Interesting thought I had.

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  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    catefrances wrote:
    ah yes the mocking of homosexuals and religion. guess i should answer it then.
    religion is an institution. homsexuality is a personal thing. when you mock or attack homosexuality you are attacking the individual in my opinion. an institution can withstand the pettiness of being mocked.

    Good answer, also, religions have a tendency to derogate anyone who does not share their beliefs. HOmosexuals, on the other hand, are more likely to be happy to live and let live.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    "Everything happens through immutable laws, ...everything is necessary... There are, some persons say, some events which are necessary and others which are not. It would be very comic that one part of the world was arranged, and the other were not; that one part of what happens had to happen and that another part of what happens did not have to happen. If one looks closely at it, one sees that the doctrine contrary to that of destiny is absurd; but there are many people destined to reason badly; others not to reason at all; others to persecute those who reason." - Voltaire
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    If you fart under the covers and your wife is not there to behold it, does it make a smell?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    If you fart under the covers and your wife is not there to behold it, does it make a smell?
    not every fart smells
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    not every fart smells

    If there is hydrogen sulfide in the fart it smells. ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    lol :D
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • scw156
    scw156 Posts: 442
    PJammin' wrote:
    i'll say it before and i'll say it again. God IS love. there wouldn't even be love in the first place without God. also, God's love IS unconditional. the problem is if you're denying Jesus and also living in sin, you're following the devil, you're NOT God's child anymore. God is free from you because, you see, YOU'RE NOT HIS. you're a child of the devil; and if you're a child of the devil, you'll take residence in hell with your parent, the devil. really, it's simple. :)

    thats the first thing I think you've ever said on here that makes sense to me

    i don't personally think like that but at least its 1+1=2

    edit: even though TECHNICALLY we are still his children because he created us...


    i'm still pickin' up what you're layin' down
    The Sentence Below Is True
    The Sentence Above Is False
  • korby
    korby Posts: 298
    its not interesting. why is this thread keep appearing ?
    its ok
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    so are we talking about entering into heaven unconditionally? or are we talking about unconditional love?

    i dont see how the two are separable. if you love them unconditionally, why would you deny them entry into your paradise? if you give me the sin nonsense, we've already covered how god could easily do away with any such requirement of his own volition, or forgive the sins. if you say becos we rejected him, we're again getting back to conditions on his love... only if you love him first.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    PJammin' wrote:
    i'll say it before and i'll say it again. God IS love. there wouldn't even be love in the first place without God. also, God's love IS unconditional. the problem is if you're denying Jesus and also living in sin, you're following the devil, you're NOT God's child anymore. God is free from you because, you see, YOU'RE NOT HIS. you're a child of the devil; and if you're a child of the devil, you'll take residence in hell with your parent, the devil. really, it's simple. :)

    not at all, becos if god loves you so much, why is he so unwilling to pull some strings to get you out? and what if you're not sinning... what if your only sin is you were born in a pigmy tribe and worship nature, or born in rural india where all you know is hinduism, or are born in iraq and learn aboubout allah? you're not rejecting god in any of those instances... you're embracing him in a different manner. again, why is jesus a condition? god is all-powerful and almighty, surely he can get you into heaven without jesus if your life is not sinful. if the only sin you commit is that you were born in a culture where you were unaware of jesus or don't understand what he supposedly represents, that's too much for god to forgive? why? otherwise it's like going to hell on a technicality.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    i'm sorry but that's the way it is. at least for the bible that's the way it is, i mean, deny it all you want. but see in the garden of eden when man sinned we gave our powers to the devil. so the devil had taken control of our minds and ultimately our lives. God couldn't take it back because there had to be a ransom. again the wages of sin is death. we had to die. that's the way it was going to be. because that is the nature of sin, it vanishes. it is destined to nonexistence. God couldn't absolve sin and make it disappear because our minds didn't allow him to. so it was important that a man had to accomplish a perfect life to bring man back to it's primary purpose. the deaht of Christ is very important in a christian life because it was the only way to rescue us from death. Yes God would've been able to take sin. Like in the case when God banished adam and eve from the garden he said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. HE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO REACH OUT HIS HAND AND TAKE ALSO FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER."23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden..." which means that if he would've stayed there he would've lived forever but would not have access to God's glory. in the same way if God were to absolve our sins right here and now, which he can, we still wouldn't receive God's purpose for us to share in his glory. This would mean that we would live forever but would still be held captives to the devil.

    this is a circular theological argument... you're attempting to use biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    now here you are misunderstanding me. first of all, believing in Christ accomplishes your act of worship. now secondly and most importantly i was making reference to humanity's misunderstnading of the scriptures. but i've explained this so many times and yet no one has been able to explain how God's love is conditional. it's like your saying God's love is conditional because it is.

    God loves us undoubtedly because we are his creation. So in that case he has prepared so many means for us to defeat death, becuase death is an unatural course that we have taken.

    we have explained endlessly how god's love is conditional. you have been unable to rebut that assertion. even going back to original sin, god's love was conditioned. he could have forgiven and forgotten, or simply stripped them of whatever it was they are. he could have banished the devil. he could ahve done any number of things. but he did not. instead, he made his providence dependent upon abject obedience to his whims. that is conditional. everything about christianity is conditional. if his love was unconditional, there would be no need for hell. if his was unconditional, you could get to heaven on your actions and contact with god... you wouldn't have to run through the bureacratic red tape he set up with the bible and jesus to weed out people.
  • scw156
    scw156 Posts: 442
    soulsinging wrote:
    not at all, becos if god loves you so much, why is he so unwilling to pull some strings to get you out? and what if you're not sinning... what if your only sin is you were born in a pigmy tribe and worship nature, or born in rural india where all you know is hinduism, or are born in iraq and learn aboubout allah? you're not rejecting god in any of those instances... you're embracing him in a different manner. again, why is jesus a condition? god is all-powerful and almighty, surely he can get you into heaven without jesus if your life is not sinful. if the only sin you commit is that you were born in a culture where you were unaware of jesus or don't understand what he supposedly represents, that's too much for god to forgive? why? otherwise it's like going to hell on a technicality.


    touché
    The Sentence Below Is True
    The Sentence Above Is False
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    soulsinging wrote:
    i dont see how the two are separable. if you love them unconditionally, why would you deny them entry into your paradise? if you give me the sin nonsense, we've already covered how god could easily do away with any such requirement of his own volition, or forgive the sins. if you say becos we rejected him, we're again getting back to conditions on his love... only if you love him first.
    no, we did not cover how god could do away with sin of his own volition. you did, maybe, but i didn't really agree with you on that part. sin is something that is there and will remain there because we allow it to remain. so in the case of God doing away with sin, technically, he already has at the cross. but it is us who remain in it. so no this doesn't quite clear up the idea that his love is conditional. i really don't know why you are so caught up with the idea that God hates us. that is a vain argument and doesn't avail anything
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If there is hydrogen sulfide in the fart it smells. ;)
    if i don't smell the fart it's ok with me.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    soulsinging wrote:
    this is a circular theological argument... you're attempting to use biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right.
    using biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right? i'm not following...
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    no, we did not cover how god could do away with sin of his own volition. you did, maybe, but i didn't really agree with you on that part. sin is something that is there and will remain there because we allow it to remain. so in the case of God doing away with sin, technically, he already has at the cross. but it is us who remain in it. so no this doesn't quite clear up the idea that his love is conditional. i really don't know why you are so caught up with the idea that God hates us. that is a vain argument and doesn't avail anything

    i don't think he hates us, i think your god is very arbitrary and petty. i discussed how anything is possible for god, including absolving people of their sins without having to do the whole jesus magic thing. if god wanted to forgive sins, it could just be done. otherwise, you're placing arbitrary limits on god. perhaps we remain in it, but he has the power to remove it from us after we die. and he has the power to do that independent of jesus. thus, making jesus some arbitrary gatekeeper/hoop to jump through to have your sins forgiven is on its face placing conditions on god's love for us. he only loves us unconditionally if we jump through the jesus hoop. otherwise, maybe he loves us, but a little bit less than the jesus people, becos he lets them into heaven but refuses to absolve us of our sins just becos we didn't adhere to the red tape and file our jesus paperwork for absolution.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    soulsinging wrote:
    we have explained endlessly how god's love is conditional. you have been unable to rebut that assertion. even going back to original sin, god's love was conditioned. he could have forgiven and forgotten, or simply stripped them of whatever it was they are. he could have banished the devil. he could ahve done any number of things. but he did not. instead, he made his providence dependent upon abject obedience to his whims. that is conditional. everything about christianity is conditional. if his love was unconditional, there would be no need for hell. if his was unconditional, you could get to heaven on your actions and contact with god... you wouldn't have to run through the bureacratic red tape he set up with the bible and jesus to weed out people.
    well if you have endlessly explained how god's love is conditional i too have endlessly explained why it's not. you're only basing your argument because of hell. but as i've said before sin is the opposite of life... when we speak of hell we speak of the second death. if sin is the opposite of life that what happens to those who reap corruptible acts, it vanishes, it dies, it goes to hell. if God were to change this it would be unfair. what of the bad that has happened in life?? where is justice? for many of us hell sounds like a bad place when it's actually a good place. it is a form of justice. it is God's wrath against the unjustices caused in our lives. put however you want to put it this is really what it means. it's not an argument. it's a story. a story that the bible speaks of. a story which i believe. if i have gone back and forth even going back to original sin it is important to do so when we are speaking of this topic. and i have more than effectively rebutted the assertion, you're just not following. of course he could have stripped them of whatever it was they were but humanity chose not to follow that route. they went on doing the very same thing of living in sin again. of course he could've banished the devil and he already did at the cross. so it is important for hell to be there, so there could be justice against sin. and he certainly can forgive and forget but how is that possible if we don't believe? he will not do that if we are not accepting and convicted that we have sinned.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    lucylespian wrote:
    Good answer, also, religions have a tendency to derogate anyone who does not share their beliefs. HOmosexuals, on the other hand, are more likely to be happy to live and let live.

    just thankful to not be stoned by hateful people and strung up on a fence somewhere.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    using biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right? i'm not following...

    you're saying the biblical account of god is accurate becos it's in the bible. that's circular. you say "i know this is god's nature becos that's how he is in the bible, and we know the bible is an accurate description of god becos the bible says so." you're saying we should believe in the bible, becos if we believe in the bible then we will see that the bible is right about god. that's like saying you should like pearl jam, becos if you like pearl jam then you will realize how good they are. it's not a freestanding argument, it only prevails if you already subscribe to the premise that the bible is true.

    it just seems to me like you're placing a lot of limits on what god can and cannot do. my god has no limits or boundaries.

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