk, also known as Operation Zitadelle by the German Army, or Operation Citadel in English, was a significant battle on the Eastern Front of World War II. It remains the largest armored engagement of all time, and included the most costly single day of aerial warfare in history...'
I just wonder what would have indeed happened if Rommel had faced the Russians on open ground at Kursk. It certainly would have been an epic battle.
Yeah. It means 'Good evening. My name is Byrnzie. Yes!'
I've been learning a little bit.
Po'shyol na hui moodak - means 'fuck you asshole'!
It's always good to learn the important things first!
Haha, I learned Privet Kak'dela or some shit, but I don't have the slightest idea how to pronounce it.
The band all knows. We're too afraid to mention.
Don't want to be part of Frank's luncheon.
Lose weight. Be safe. Where's Mike McCready?
My god he's been ate!
That means hi! How are you? Right?
Privyet Kak de'la
The Germans could have won the battle of Kursk as it was ... Poor tactical decisions cost them. Maybe Rommel would have made better decisions.
But the germans were already fighting a war in the West, and in North Africa. Sure, Hitlers decision to invade Russia proved to be his undoing. He sorely underestimated Russia and the Russian character. I'm not for a second saying that there was no combined effort. I just think that it's time people realise where the main effort came from. You only have to look at the statistics to see that what the Russians did was central to Germany's defeat. Seriously, when you look at the figures and look at the war as a whole then it's quite clear where most of the credit lays. In the battle of Stalingrad alone more people died than the allies lost in the entire war. The same can be said of the defense of Moscow. These facts alone speak volumes. I'm not denigrating Americans, or anyone else. I'm simply putting things into perspective.
Yea, I think so, something like that.
Yep ... Also, the massive U.S. industrial machine built not only the bombers that crippled Hitler's war machine (I wonder if the Germans could have beat Russia if their factories hadn't been smashed to bits?), but also built many of the ground weapons used by the Allies, including the Soviets. The latter had their own T-34s and Stalin tanks (in spades), but they were heavily reliant on U.S. material as well. Trucks, infantry weapons ...
The American contribution in material and logical support was as significant as the Soviet's contribution to the actual fighting. The latter took the pounding from the Germans and did much of the grunt work. But its not clear that the Soviets could have won it all without American aid.
I like the word for Goodbye...
До свидания!
Da sveedaneeya
Good-bye!
Д о с в и д а н и я!
D a s v ee d a n ee ya!
Decent argument ...
True. The air drops by the allies into Russia played a large part.
Ye, I just say Dogspitonya
One of the reasons why Hitler underestimated Stalin's forces was that Stalin underestimated us and couldn't conquer Finland with his army. After seeing how huge losses Russia suffered against our tiny army Hitler thought the Soviet troops to be no match for the Germans, but of course they fought differently when they were defending their homeland and not attacking some unknown small country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Then again 1 Finn equals about 500 Russians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
The Winter War was won because the Russians were equipped to fight in the Tundra and the German's froze their asses off.