BUT..BUT..BUT..BUT.. The US dropped the bomb! It was the US!....They dropped the bomb...all thier fault!
Now who's turning it into a discussion about the bomb :rolleyes:
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Wrong! The turning point of World war 2 was Stalingrad. The German army never fully recovered from that defeat and was slowly driven back to Berlin. D-Day pales in comparison.
Got proof? Or did you create this fact yourself? Of course the eastern front was weakened tremendously, but dont htink for a second that it was a walk in the park. Seems your only motive in this thread is the down play the important role the the US did playin the WW2.
Do what again? genocide? it's happening all over the world, the powers that be only tend to get involved in certain cases...
Or the bomb? god only knows, I hope not.
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
This is what I think. Without US involvement Yalta wouldn't have gone the way it did in shaping post-war Europe. Churchill wouldn't have been able to bully Stalin. Like it or not, the US brought power to the table that wouldn't have otherwise existed.
True. Although as I said above the U.S couldn't give a shit about Britain when we were at our most vulnerable during the period 1939 - 1941. The U.S only agreed to assist in cross-Atlantic transportation after bribing Britain out of much of it's colonial assets in the West Indies and elsewhere.
Wrong! The turning point of World war 2 was Stalingrad. The German army never fully recovered from that defeat and was slowly driven back to Berlin. D-Day pales in comparison.
Got proof? Or did you create this fact yourself? Of course the eastern front was weakened tremendously, but dont htink for a second that it was a walk in the park. Seems your only motive in this thread is the down play the important role the the US did playin the WW2.
The proof is right there for anyone with any interest in the subject to discover. What's shameful is how many in the West are ignorant of these facts, and of how many people still believe that D-day was the pivotal moment of World war 2. I think it's a massive insult to those millions of Russians who were killed in the effort to defeat the German army on the Eastern front.
True. Although as I said above the U.S couldn't give a shit about Britain when we were at our most vulnerable during the period 1939 - 1941. The U.S only agreed to assist in cross-Atlantic transportation after bribing Britain out of much of it's colonial assets in the West Indies and elsewhere.
So are you pissed that Britain isnt the lone Empire anymore? Sounds like you're getting a little upset because the US has kinda taken your place as world power.
So are you pissed that Britain isnt the lone Empire anymore? Sounds like you're getting a little upset because the US has kinda taken your place as world power.
Believe me, I know the guy, that couldn't be further from the truth...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
The proof is right there for anyone with any interest in the subject to discover. What's shameful is how many in the West are ignorant of these facts, and of how many people still believe that D-day was the pivotal moment of World war 2. I think it's a massive insult to those millions of Russians who were killed in the effort to defeat the German army in Eastern Europe.
Im not insulting anyone. and I've given credit where its due. You are the one not giving credit, and are actually doing your best to down play actual events to strengthen your argument. Waht is shameful is your coming on here and assuming your know 'oh so much' about what happened and assuming us in the west are ignorant to your own version of history. And I asked for some proof from you. an un-biased link, something to back up your supposed facts/statistics.
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
The proof is right there for anyone with any interest in the subject to discover. What's shameful is how many in the West are ignorant of these facts, and of how many people still believe that D-day was the pivotal moment of World war 2. I think it's a massive insult to those millions of Russians who were killed in the effort to defeat the German army on the Eastern front.
shameful? you admitted to maginalizing american deaths because russia had a higher body count. look in the mirror buddy
Im not insulting anyone. and I've given credit where its due. You are the one not giving credit, and are actually doing your best to down play actual events to strengthen your argument. Waht is shameful is your coming on here and assuming your know 'oh so much' about what happened and assuming us in the west are ignorant to your own version of history. And I asked for some proof from you. an un-biased link, something to back up your supposed facts/statistics.
I've already provided two links above if you'll take the trouble to read them.
Im not insulting anyone. and I've given credit where its due. You are the one not giving credit, and are actually doing your best to down play actual events to strengthen your argument.
The argument stands on it's own without any help from me. As far as downplaying events, as I've already said, I'm merely putting things in perspective.
Just saw this post of yours on another thread and felt compelled to respond.
Question 1: Are you aware that the USSR was involved in World war 2?
Question 2: Are you aware that 9 out of every 10 German soldiers who were killed in World war 2 were killed in Russia?
Question 3. Where was America between 1939 and 1941, when Britain was at it's most vulnerable and before Pearl Harbour dragged you in?
Fact: More people died during the battle of Moscow in 1941 than all of the British and American casualties in world war 2 combined.
Fact: More people died during the battle of Stalingrad in 1942 than all of the British and American casualties in world war 2 combined.
Discuss...
1. Yes, The Soviet Union invaded Poland and Finland while Germany was also invading Poland from the west. At that time, there existed a non-agression pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. After the conquest of continental Europe, the pact was broken by a Nazi invasion of USSR. For some reasons clouded in mystery, the invasion of Great Britain never went through.
2. Yes, unsuccessful land invasions of Russia have always resulted in huge losses for both the invader and the defender. Ask Napoleon. Ask Charles XII why Sweden is/was not a major power after the days of Peter the Great. The "scorched earth" style of warfare also results in massive death from things other than bullets and bombs.
3. It's called isolationism. We were a nation still working our way out of the Great Depression. We had a fair number of folks with German and Italian ancestory, and our great national hero, Lindeburgh, was on the speech circuit advocating ties to Nazi Germany. Before you critize our role during those years, look up things like the Lend-Lease Act and sales of military equipment to Great Britain (a number of old warships included) in those years.
As to your facts, when battles take place on one of the combatant's home soil....their death toll will be higher. Most of the U.S. Civil War was fought in the Confederate areas, thus their death toll was higher.
The other allies (Great Britain and the U.S.) did supply Stalin's nation with goods and arms under the Lend-Lease act.
As to Stalingard, the longest seige in world history should produce a large number of casualties on both sides. It's simple wartime math.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Obviously Russia played an enormous role in the European theater of WW2 and I'm not trying to take anything away from their contributions, but they didn't have their forces split like the US and Britain did between the European, African, and Asian campaigns.
I mean Russia didn't declare war on Japan in WW2 until the day after the first atomic bomb was dropped.
So one could argue that it was easiest for Russia out of all the Allies to combat the Germans because they were the only ones fighting a one front war.
As to Stalingard, the longest seige in world history should produce a large number of casualties on both sides. It's simple wartime math.
It may be looked at as a simple matter of wartime math. It can also be looked at for what it was: Germany's biggest defeat - the capture of the entire 6th army - and the turning point of the war. The Russian counter-offensive drove the German army back to Berlin - albeit with the largest armoured battle in history taking place along the way at Kursk, in which half a million soldiers were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk
I'll reiterate: I'm responding to 69charger's post that we'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans. I believe this to be incredibly delusionary - with no disrespect to the sacrifices made by Americans in the war.
It may be looked at as a simple matter of wartime math. It can also be looked at for what it was: Germany's biggest defeat - the capture of the entire 6th army - and the turning point of the war. The Russian counter-offensive drove the German army back to Berlin - albeit with the largest armoured battle in history taking place along the way at Kursk, in which half a million soldiers were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk
I'll reiterate: I'm responding to 69charger's post that we'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans. I believe this to be incredibly delusionary - with no disrespect to the sacrifices made by Americans in the war.
Again, no one that I've seen so far in this thread is down playing the part the Russia played.
Obviously Russia played an enormous role in the European theater of WW2 and I'm not trying to take anything away from their contributions, but they didn't have their forces split like the US and Britain did between the European, African, and Asian campaigns.
I mean Russia didn't declare war on Japan in WW2 until the day after the first atomic bomb was dropped.
So one could argue that it was easiest for Russia out of all the Allies to combat the Germans because they were the only ones fighting a one front war.
I take your point. However, they were also fighting 3/4's of the entire German army.
Again, no one that I've seen so far in this thread is down playing the part the Russia played.
exactly, his only point was to downplay the significance of america's involvment in the war. which he admits to marginalizing the americans death. or as he calls "put into prespective"
No, probably not Russian either.......the Russians faced the same problems that the Germans did when it came to projecting power across water. The Russians were like the Germans in the fact that their naval forces were either not designed to project force over distance or greatly undersupplied. The U-boats were great devices for interdicting commerce or troop movements across the ocean. They were not tools for invading island (fortified) nations. Following the sinking of the Bismarck, most of the German surface assets were limited by Hitler to activities within an umbrella of protection provided by the Luftwaffe. One of the possible reasons for the non-invasion of Britain in Operation Sea Lion was a lack of ships to project the force and tote the troops.
The Soviet navy lacked ships and warm water ports. The forces of the navy had yet to recover from Tsar Nichola II's ill-advised war with Japan. If Stalin had decided to steam-roll across Europe, he would have been looking across the channel and dreaming of what might be..........just like his buddy Adolf did. The Soviets were not a naval power until the Cold War era.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
exactly, his only point was to downplay the significance of america's involvment in the war. which he admits to marginalizing the americans death. or as he calls "put into prespective"
Not just the death count. But the efforts and their overall significance.
without the united states, german would be the pre-domininant language in the world today....liberals never want to give america credit.
Best country ever
I applaud you on your insightful contribution to this thread. You have made me look at the world and at history in a whole new way. Whilst reading your post I felt the cogs of my mind shift a gear. I owe you an eternal dept for showing me the truth and the light.
I am not nationalistic or even all that patriotic but this is thread is over the top. If Western European countries were better equipped to handle the Germans it would have never escalated into a world war.
Comments
according to you, I'm wrong. but the fact of the matter is, US involvment in WWII helped win the war. understand? good. im glad we cleared that up
Now who's turning it into a discussion about the bomb :rolleyes:
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Yes, but are we afraid we might do it again?
Got proof? Or did you create this fact yourself? Of course the eastern front was weakened tremendously, but dont htink for a second that it was a walk in the park. Seems your only motive in this thread is the down play the important role the the US did playin the WW2.
Do what again? genocide? it's happening all over the world, the powers that be only tend to get involved in certain cases...
Or the bomb? god only knows, I hope not.
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
True. Although as I said above the U.S couldn't give a shit about Britain when we were at our most vulnerable during the period 1939 - 1941. The U.S only agreed to assist in cross-Atlantic transportation after bribing Britain out of much of it's colonial assets in the West Indies and elsewhere.
Heh, just a lil' humor.
I'd count the cracking of the Enigma code, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
The proof is right there for anyone with any interest in the subject to discover. What's shameful is how many in the West are ignorant of these facts, and of how many people still believe that D-day was the pivotal moment of World war 2. I think it's a massive insult to those millions of Russians who were killed in the effort to defeat the German army on the Eastern front.
So are you pissed that Britain isnt the lone Empire anymore? Sounds like you're getting a little upset because the US has kinda taken your place as world power.
Believe me, I know the guy, that couldn't be further from the truth...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Im not insulting anyone. and I've given credit where its due. You are the one not giving credit, and are actually doing your best to down play actual events to strengthen your argument. Waht is shameful is your coming on here and assuming your know 'oh so much' about what happened and assuming us in the west are ignorant to your own version of history. And I asked for some proof from you. an un-biased link, something to back up your supposed facts/statistics.
Its how im taking this conversation so far...
?
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
shameful? you admitted to maginalizing american deaths because russia had a higher body count. look in the mirror buddy
I've already provided two links above if you'll take the trouble to read them.
The argument stands on it's own without any help from me. As far as downplaying events, as I've already said, I'm merely putting things in perspective.
2. Yes, unsuccessful land invasions of Russia have always resulted in huge losses for both the invader and the defender. Ask Napoleon. Ask Charles XII why Sweden is/was not a major power after the days of Peter the Great. The "scorched earth" style of warfare also results in massive death from things other than bullets and bombs.
3. It's called isolationism. We were a nation still working our way out of the Great Depression. We had a fair number of folks with German and Italian ancestory, and our great national hero, Lindeburgh, was on the speech circuit advocating ties to Nazi Germany. Before you critize our role during those years, look up things like the Lend-Lease Act and sales of military equipment to Great Britain (a number of old warships included) in those years.
As to your facts, when battles take place on one of the combatant's home soil....their death toll will be higher. Most of the U.S. Civil War was fought in the Confederate areas, thus their death toll was higher.
The other allies (Great Britain and the U.S.) did supply Stalin's nation with goods and arms under the Lend-Lease act.
As to Stalingard, the longest seige in world history should produce a large number of casualties on both sides. It's simple wartime math.
Best country ever
I have checked them out. Alot of Russians died. No one is disputing that fact.
I mean Russia didn't declare war on Japan in WW2 until the day after the first atomic bomb was dropped.
So one could argue that it was easiest for Russia out of all the Allies to combat the Germans because they were the only ones fighting a one front war.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
It may be looked at as a simple matter of wartime math. It can also be looked at for what it was: Germany's biggest defeat - the capture of the entire 6th army - and the turning point of the war. The Russian counter-offensive drove the German army back to Berlin - albeit with the largest armoured battle in history taking place along the way at Kursk, in which half a million soldiers were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk
I'll reiterate: I'm responding to 69charger's post that we'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans. I believe this to be incredibly delusionary - with no disrespect to the sacrifices made by Americans in the war.
Again, no one that I've seen so far in this thread is down playing the part the Russia played.
I take your point. However, they were also fighting 3/4's of the entire German army.
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/stalingrad/annihilation.aspx
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_stalingrad.htm
exactly, his only point was to downplay the significance of america's involvment in the war. which he admits to marginalizing the americans death. or as he calls "put into prespective"
The Soviet navy lacked ships and warm water ports. The forces of the navy had yet to recover from Tsar Nichola II's ill-advised war with Japan. If Stalin had decided to steam-roll across Europe, he would have been looking across the channel and dreaming of what might be..........just like his buddy Adolf did. The Soviets were not a naval power until the Cold War era.
Not just the death count. But the efforts and their overall significance.
I applaud you on your insightful contribution to this thread. You have made me look at the world and at history in a whole new way. Whilst reading your post I felt the cogs of my mind shift a gear. I owe you an eternal dept for showing me the truth and the light.