Interesting thought I had.

deadnothingbetter

Binaural wrote:

HOWEVER, an please actually read what Im saying, the fact that he does send us to hell counteracts your arguement. Thats like Hitler saying that he did what he did out of love.

God isn't the one who sends us to hell. We are the one's that head that direction. what is hell to you? hell as described in the bible is simply a second death. what does that mean? i have no idea. i just know it's a second death.

libragirl

PJammin' wrote:

i don't care if people mock my Christian beliefs. as i see it, and what i believe, every idle word is taken down by My God. i'm proud to be a Christian and i'll take ALL of the attacks. it actually makes me happy and stronger.

True, it's not like people's mockery is going to affect my beliefs. It was just an observation I wanted to point out.

soulsinging

PJammin' wrote:

i believe it's not:

if you want the answer you'll have to look it up:

Romans 1:20-22

just don't believe, it's as simple as that. just believe in your God. i can accept you feeling that way.

i do. im just saying that's a totally circular argument. christ is lord and so you must believe in him. you must believe in christ becos he is the lord. i admit that the odds of my beliefs being right are no better than anyone else's, but that does not mean i believe them any less fervently. and the point of this was, that your religion IS asking too much when it asks to accept certain very strange ideas. when each spiritual system has pretty much equal odds of truth, why would i pick one of the weirdest ones possible without some very compelling reason. i was asking for that reason. the fact that you believe you're right is not a very compelling reason.

libragirl

vmfury wrote:

Actually, going against the grain, so to speak, leaves you open to mockery.

Well yes I see what you mean...but I was just referring to the fact that christianity being the most practiced religion and therefore i guess the most popular kind of lend it to the negativity towards it.

Binaural

deadnothingbetter wrote:

God isn't the one who sends us to hell. We are the one's that head that direction. what is hell to you? hell as described in the bible is simply a second death. what does that mean? i have no idea. i just know it's a second death.

Exactly its a story aimed to scare people, of course its not specific, of course its open to interpretation thats what makes it so effective.

soulsinging

PJammin' wrote:

what you fail to understand is you're basically DENYING the scourging and crucification of GOD. if you're serving Buddha, then you're serving something that is NOT God, and denying God's life, death, and resurrection for His own creation. it's really not that hard to come to grips with. in my case, anyway.

no, it isn't... if you believe jesus was god. i see scant reason to believe that. so what i am denying is that jesus was anything more more than an exceptional human being. and this still leaves of with the dilemma that if god is going to condemn me to hell becos i am a bit skeptical when it comes to basing my entire life on one out of thousands of ancient texts that purport to tell the truth about god, then i'd just as soon be in hell than be with such an unforgiving and petty creator. many grow up in society's where they have never even heard the name jesus. does god love these people less becos they "turned their backs on his suffering" by having the misfortune of being born in sub-saharan africa? are white europeans more important to god than native pygmies?

soulsinging

PJammin' wrote:

this book is true because it's God's Word and it's also credited as a historical document.

so is the iliad. do you also believe zeus rules the world from atop mt. olympus? that achilles was also a god, just like jesus? that apollo helped sway the war for the greeks?

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

this explains nothing. you say people cannot get into heaven without accepting jesus, this is the core of your belief system is it not?

yes you are right.

thus, you are saying god's love and acceptance is conditioned upon your willingness to bow down and worship jesus or god himself. that is not unconditional love. if i offer you a snack but say you have to kiss my ring and swear allegiance first, how is that not a condition? if that is not a condition, then your religion offers nothing except for one path to having a closer relationship with god, one path out of many possibilities.

you are trying too hard to make sense of this. but it's important for you to realize that just like trying to argue with the dalai lama for reasons that you don't accept his teachings it's the same way with the bible. you're really only putting yourself to challenging a belief. you'll gain nothing out of it. just take it as it is, and you either believe it or you don't. the most reasonable argument for not believing it is, I can't see God so I don't believe in him. that's about as reasonable as it can get.

but to answer your comment. God isn't offering us a snack but on the condition that we swear allegiance first. The Bible says that sin cannot enter or see heaven. Sin is what interfere's with our chances of getting their. sin is unbelief. sin is sadness, sorrow, shame, pride, egocentricism, jealousy, anger, and things of that sort. but as you know very well the only way to get rid of these thigns is to be justified through Christ's blood. it's what the laws of nature have taken away from us. we blame God for this, but it's not God who makes it this way. It's sin. for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

deadnothingbetter

Binaural wrote:

Exactly its a story aimed to scare people, of course its not specific, of course its open to interpretation thats what makes it so effective.

so what's your point?

Binaural

deadnothingbetter wrote:

so what's your point?

1) Thats not love
2) It doesn't exactly give the impression of a benevolant god
3) I forgot to say fictional story

Ahnimus

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, see that's what i am trying to make you understand that the bible does not say this. he is not a black and white God. you can sin and sin and sin and sin but God's love will still accept you. and now to avoid every other confusion let me make this clear. the only way you can be justified is through jesus blood because he is the one who has done our errors right. is that to say that we should keep doing wrong? no. that is why it's required to have faith in Christ so that we will no longer live to sin but live to goodness.

Yes you can sin, but you must repent and have faith. It is conditional.

The bible teaches values in some twisted mythological sense that's been developed over a millenium by many different people. It's an absolute work of mythology. I do not need faith in Christ or to read the necronomicon to live happily, love other people and understand them. In-fact I feel I have a better grasp on understanding others through empirical research than I ever got from Sunday school. You only understand one method of perception, through the eyes of the Bible, I've been there and done that. All that is left is threat of the after-life and that is the condition we are discussing. The blind faith in Jesus Christ lest ye burn in hell. And that is exactly what you repeatedly say.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yes you are right. you are trying too hard to make sense of this. but it's important for you to realize that just like trying to argue with the dalai lama for reasons that you don't accept his teachings it's the same way with the bible. you're really only putting yourself to challenging a belief. you'll gain nothing out of it. just take it as it is, and you either believe it or you don't. the most reasonable argument for not believing it is, I can't see God so I don't believe in him. that's about as reasonable as it can get.

but to answer your comment. God isn't offering us a snack but on the condition that we swear allegiance first. The Bible says that sin cannot enter or see heaven. Sin is what interfere's with our chances of getting their. sin is unbelief. sin is sadness, sorrow, shame, pride, egocentricism, jealousy, anger, and things of that sort. but as you know very well the only way to get rid of these thigns is to be justified through Christ's blood. it's what the laws of nature have taken away from us. we blame God for this, but it's not God who makes it this way. It's sin. for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

i think the most reasonable argument against christianity is that there is no way i can accept a god that petty and small. for god to have created something as vast as the universe, he must not be subject to such human limitations as vanity. if god wanted to let you into heaven, he could just do it. he doesn't need some blood nonsense. he is GOD. he created the universe and can do whatever the hell he pleases with it. he could let sin into heaven, or he could forgive it himself at the pearly gates, or he could change his mind and make certain things not sinful. he is not bound by rules.

deadnothingbetter

Binaural wrote:

1) Thats not love
2) It doesn't exactly give the impression of a benevolant god
3) I forgot to say fictional story

???? i don't get it. it's not love because the bible is open to interpretation? it's not the impression of a benevolent god because it's not specific?? i'm not understanding what you're saying. maybe we sort of deviated from the original conversation.

i'm mean really, all your doing is condradicting the scriptures and finding reasons why it wouldn't make sense to you. i mean it doens't make sense to me but if it makes sense for you then go ahead. i've explained to you how the God of the Bible does not set conditional standards of love. you're saying why you don't believe it but in all honesty you're not making any sense to me. but i'm sure it does for you so i'll respect that.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

i think the most reasonable argument against christianity is that there is no way i can accept a god that petty and small.

ok good enough. it's pretty much the same thing. just have in mind i respect your beliefs and we all respect our beliefs so we'll all live happy.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

ok good enough. it's pretty much the same thing. just have in mind i respect your beliefs and we all respect our beliefs so we'll all live happy.

crap, i was afraid you'd quote me before i edited in:

for god to have created something as vast as the universe, he must not be subject to such human limitations as vanity. if god wanted to let you into heaven, he could just do it. he doesn't need some blood nonsense. he is GOD. he created the universe and can do whatever the hell he pleases with it. he could let sin into heaven, or he could forgive it himself at the pearly gates, or he could change his mind and make certain things not sinful. he is not bound by rules.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes you can sin, but you must repent and have faith. It is conditional.

The bible teaches values in some twisted mythological sense that's been developed over a millenium by many different people. It's an absolute work of mythology. I do not need faith in Christ or to read the necronomicon to live happily, love other people and understand them. In-fact I feel I have a better grasp on understanding others through empirical research than I ever got from Sunday school. You only understand one method of perception, through the eyes of the Bible, I've been there and done that. All that is left is threat of the after-life and that is the condition we are discussing. The blind faith in Jesus Christ lest ye burn in hell. And that is exactly what you repeatedly say.

well, you're certainly not understanding me yea even though through your emphatic empirical research. hey but listen we will all keep sinning. all of us, even me. even billy graham. but that's not the point. your argument is against the teaching that salvation is accomplished through Jesus Christ which i totally respect. i mean again we all have our beliefs. i'm only sharing mine because you guys keep asking me. so even though my perception is through the eyes of the bible yours is through a mundaine outlook of vain human understanding. so while you're only trying to justify yourself in regards to the afterlife go right ahead. it's your call. if you're trying to change my beliefs, it's not going to happen. just like i can't change yours. but if you want to ask me and know these things i'll be glad to answer. so blind or whatnot... what's the difference? they're beliefs just like yours.

Ahnimus

deadnothingbetter wrote:

just take it as it is, and you either believe it or you don't. the most reasonable argument for not believing it is, I can't see God so I don't believe in him. that's about as reasonable as it can get.

This argument is far more reasonable

"just take it as it is, and you either believe it or you don't.

And what per se causes this belief or lack of belief?

http://m-w.com/dictionary/will

To suggest that a person has the ability to will something different than the will they have is unreasonable. This will can not be the cause of the will. Whether the will is caused by some determinant, indeterminant or chaotic system, the will is consequently determined by a factor that is beyond the control of the will.

A person cannot will to belief in God if their will is to atheism. Just as a homosexual cannot simply decide to be straight, it is against their will. Ultimately the concepts of paths to good and evil and the free-will to choose a path fall apart with this argument that will cannot determine it's self. The idea of a supreme entity who holds individuals morally accountable to factors beyond their control and moreover banishes them for eternity becomes unreasonable.

Ahnimus

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, you're certainly not understanding me yea even though through your emphatic empirical research. hey but listen we will all keep sinning. all of us, even me. even billy graham. but that's not the point. your argument is against the teaching that salvation is accomplished through Jesus Christ which i totally respect. i mean again we all have our beliefs. i'm only sharing mine because you guys keep asking me. so even though my perception is through the eyes of the bible yours is through a mundaine outlook of vain human understanding. so while you're only trying to justify yourself in regards to the afterlife go right ahead. it's your call. if you're trying to change my beliefs, it's not going to happen. just like i can't change yours. but if you want to ask me and know these things i'll be glad to answer. so blind or whatnot... what's the difference? they're beliefs just like yours.

Well, I think the point is you keep saying God's love is unconditional and clearly it is not. That is the point that was trying to be made to you.

But you are absolutely correct. Until you expand your horizons you will ultimately view things as you do. That goes for me as well. Until I subject myself to alternative understandings I will only know what I know. However, I've already read the Bible.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

crap, i was afraid you'd quote me before i edited in:

for god to have created something as vast as the universe, he must not be subject to such human limitations as vanity. if god wanted to let you into heaven, he could just do it. he doesn't need some blood nonsense. he is GOD. he created the universe and can do whatever the hell he pleases with it. he could let sin into heaven, or he could forgive it himself at the pearly gates, or he could change his mind and make certain things not sinful. he is not bound by rules.

this makes complete sense. and wow have i not heard a theological response as reasonable as this. thank you because this clears a lot for me.

i would like to believe the same. it makes complete sense. i mean, he's god. but then again realizing what sin is really, it is the oppossitte of life. sin can't exist in heaven. that is it's nature. sin is like a false identity. something that we humans shouldn't be. so while God can do anything he can't interfere in our choices either. if we don't believe in God or heaven and hell how then is he going to get us there? by force? well even if he would we would die. see nature is like a representation of the spiritual things. in nature when our bodies are not acostumed to different climates or viruses we are not immune to it. we would then get sick and if not tended to, eventually not survive. the same with the spiritual things our souls are not acostumed to different spiritual climate changes. as in the days of Moses, when he walked up to the mountain to speak with God he was only allowed to see the back of God because God's glory was to powerful for Moses to contain. so that would mean if Moses would have seen the face of God he would've died. why? because of Moses' sinful nature. so this legitimizes the purpose for Jesus and his plan to redeem humanity. because the idea of God was very hostile and strange to us Christ came to be a representation of him. He came to bring us to the knowledge and understanding of God. No one cannot understand or see God if not through Jesus Christ.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, I think the point is you keep saying God's love is unconditional and clearly it is not. That is the point that was trying to be made to you.

I understand and I'm explaining this very clearly how God's love is unconditional but for whatever reasons that don't make sense to me I cannot seem to explain it effectively. You're saying that clearly it is not. I have not found enough reason to understand why it's not. I've given reasons to show that it is, although it be few.

Your perspective is that God wants you to worship him and him alone and if not you are going to hell. But although that maybe your perspective it is not the teachngs the Bible gives us.