how can you say this without simultaneously laughing at yourself and everyone else involved in this discussion? one liter-cola coming up.
you cannot describe determinism, what allows us to have life, what causes [has caused] it or anything about it.
furthermore, reality is beyond description, which i grant supports divinity more than randomness, but none-the-less is irrelevant as you have spoken of it.
where is your ultimate proof that the universe is governed by a force or multiple forces of whole-determination?
there is no proof. thus nobody is here backing him.
I do not need to prove the origins of the universe. That is way beyond our scope as human beings existing in the macro-level of the universe. A person does not exist without first being conceived by their parents, our entire existance as individuals is dependant on physical determinants, everything is unless you choose to ignore the causes.
youre ignoring the effects as much as i am ignoring the causes, as again i am working off of your comments. sure, there is some cause for everything, but no proof as to the nature of that cause, be it random, divine, or other.
your example about tossing a coin is inconsistent also, since coins are inanimate and hence do not apply to free-will. the application of this theory to that type of example is that human-beings created coins to exchange as pure value, which may or may not have been an inevitable event in the course of Nature--
im really trying to figure you out here a bit Ahnimus, but youre over-playing devil's advocate and im getting a bit frustrated. do you believe civilization is destined for a great economic collapse?
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
I have described it to you, for 9,000 years determinism has been described. Choosing to go hungry is a function of the human condition as a result of social interplay. We go hungry so we do not steal and suffer a life in prison. We imprison people so they will not steal from us. There is causality for everything. The tennis ball is one of the simplest examples. Everything around you has cause, you are where you are now because of prior causes, that's undeniable. Everything we experience is caused by activity in the brain, that's a proven fact, just remove your brain or damage it and that will be apparent. You cannot describe one thing that knowingly has no cause, everything we know the origin of has a cause. Then there is the unknown to which we haven't discovered the causes for, but it would be ridiculous to suppose that means we have free-will, simply because we don't know the cause of the universe. I've described determinism as a cause and effect relationship, all of science is deterministic and it is the basis for most of our understanding of reality, reality is deterministic. A coin toss is a perfect example of what appears to be random but is in-fact not, and the coin in no way, shape or form has free-will. Part of debating is you being able to describe your position, you must quantify free-will and explain it for this to be a debate, or else you are simply choosing ignorance, you are simply choosing to ignore the definitions, descriptions and causes I've explained.
are you crazy? ok; suppose i knew i wouldn't get caught. where does that put your theory? keep in mind the prisons are full of people who stole so this social interplay doesn't work. the threat of prison doesn't deter as proven by overcrowded prisons.
I do not need to prove the origins of the universe. That is way beyond our scope as human beings existing in the macro-level of the universe. A person does not exist without first being conceived by their parents, our entire existance as individuals is dependant on physical determinants, everything is unless you choose to ignore the causes.
nice dodge. now things are way beyond the scope as human beings. you take the cake dude.
any chance the name ahnimus is derived from the word anus? just curious...
Uh no, it's derived from the greek philosophy with an H added. Animus is the personality beneath the social persona. You may know that people behave differently depending on the individuals that surround them, but beneath that is their Animus, the real person, not the mask.
It's also from Jungian Psychology, in Jung's psychology the Animus is the inner masculinity in women, while the Anima is the inner femininity in men. I chose the name for it being synonymous with Animosity and used it as a Counter-Strike and World of Warcraft alias, but I learned of the Greek Philosophy and kept it for use on this forum.
Any chance that you are just being a fucking prick?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
This is a very important issue though. Especially in-terms of God and morality. If free-will does not exist, good and evil cannot exist and the classical concept of God must be false.
I know it's the least ideal, shittiest possible version of reality and I wish it weren't so in many ways.
But I'm not the type to deny reality. Gay people are gay because they are determined to be gay by physical laws, by physical determination.
one example, which is questionable, but i wont refute. but that is a grey area in terms of "willingness". the choice does exist for homosexuals, as well as heterosexuals, to choose abstinence, ergo, yet again, whatever particular physical determinates [circumstances] exist can be overcome.
this is an effect of consciousness, which you seem to love to avoid.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
one example, which is questionable, but i wont refute. but that is a grey area in terms of "willingness". the choice does exist for homosexuals, as well as heterosexuals, to choose abstinence, ergo, yet again, whatever particular physical determinates [circumstances] exist can be overcome.
this is an effect of consciousness, which you seem to love to avoid.
They can choose abstinence but they cannot choose their primary sexual drive. Also without abstinence they cannot choose abstinence, abstinence also acts as a determinant. Any possible choice in an array of choices, is also a determinant. Whether a choice is possible or not is the base determinant in our ability to make those choices. Whichever choice we ultimately make is the result of other determinants.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
any chance the name ahnimus is derived from the word anus? just curious...
soul. In one sense, the principle of life, defined as what makes living things alive. The Greek word for 'alive', like the equivalent Latin word 'animatus' and its English derivative 'animate' is etymologically the same as 'ensouled'; this is the ancient connection between the ideas of soul and life. Plato presumably following Socrates , both identified the soul with the person who reasons, decides and acts, and assumed that this person or soul is not the familiar creature of flesh and blood but rather the incorporeal occupant and director of, even prisoner in, that corporeal being.
I set out to get this book "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick. I walk 3 blocks to the mall, I go into Coles book store and I ask "Do you have this book?" and they say "No, it's out of print." and I say "Well, if I'd known that I wouldn't have walked over here."
See, the knowledge of the existence of this book and the information it contains causes me to want to obtain this book. Knowing that the closest book store is Coles and that Coles and Chapters receive books from the same source is the primary determinant to go to that particular Coles store. Not knowing the book is out of print caused me to go there to look for it.
Then the employee says "That's why we have indigo.ca where you can check availability and order books to enhance the customer 'experience'" Now, knowing that I can do this online has determined my choice to check product online and order it that way instead of wasting time walking to the mall. Knowing that the book is also out of print caused me to look elsewhere for second-hand copies, and this caused me to find a second-hand copy, which I received in the mail today.
That's determinism at work, knowledge is power as the old saying goes. My choices were entirely dependant on my knowledge of the choices. And you can see that anyone with my knowledge would have made the same choices.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
soul. In one sense, the principle of life, defined as what makes living things alive. The Greek word for 'alive', like the equivalent Latin word 'animatus' and its English derivative 'animate' is etymologically the same as 'ensouled'; this is the ancient connection between the ideas of soul and life. Plato presumably following Socrates , both identified the soul with the person who reasons, decides and acts, and assumed that this person or soul is not the familiar creature of flesh and blood but rather the incorporeal occupant and director of, even prisoner in, that corporeal being.
I mentioned Elan Vital earlier. You should check it out. It's the idea that life cannot exist without a soul, because biologists at the time had limited knowledge about macromolecules. That whole concept has since been proven as false.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
are you crazy? ok; suppose i knew i wouldn't get caught. where does that put your theory? keep in mind the prisons are full of people who stole so this social interplay doesn't work. the threat of prison doesn't deter as proven by overcrowded prisons.
That is quite often the case, as with Richard Loeb and Nathan Leopold. Loeb with 210 IQ believed that he could mastermind the perfect crime and would never be caught be the intellectually inferior justice system. Organized crime and premiditated murder operate on this same assumption of superiority.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I mentioned Elan Vital earlier. You should check it out. It's the idea that life cannot exist without a soul, because biologists at the time had limited knowledge about macromolecules. That whole concept has since been proven as false.
i've got to find the paper but another scientist claims he recorded the soul leaving the body at the time of death. i believe it was recorded by a slight spike in radiation but i don't fully remember.
so tell me; what makes us different? why don't people think the same if the mechanics are the same. why are there different opinions if everyone works under the same science and principles?
nice dodge. now things are way beyond the scope as human beings. you take the cake dude.
You still aren't providing any evidence or logic for what you believe. You are accusing me of dodging, but you haven't said a word about free-will except that you have it. Your entire stratagy has been to comment on my abilities or to try and find holes in my point of view. That's not a debate friend, that's an interrogation. You are looking for a way to break me down to invalidate my point of view, but even if you could break me down, which you can't, it would not invalidate my point of view. Your view is invalidated by your inability to explain it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
They can choose abstinence but they cannot choose their primary sexual drive. Also without abstinence they cannot choose abstinence, abstinence also acts as a determinant. Any possible choice in an array of choices, is also a determinant. Whether a choice is possible or not is the base determinant in our ability to make those choices. Whichever choice we ultimately make is the result of other determinants.
right--i comprehend that this is what youve been arguing for, i just dont believe. i believe i'll die. i believe in my heart as my best guide in life. beyond that, i dont believe in much. this was expressed in one of my first posts in this thread, because to believe in things is to limit the scope of possibilities surrounding one's life, which thus ultimately determines one's fate into a particular path.
i do think there are choices outside the realm of "determinates"; and i know you cant prove to me otherwise. YOU are ignoring my argument based on predetermined conditions youve set around yourself. how do you say: the suspense of judgement is vital, and you seem to be lacking.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
i've got to find the paper but another scientist claims he recorded the soul leaving the body at the time of death. i believe it was recorded by a slight spike in radiation but i don't fully remember.
so tell me; what makes us different? why don't people think the same if the mechanics are the same. why are there different opinions if everyone works under the same science and principles?
Na+/K+ pump emits calcium and potassium isotopes from the brain. People have tried to say this is psionic matter and explains telekenesis and other phenomena, but they were so quick to jump to these conclusions that they ignored the half-life of the isotopes which is roughly 300 milliseconds. There is no way this matter can be picked up by a psychic 3 weeks later.
Don't believe all the shit you read. Radiation decays, it can't be a soul, uless the sould decays, then it defeats the purpose of what you are trying to prove.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You still aren't providing any evidence or logic for what you believe. You are accusing me of dodging, but you haven't said a word about free-will except that you have it. Your entire stratagy has been to comment on my abilities or to try and find holes in my point of view. That's not a debate friend, that's an interrogation. You are looking for a way to break me down to invalidate my point of view, but even if you could break me down, which you can't, it would not invalidate my point of view. Your view is invalidated by your inability to explain it.
i have faith in what i believe. i thought we established that. i gave examples of free will but here's another.
many years ago i searched my entire apartment for enough change to buy a pack of cigarettes. i went to the corner gas station and while standing in line; the person in front of me dropped a $20 bill on the floor as they pulled their hand out of their pocket. no one saw it and it was before all these security cameras became popular. i picked up the bill and still no one noticed. i could have easily stepped to the counter and paid for my cigarettes with the $20. instead; i said excuse me; you dropped this. you'll never know how badly i needed that $20 but i chose to return it. OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
I set out to get this book "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick. I walk 3 blocks to the mall, I go into Coles book store and I ask "Do you have this book?" and they say "No, it's out of print." and I say "Well, if I'd known that I wouldn't have walked over here."
See, the knowledge of the existence of this book and the information it contains causes me to want to obtain this book. Knowing that the closest book store is Coles and that Coles and Chapters receive books from the same source is the primary determinant to go to that particular Coles store. Not knowing the book is out of print caused me to go there to look for it.
Then the employee says "That's why we have indigo.ca where you can check availability and order books to enhance the customer 'experience'" Now, knowing that I can do this online has determined my choice to check product online and order it that way instead of wasting time walking to the mall. Knowing that the book is also out of print caused me to look elsewhere for second-hand copies, and this caused me to find a second-hand copy, which I received in the mail today.
That's determinism at work, knowledge is power as the old saying goes. My choices were entirely dependant on my knowledge of the choices. And you can see that anyone with my knowledge would have made the same choices.
again youre generalizing from specific examples, while the issues under review here are more universal. the fact that forces exist which exert [effect] influence upon whatever choices exist for whatever "beings" [consciousness?] that exist neither proves determinism nor disproves "FREE-will", but merely demonstrates that levels of determination do surround most events of life.
but how about the fact of precedents? is the US Constitution a product of determinism? by your logic there should never be revolutions, never anyone who steps aside from the past and creates change(s), because, based on previous causes, everyone prior was determined to behave in a certain way--but that is not the reality of life. changes occur daily, and while you might say Nature is determined to do so, you cannot claim that ALL of the means through which She changes are predetermined, because variables exist, anomolies occur, and new causes are created from old effects.
i think youre a brick wall still, and that is not a compliment.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
i have faith in what i believe. i thought we established that. i gave examples of free will but here's another.
many years ago i searched my entire apartment for enough change to buy a pack of cigarettes. i went to the corner gas station and while standing in line; the person in front of me dropped a $20 bill on the floor as they pulled their hand out of their pocket. no one saw it and it was before all these security cameras became popular. i picked up the bill and still no one noticed. i could have easily stepped to the counter and paid for my cigarettes with the $20. instead; i said excuse me; you dropped this. you'll never know how badly i needed that $20 but i chose to return it. OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
I've made the same choices, but this is not evidence of free-will, this is merely evidence of will. As you initially stated, you have "Faith" in your belief, and faith is a belief in something that has no evidence. So you've fully admitted that you cannot provide evidence for your belief. Then you are only looking to invalidate mine, because my view challenges yours, the view you are comfortable with, because it paints a nice ideal picture of reality, and if you are forced to abandon your belief in free-will, then the very foundation of your other beliefs are challenged and that is uncomfortable to you. But none of that matters, because it doesn't change reality, reality is, you don't have free-will. You choose to deny it, and it's not your free-will that causes you to make that choice, but rather your comfort levels with the two concepts. Because as you've said, I have evidence and you do not, your belief is absolute speculation and an ingorance of known truths. Now you will move on to say that nothing is absolute and attempt to invalidate all of reality in order to rationalize your beliefs.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
again youre generalizing from specific examples, while the issues under review here are more universal. the fact that forces exist which exert [effect] influence upon whatever choices exist for whatever "beings" [consciousness?] that exist neither proves determinism nor disproves "FREE-will", but merely demonstrates that levels of determination do surround most events of life.
but how about the fact of precedents? is the US Constitution a product of determinism? by your logic there should never be revolutions, never anyone who steps aside from the past and creates change(s), because, based on previous causes, everyone prior was determined to behave in a certain way--but that is not the reality of life. changes occur daily, and while you might say Nature is determined to do so, you cannot claim that ALL of the means through which She changes are predetermined, because variables exist, anomolies occur, and new causes are created from old effects.
i think youre a brick wall still, and that is not a compliment.
The field of socio-biology explores the darwinian evolution of society and has picked up a lot of momentum. It tests a theory that variation occurs in society, a person will have a thought, due to other causes and if that thought is benneficial to society it will be selected for. Nothing amazing or mysterious about it really, it's the same basic mechanism that drives everything else.
Now you acknowledge determinism to a degree and you don't deny the evidence is there, but you still haven't provided real evidence for free-will, that is still speculation, in the absence of speculation all there is, is determinism.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I have explained it, and you can go back to Democritus, long before Christianity or any concept of free-will and find explanations. Currently there are hundreds of authored explanations of determinism. Many attempt at free-will, but in the process, simply describe other determinants.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
yes chances are really good in fact...thanks for the lesson i'll shut up now.
this is starting to get like the weather channel with the same old presenter.
please provide an ad break occassionally to keep us all from nodding off.
AAAHHH!!! What is the point of arguing over this?! If somebody doesn't believe something, quit trying to make them believe it by arguing!! What's the point???
God cannot be proved by science, it just isn't going to happen. Some people can't understand having faith in something they can't see, and some people can't understand in NOT believing that there is a God. But it's wrong to try to argue somebody into believing something, not to mention stupid.
.
.
.
.
Rant over.
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
I've been reading the last few pages and I'd just like to say this. I read another thread that ended in a free-will debate with ffg who gave a philosophical explanation of why we have free-will, I didn't understand everything. But I do think we have free-will. On a scientific basis for example. I firmly trust (let's even say, believe in) darwinian evolution. It's basic principle is based on luck and randomness. Punctual mutations are accidents wich happen all the time in a randomn fashion. At least there have been no studies to state otherwise.
And if there is luck that leaves a place for free-will.
I also believe our universe is infinite. And (I'm not really a pro on cosmology), if a universe is infinite it is not determnistic, I think.
The field of socio-biology explores the darwinian evolution of society and has picked up a lot of momentum. It tests a theory that variation occurs in society, a person will have a thought, due to other causes and if that thought is benneficial to society it will be selected for. Nothing amazing or mysterious about it really, it's the same basic mechanism that drives everything else.
Now you acknowledge determinism to a degree and you don't deny the evidence is there, but you still haven't provided real evidence for free-will, that is still speculation, in the absence of speculation all there is, is determinism.
where is the absence of speculation?
speculation is perhaps the most powerful determinant in Nature--perhaps creating consciousness where previously only instinct existed/dominated/"determined" as the nature of animation.
i acknowledge determinants, but i refute determinism. not because i wish, but because i can will.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
I've been reading the last few pages and I'd just like to say this. I read another thread that ended in a free-will debate with ffg who gave a philosophical explanation of why we have free-will, I didn't understand everything. But I do think we have free-will. On a scientific basis for example. I firmly trust (let's even say, believe in) darwinian evolution. It's basic principle is based on luck and randomness. Punctual mutations are accidents wich happen all the time in a randomn fashion. At least there have been no studies to state otherwise.
And if there is luck that leaves a place for free-will.
I also believe our universe is infinite. And (I'm not really a pro on cosmology), if a universe is infinite it is not determnistic, I think.
That makes no sense to me. How does the randomness of a coin toss mean the coin has free-will?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Can you see me now
I am myself
Like you somehow
I'll ride the wave
Where it takes me
I'll hold the pain
Release me
there is no proof. thus nobody is here backing him.
youre ignoring the effects as much as i am ignoring the causes, as again i am working off of your comments. sure, there is some cause for everything, but no proof as to the nature of that cause, be it random, divine, or other.
your example about tossing a coin is inconsistent also, since coins are inanimate and hence do not apply to free-will. the application of this theory to that type of example is that human-beings created coins to exchange as pure value, which may or may not have been an inevitable event in the course of Nature--
im really trying to figure you out here a bit Ahnimus, but youre over-playing devil's advocate and im getting a bit frustrated. do you believe civilization is destined for a great economic collapse?
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
are you crazy? ok; suppose i knew i wouldn't get caught. where does that put your theory? keep in mind the prisons are full of people who stole so this social interplay doesn't work. the threat of prison doesn't deter as proven by overcrowded prisons.
hahaha, i know. i think im his biggest supporter here.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
nice dodge. now things are way beyond the scope as human beings. you take the cake dude.
Uh no, it's derived from the greek philosophy with an H added. Animus is the personality beneath the social persona. You may know that people behave differently depending on the individuals that surround them, but beneath that is their Animus, the real person, not the mask.
It's also from Jungian Psychology, in Jung's psychology the Animus is the inner masculinity in women, while the Anima is the inner femininity in men. I chose the name for it being synonymous with Animosity and used it as a Counter-Strike and World of Warcraft alias, but I learned of the Greek Philosophy and kept it for use on this forum.
Any chance that you are just being a fucking prick?
right on.
one example, which is questionable, but i wont refute. but that is a grey area in terms of "willingness". the choice does exist for homosexuals, as well as heterosexuals, to choose abstinence, ergo, yet again, whatever particular physical determinates [circumstances] exist can be overcome.
this is an effect of consciousness, which you seem to love to avoid.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
why for the negativity hippiemom??
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
They can choose abstinence but they cannot choose their primary sexual drive. Also without abstinence they cannot choose abstinence, abstinence also acts as a determinant. Any possible choice in an array of choices, is also a determinant. Whether a choice is possible or not is the base determinant in our ability to make those choices. Whichever choice we ultimately make is the result of other determinants.
soul. In one sense, the principle of life, defined as what makes living things alive. The Greek word for 'alive', like the equivalent Latin word 'animatus' and its English derivative 'animate' is etymologically the same as 'ensouled'; this is the ancient connection between the ideas of soul and life. Plato presumably following Socrates , both identified the soul with the person who reasons, decides and acts, and assumed that this person or soul is not the familiar creature of flesh and blood but rather the incorporeal occupant and director of, even prisoner in, that corporeal being.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I set out to get this book "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick. I walk 3 blocks to the mall, I go into Coles book store and I ask "Do you have this book?" and they say "No, it's out of print." and I say "Well, if I'd known that I wouldn't have walked over here."
See, the knowledge of the existence of this book and the information it contains causes me to want to obtain this book. Knowing that the closest book store is Coles and that Coles and Chapters receive books from the same source is the primary determinant to go to that particular Coles store. Not knowing the book is out of print caused me to go there to look for it.
Then the employee says "That's why we have indigo.ca where you can check availability and order books to enhance the customer 'experience'" Now, knowing that I can do this online has determined my choice to check product online and order it that way instead of wasting time walking to the mall. Knowing that the book is also out of print caused me to look elsewhere for second-hand copies, and this caused me to find a second-hand copy, which I received in the mail today.
That's determinism at work, knowledge is power as the old saying goes. My choices were entirely dependant on my knowledge of the choices. And you can see that anyone with my knowledge would have made the same choices.
I mentioned Elan Vital earlier. You should check it out. It's the idea that life cannot exist without a soul, because biologists at the time had limited knowledge about macromolecules. That whole concept has since been proven as false.
That is quite often the case, as with Richard Loeb and Nathan Leopold. Loeb with 210 IQ believed that he could mastermind the perfect crime and would never be caught be the intellectually inferior justice system. Organized crime and premiditated murder operate on this same assumption of superiority.
i've got to find the paper but another scientist claims he recorded the soul leaving the body at the time of death. i believe it was recorded by a slight spike in radiation but i don't fully remember.
so tell me; what makes us different? why don't people think the same if the mechanics are the same. why are there different opinions if everyone works under the same science and principles?
You still aren't providing any evidence or logic for what you believe. You are accusing me of dodging, but you haven't said a word about free-will except that you have it. Your entire stratagy has been to comment on my abilities or to try and find holes in my point of view. That's not a debate friend, that's an interrogation. You are looking for a way to break me down to invalidate my point of view, but even if you could break me down, which you can't, it would not invalidate my point of view. Your view is invalidated by your inability to explain it.
right--i comprehend that this is what youve been arguing for, i just dont believe. i believe i'll die. i believe in my heart as my best guide in life. beyond that, i dont believe in much. this was expressed in one of my first posts in this thread, because to believe in things is to limit the scope of possibilities surrounding one's life, which thus ultimately determines one's fate into a particular path.
i do think there are choices outside the realm of "determinates"; and i know you cant prove to me otherwise. YOU are ignoring my argument based on predetermined conditions youve set around yourself. how do you say: the suspense of judgement is vital, and you seem to be lacking.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Na+/K+ pump emits calcium and potassium isotopes from the brain. People have tried to say this is psionic matter and explains telekenesis and other phenomena, but they were so quick to jump to these conclusions that they ignored the half-life of the isotopes which is roughly 300 milliseconds. There is no way this matter can be picked up by a psychic 3 weeks later.
Don't believe all the shit you read. Radiation decays, it can't be a soul, uless the sould decays, then it defeats the purpose of what you are trying to prove.
i have faith in what i believe. i thought we established that. i gave examples of free will but here's another.
many years ago i searched my entire apartment for enough change to buy a pack of cigarettes. i went to the corner gas station and while standing in line; the person in front of me dropped a $20 bill on the floor as they pulled their hand out of their pocket. no one saw it and it was before all these security cameras became popular. i picked up the bill and still no one noticed. i could have easily stepped to the counter and paid for my cigarettes with the $20. instead; i said excuse me; you dropped this. you'll never know how badly i needed that $20 but i chose to return it. OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
again youre generalizing from specific examples, while the issues under review here are more universal. the fact that forces exist which exert [effect] influence upon whatever choices exist for whatever "beings" [consciousness?] that exist neither proves determinism nor disproves "FREE-will", but merely demonstrates that levels of determination do surround most events of life.
but how about the fact of precedents? is the US Constitution a product of determinism? by your logic there should never be revolutions, never anyone who steps aside from the past and creates change(s), because, based on previous causes, everyone prior was determined to behave in a certain way--but that is not the reality of life. changes occur daily, and while you might say Nature is determined to do so, you cannot claim that ALL of the means through which She changes are predetermined, because variables exist, anomolies occur, and new causes are created from old effects.
i think youre a brick wall still, and that is not a compliment.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
I've made the same choices, but this is not evidence of free-will, this is merely evidence of will. As you initially stated, you have "Faith" in your belief, and faith is a belief in something that has no evidence. So you've fully admitted that you cannot provide evidence for your belief. Then you are only looking to invalidate mine, because my view challenges yours, the view you are comfortable with, because it paints a nice ideal picture of reality, and if you are forced to abandon your belief in free-will, then the very foundation of your other beliefs are challenged and that is uncomfortable to you. But none of that matters, because it doesn't change reality, reality is, you don't have free-will. You choose to deny it, and it's not your free-will that causes you to make that choice, but rather your comfort levels with the two concepts. Because as you've said, I have evidence and you do not, your belief is absolute speculation and an ingorance of known truths. Now you will move on to say that nothing is absolute and attempt to invalidate all of reality in order to rationalize your beliefs.
Can you see me now
I am myself
Like you somehow
I'll ride the wave
Where it takes me
I'll hold the pain
Release me
so is yours.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
The field of socio-biology explores the darwinian evolution of society and has picked up a lot of momentum. It tests a theory that variation occurs in society, a person will have a thought, due to other causes and if that thought is benneficial to society it will be selected for. Nothing amazing or mysterious about it really, it's the same basic mechanism that drives everything else.
Now you acknowledge determinism to a degree and you don't deny the evidence is there, but you still haven't provided real evidence for free-will, that is still speculation, in the absence of speculation all there is, is determinism.
I have explained it, and you can go back to Democritus, long before Christianity or any concept of free-will and find explanations. Currently there are hundreds of authored explanations of determinism. Many attempt at free-will, but in the process, simply describe other determinants.
this is starting to get like the weather channel with the same old presenter.
please provide an ad break occassionally to keep us all from nodding off.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
God cannot be proved by science, it just isn't going to happen. Some people can't understand having faith in something they can't see, and some people can't understand in NOT believing that there is a God. But it's wrong to try to argue somebody into believing something, not to mention stupid.
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Rant over.
And if there is luck that leaves a place for free-will.
I also believe our universe is infinite. And (I'm not really a pro on cosmology), if a universe is infinite it is not determnistic, I think.
where is the absence of speculation?
speculation is perhaps the most powerful determinant in Nature--perhaps creating consciousness where previously only instinct existed/dominated/"determined" as the nature of animation.
i acknowledge determinants, but i refute determinism. not because i wish, but because i can will.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
That makes no sense to me. How does the randomness of a coin toss mean the coin has free-will?