homosexual isn't in the Bible, but it's not just simply implied either...as i thought i had brought up earlier.
the Trinity isn't implied in the Scriptures, people just misconstrue text. OK
Brought up earlier? Yes. Succesfully argued... hmmm, not really. But nevermind.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
i hope you're still there. i really want to know what you consider your soul. and if the bible is inspired of God; why were the scriptures written before the thought of a bible was conceived? the scriptures are written reports of the experiences of the disiples. translated a few times and different words used; but they still were written before the bible was conceived. did all these disciples predict the bible? i'm not being a smart ass. i'm really interested in your interpretation.
after this i have to go...i've spent way too much time on board last two days
to explain what the soul is i have to use the Bible, obviously.
real quickly though, Definition: In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew ne′phesh and the Greek psy·khe′. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings
What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7 (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne′phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
1*Cor. 15:45 (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)
1*Pet. 3:20 (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khai′, the plural form of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)
Gen. 9:5 [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne′phesh] (Here the soul is said to have blood.)
Josh. 11:11 [Hebrew, ne′phesh] (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)
Where does the Bible say that animals are souls[b/]?
Gen. 1:20,*21,*24,*25 (*In Hebrew the word here is ne′phesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature.”
Lev. 24:17,*18: (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)
Rev. 16:3: (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·khe′. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.)
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. .*.*. The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII,*pp.*449, 450.
“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses .*.*.*, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. .*.*. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.
“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564
"The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254*C.E.] in the East and St.*Augustine [died 430*C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. .*.*. His [Augustine’s] doctrine .*.*. owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp.*452,*454
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. .*.*. Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May*1, 1970, p.*35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? .*.*. Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? .*.*. And does the soul admit of*death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,”*Secs. 64,*105, as published in Great Books of the Western*World (1952), edited by R.*M.*Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp.*223,*245,*246.
“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. .*.*. Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M.*Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.
i really must, again it's been interesting...i'm not trying to avoid any of your questions...i would actually like to continue if anyone wants...but this is never-ending, we all have our beliefs and opinions
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
after this i have to go...i've spent way too much time on board last two days
to explain what the soul is i have to use the Bible, obviously.
real quickly though, Definition: In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew ne′phesh and the Greek psy·khe′. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings
What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7 (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne′phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
1*Cor. 15:45 (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)
1*Pet. 3:20 (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khai′, the plural form of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)
Gen. 9:5 [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne′phesh] (Here the soul is said to have blood.)
Josh. 11:11 [Hebrew, ne′phesh] (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)
Where does the Bible say that animals are souls[b/]?
Gen. 1:20,*21,*24,*25 (*In Hebrew the word here is ne′phesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature.”
Lev. 24:17,*18: (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)
Rev. 16:3: (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·khe′. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.)
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. .*.*. The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII,*pp.*449, 450.
“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses .*.*.*, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. .*.*. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.
“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564
"The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254*C.E.] in the East and St.*Augustine [died 430*C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. .*.*. His [Augustine’s] doctrine .*.*. owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp.*452,*454
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. .*.*. Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May*1, 1970, p.*35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? .*.*. Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? .*.*. And does the soul admit of*death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,”*Secs. 64,*105, as published in Great Books of the Western*World (1952), edited by R.*M.*Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp.*223,*245,*246.
“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. .*.*. Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M.*Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.
i really must, again it's been interesting...i'm not trying to avoid any of your questions...i would actually like to continue if anyone wants...but this is never-ending, we all have our beliefs and opinions
i have to go too. i'm so far behind now. i'd like to continue too. i'll leave you with this thought. i was legally brain dead for 20 minutes during a brain surgery the doctors still say is impossible to survive. i had a brain anneurysm on my temple (olfactory) artery burst. i know what happened to me and proved it to several people. it wasn't the typical experience and in fact; couldn't have been imagined prior.
after this i have to go...i've spent way too much time on board last two days
It looks like you have left without answering the question I've asked twice. And if you have answered it and I've missed it, please point it out to me:
Do you believe that God is omnipresent and therefore present in all things, everywhere and at the same time?
When you have a moment, I'd love to hear your perspective.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It looks like you have left without answering the question I've asked twice. And if you have answered it and I've missed it, please point it out to me:
Do you believe that God is omnipresent and therefore present in all things, everywhere and at the same time?
When you have a moment, I'd love to hear your perspective.
i'm sorry, i did realize that maybe i didn't answer to your liking...therefore, i am back, yet again.
i have never understood how people can feel that God is omnipresent, it actually makes Him impersonal and has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. How could God be present everywhere at the same time? God is a spirit Person. the Bible continually speaks of his “established place of dwelling,” (1 Kings 8:43) and being a person (John 4:24) (Heb. 9:24)
It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere...Liken God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe.
bye! i must gooo...
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
i'm sorry, i did realize that maybe i didn't answer to your liking...therefore, i am back, yet again.
i have never understood how people can feel that God is omnipresent, it actually makes Him impersonaland has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. How could God be present everywhere at the same time? God is a spirit Person. the Bible continually speaks of his “established place of dwelling,” (1 Kings 8:43) and being a person (John 4:24) (Heb. 9:24)
It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere...Liken God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe.
bye! i must gooo...
Thank you for your response.
I've asked these questions to clarify how we approach the subject of God differently. It looks like you rely on scripture for your understanding of God. My experiences with God have been experiential. I've had numerous spiritual experiences whereupon I've been shown things about God. In order to make sense of such experiences, I've also done much study.
If something is eternal there is no beginning or end, so by my understanding, there is can be no beginning or end to God. Like he cannot stop when he gets to my body, because eternal goes on forever and ever, without boundary, infinitely. For me, I see that we personalise God by our personal relationship with God. And each person does that differently and has a very different relationship with God.
I would mostly agree with your concept of God and electricity, with a difference: Electricity is harnessed from the charges in our environment that exist all around us--in each and every atom that makes up all that we know. I would see God as the Source and not as much limited to physical constraints of the plant. I see the source of electricity to be everywhere--the plant is where we tap and harness that source. I also see that each of us can choose to remain separate of the source by our each action, or we may plug into our Source and become reSourceful in each moment. The difference is illumination or darkness.
My personal view is that when humans analyse something with the human intellect, or use words etc, we remove ourselves from the true KNOWING of experience. The map of the territory is different than travelling the territory. So talking about or reading about God is different than truly understanding God by experiencing God first hand. And I don't mean to imply that you aren't aligned to God in your experiences due to your focus on scripture.
Thank-you for your consideration and your input in this discussion. It's been interesting and you've shown me some biblical concepts/interpretations I was not aware of.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i'm sorry, i did realize that maybe i didn't answer to your liking...therefore, i am back, yet again.
i have never understood how people can feel that God is omnipresent, it actually makes Him impersonal and has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. How could God be present everywhere at the same time? God is a spirit Person. the Bible continually speaks of his “established place of dwelling,” (1 Kings 8:43) and being a person (John 4:24) (Heb. 9:24)
It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere...Liken God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe.
bye! i must gooo...
Oh, you quote John 4:24 as speaking of God as a person.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
It sounds to me rather like it is saying God is a spirit.
More on omnipresence:
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." (Jer. 23:24)
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Kings 8:27)
"7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.(Psalm 139:7-10)"
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Oh, you quote John 4:24 as speaking of God as a person.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
It sounds to me rather like it is saying God is a spirit.
More on omnipresence:
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." (Jer. 23:24)
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Kings 8:27)
"7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.(Psalm 139:7-10)"
yeah, did not mean to put that scripture in there...Heb is the one referring to 'person of God'.
also, there are several different meanings for the word 'person', including:
2. An individual of specified character 7. Christianity Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Solomon, the constructor of the temple at Jerusalem, stated that the “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. (1Ki 8:27) As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” (Ps 148:13) God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger. (Isa 40:12) Solomon’s statement does not mean that God has no specific place of residence. Nor does it mean that he is omnipresent in the sense of being literally everywhere and in everything. This can be seen from the fact that Solomon also spoke of God as hearing “from the heavens, your established place of dwelling,” that is, the heavens of the spirit realm.—1Ki 8:30,*39.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
yeah, did not mean to put that scripture in there...Heb is the one referring to 'person of God'.
also, there are several different meanings for the word 'person', including:
2. An individual of specified character
7. Christianity Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Solomon, the constructor of the temple at Jerusalem, stated that the “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. (1Ki 8:27) As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” (Ps 148:13) God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger. (Isa 40:12) Solomon’s statement does not mean that God has no specific place of residence. Nor does it mean that he is omnipresent in the sense of being literally everywhere and in everything. This can be seen from the fact that Solomon also spoke of God as hearing “from the heavens, your established place of dwelling,” that is, the heavens of the spirit realm.—1Ki 8:30,*39.
You quoted: ' “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. '. I hear that God is beyond any limitation and beyond all boundary and therefore cannot be contained by the heavens as we know them. He created the very heavens, and therefore he must be beyond them, not contained within them. (as in the next quote)
Also: "As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” What I hear is: God is beyond all creation--he is so far above it, considering all of creation stems from him, his is obviously also outside creation. So beyond what we see as created that his name alone is "high".
When it is said: "God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger." ....I hear that considering God created time and space itself, he is agains beyond and outside the boundaries of that time and space--God created what there is to measure, therefore all measurement is within God, and God is also beyond such measure. This is also how he is beyond our power plants, he is the power in everything, afterall everything flows from his Word. Everything came into be as per his instruction/command.
While I see God as being in and around us, he is also sooooo much more beyond and "above" us that it goes beyond any possible human concept of heaven and earth.
I'm not sure if you disagree with my perceptions. My main issue is that I encourage all people to learn to access their inner connection to God. I'm saddened when people shut out the inner connection and therefore miss out on that personal connection/ relationship with God. The magic is not only in Church or in the bible, the miracles and the sacredness surrounds us. We are immersed in it when we choose to use our will to acknowledge it. We are immersed in Love/God, when we attune ourselves to it. Everything we know/see/sense stems from God and is one with God at the same time. It's not just for prophets to know. We can all experience this enLightenment.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not sure if you disagree with my perceptions. My main issue is that I encourage all people to learn to access their inner connection to God. I'm saddened when people shut out the inner connection and therefore miss out on that personal connection/ relationship with God. The magic is not only in Church or in the bible, the miracles and the sacredness surrounds us. We are immersed in it when we choose to use our will to acknowledge it. We are immersed in Love/God, when we attune ourselves to it. Everything we know/see/sense stems from God and is one with God at the same time. It's not just for prophets to know. We can all experience this enLightenment.
Rakki it was founded by a japanese christian who wanted to perform the miracles of jesus..supposedly its a healing touch type of thing. DOnt know too much really to elaborate just the basics
Rakki it was founded by a japanese christian who wanted to perform the miracles of jesus..supposedly its a healing touch type of thing. DOnt know too much really to elaborate just the basics
Oh, that sounds interesting.
The way it is for me is that I am spiritually in touch with God in and around me. I'm directly guided each day, and I'm 100% committed to such guidance. I find that many people tap into our Source in different ways, and see it differently, and do different things with it. I am definitely a natural healer, though, with this Source--of myself and of others.
Jesus did say: "He That Believeth on Me, the
Works That I Do, Shall He Do Also: and Greater Works Than
These Shall He Do"
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Rakki it was founded by a japanese christian who wanted to perform the miracles of jesus..supposedly its a healing touch type of thing. DOnt know too much really to elaborate just the basics
This is a pretty long thread and I didn't read every message in it, but I wanted to at least comment because I am 1) gay and 2) christian, so I probably have as good a perspective as anybody about this question. It's a complicated answer, but contrary to what some might think, all Christians do not believe homosexuality is a sin. A large and increasing number of Christians do not believe that it is sinful. And even if it is a sin (I don't believe it is), everyone is a sinner - there is not one Christian in the world who is without sin. If one of my sins in homosexuality, so be it. I'm trying to live the most honest and good life I can, like Christ wants me to. So, even if it is a sin, I believe that I'm forgiven (however I just want to repeat again I don't believe it is sinful).
The biggest evidence I have is my own relationship with God and the example that I try to set. Bp. Robinson (Episcopal) gave this advice to a young gay man: "let the Holy Spirit shine forth so brightly in your life that no one can doubt that you are a full member of the Body of Christ." So it is with me. I do the best I can in life, I try not to ask "what would Jesus do" as some evangelicals ask ... rather, I ask "what would Jesus want ME to do". Then I do it.
Regarding the scriptural passages, without getting into long boring details which have been rehashed elsewhere ad nauseum, I believe the anti-gay folks who pound certain isolated scriptural passages are misconstruing the meaning of them and taking them out of context. There is much more in the Bible that leads me to believe that God created me and loves me just as I am. People have tried and thought they found support in the Bible for lots of prejudiced opinions over the years, such as the anti-gay folks, people who wanted to support slavery, people who want to subjugate women, people who think Blacks are inferior to Whites, virulent anti-semetics, and on and on. To me, those people all miss the point that we are all equal in Christ's eyes, there is no man or woman in Christ, no master nor slave, no Black or White, and no Gay or Straight. We are all beloved children of God.
I'm a youth leader in my church (junior high). I also acolyte for high masses, occasionally serve as a chalice bearer and reader, and I'm a 3rd year student in the 4-year Education for Ministry program offered through the School of Theology at the University of the South in Sewannee, TN (I'm taking it through extension classes which meet at my parish).
I've also been a Pearl Jam fan almost since the beginning. Seen them many times in concert and been a 10c member for about 13 years. I think I recall that PJ supports gay rights causes, and they used to be (or perhaps still are) part of a group called "Artists for Equality" or something like that. In any event, I love PJ and their support for my being treated equally under the law as everyone else is only one more reason to like them.
I'm happy to talk to folks about this issue or anything else for that matter. The only thing that would bug me is if someone was too far on the other side of this issue I probably wouldn't enjoy chatting with you that much, but if you're open minded I might, and whether you're open minded or not, I'll do my best to show you the love, understanding and compassion that Christ would want me to.
Peace everybody,
Dan
"Butter hands" flew from her side? I wish I had butter hands. Mmmm, butter.
Christians are identified by their love. The Bible states... (paraphrase) this is how all may know that you are my brothers, if you have love among yourselves. (Jesus speaking). Also in the Bible... 1 Cor 6:9-10 ... "What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom"... "nor men who lie with men"... Please note, I am not judging I am just relaying what the Bible says.
Comments
Brought up earlier? Yes. Succesfully argued... hmmm, not really. But nevermind.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
after this i have to go...i've spent way too much time on board last two days
to explain what the soul is i have to use the Bible, obviously.
real quickly though, Definition: In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew ne′phesh and the Greek psy·khe′. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings
What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7 (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne′phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
1*Cor. 15:45 (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)
1*Pet. 3:20 (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khai′, the plural form of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)
Gen. 9:5 [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne′phesh] (Here the soul is said to have blood.)
Josh. 11:11 [Hebrew, ne′phesh] (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)
Where does the Bible say that animals are souls[b/]?
Gen. 1:20,*21,*24,*25 (*In Hebrew the word here is ne′phesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature.”
Lev. 24:17,*18: (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)
Rev. 16:3: (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·khe′. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.)
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. .*.*. The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII,*pp.*449, 450.
“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses .*.*.*, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. .*.*. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.
“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564
"The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254*C.E.] in the East and St.*Augustine [died 430*C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. .*.*. His [Augustine’s] doctrine .*.*. owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp.*452,*454
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. .*.*. Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May*1, 1970, p.*35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? .*.*. Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? .*.*. And does the soul admit of*death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,”*Secs. 64,*105, as published in Great Books of the Western*World (1952), edited by R.*M.*Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp.*223,*245,*246.
“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. .*.*. Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M.*Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.
i really must, again it's been interesting...i'm not trying to avoid any of your questions...i would actually like to continue if anyone wants...but this is never-ending, we all have our beliefs and opinions
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
i have to go too. i'm so far behind now. i'd like to continue too. i'll leave you with this thought. i was legally brain dead for 20 minutes during a brain surgery the doctors still say is impossible to survive. i had a brain anneurysm on my temple (olfactory) artery burst. i know what happened to me and proved it to several people. it wasn't the typical experience and in fact; couldn't have been imagined prior.
Do you believe that God is omnipresent and therefore present in all things, everywhere and at the same time?
When you have a moment, I'd love to hear your perspective.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i'm sorry, i did realize that maybe i didn't answer to your liking...therefore, i am back, yet again.
i have never understood how people can feel that God is omnipresent, it actually makes Him impersonal and has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. How could God be present everywhere at the same time? God is a spirit Person. the Bible continually speaks of his “established place of dwelling,” (1 Kings 8:43) and being a person (John 4:24) (Heb. 9:24)
It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere...Liken God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe.
bye! i must gooo...
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
I've asked these questions to clarify how we approach the subject of God differently. It looks like you rely on scripture for your understanding of God. My experiences with God have been experiential. I've had numerous spiritual experiences whereupon I've been shown things about God. In order to make sense of such experiences, I've also done much study.
If something is eternal there is no beginning or end, so by my understanding, there is can be no beginning or end to God. Like he cannot stop when he gets to my body, because eternal goes on forever and ever, without boundary, infinitely. For me, I see that we personalise God by our personal relationship with God. And each person does that differently and has a very different relationship with God.
I would mostly agree with your concept of God and electricity, with a difference: Electricity is harnessed from the charges in our environment that exist all around us--in each and every atom that makes up all that we know. I would see God as the Source and not as much limited to physical constraints of the plant. I see the source of electricity to be everywhere--the plant is where we tap and harness that source. I also see that each of us can choose to remain separate of the source by our each action, or we may plug into our Source and become reSourceful in each moment. The difference is illumination or darkness.
My personal view is that when humans analyse something with the human intellect, or use words etc, we remove ourselves from the true KNOWING of experience. The map of the territory is different than travelling the territory. So talking about or reading about God is different than truly understanding God by experiencing God first hand. And I don't mean to imply that you aren't aligned to God in your experiences due to your focus on scripture.
Thank-you for your consideration and your input in this discussion. It's been interesting and you've shown me some biblical concepts/interpretations I was not aware of.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Oh, you quote John 4:24 as speaking of God as a person.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
It sounds to me rather like it is saying God is a spirit.
More on omnipresence:
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." (Jer. 23:24)
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Kings 8:27)
"7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.(Psalm 139:7-10)"
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
yeah, did not mean to put that scripture in there...Heb is the one referring to 'person of God'.
also, there are several different meanings for the word 'person', including:
2. An individual of specified character
7. Christianity Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Solomon, the constructor of the temple at Jerusalem, stated that the “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. (1Ki 8:27) As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” (Ps 148:13) God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger. (Isa 40:12) Solomon’s statement does not mean that God has no specific place of residence. Nor does it mean that he is omnipresent in the sense of being literally everywhere and in everything. This can be seen from the fact that Solomon also spoke of God as hearing “from the heavens, your established place of dwelling,” that is, the heavens of the spirit realm.—1Ki 8:30,*39.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
You quoted: ' “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. '. I hear that God is beyond any limitation and beyond all boundary and therefore cannot be contained by the heavens as we know them. He created the very heavens, and therefore he must be beyond them, not contained within them. (as in the next quote)
Also: "As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” What I hear is: God is beyond all creation--he is so far above it, considering all of creation stems from him, his is obviously also outside creation. So beyond what we see as created that his name alone is "high".
When it is said: "God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger." ....I hear that considering God created time and space itself, he is agains beyond and outside the boundaries of that time and space--God created what there is to measure, therefore all measurement is within God, and God is also beyond such measure. This is also how he is beyond our power plants, he is the power in everything, afterall everything flows from his Word. Everything came into be as per his instruction/command.
While I see God as being in and around us, he is also sooooo much more beyond and "above" us that it goes beyond any possible human concept of heaven and earth.
I'm not sure if you disagree with my perceptions. My main issue is that I encourage all people to learn to access their inner connection to God. I'm saddened when people shut out the inner connection and therefore miss out on that personal connection/ relationship with God. The magic is not only in Church or in the bible, the miracles and the sacredness surrounds us. We are immersed in it when we choose to use our will to acknowledge it. We are immersed in Love/God, when we attune ourselves to it. Everything we know/see/sense stems from God and is one with God at the same time. It's not just for prophets to know. We can all experience this enLightenment.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I agree, you seem to be intune with rakki.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Rakki it was founded by a japanese christian who wanted to perform the miracles of jesus..supposedly its a healing touch type of thing. DOnt know too much really to elaborate just the basics
The way it is for me is that I am spiritually in touch with God in and around me. I'm directly guided each day, and I'm 100% committed to such guidance. I find that many people tap into our Source in different ways, and see it differently, and do different things with it. I am definitely a natural healer, though, with this Source--of myself and of others.
Jesus did say: "He That Believeth on Me, the
Works That I Do, Shall He Do Also: and Greater Works Than
These Shall He Do"
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think you might mean reiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki
I'm discarding all thought
I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
I'm like an opening band for the sun
The biggest evidence I have is my own relationship with God and the example that I try to set. Bp. Robinson (Episcopal) gave this advice to a young gay man: "let the Holy Spirit shine forth so brightly in your life that no one can doubt that you are a full member of the Body of Christ." So it is with me. I do the best I can in life, I try not to ask "what would Jesus do" as some evangelicals ask ... rather, I ask "what would Jesus want ME to do". Then I do it.
Regarding the scriptural passages, without getting into long boring details which have been rehashed elsewhere ad nauseum, I believe the anti-gay folks who pound certain isolated scriptural passages are misconstruing the meaning of them and taking them out of context. There is much more in the Bible that leads me to believe that God created me and loves me just as I am. People have tried and thought they found support in the Bible for lots of prejudiced opinions over the years, such as the anti-gay folks, people who wanted to support slavery, people who want to subjugate women, people who think Blacks are inferior to Whites, virulent anti-semetics, and on and on. To me, those people all miss the point that we are all equal in Christ's eyes, there is no man or woman in Christ, no master nor slave, no Black or White, and no Gay or Straight. We are all beloved children of God.
I'm a youth leader in my church (junior high). I also acolyte for high masses, occasionally serve as a chalice bearer and reader, and I'm a 3rd year student in the 4-year Education for Ministry program offered through the School of Theology at the University of the South in Sewannee, TN (I'm taking it through extension classes which meet at my parish).
I've also been a Pearl Jam fan almost since the beginning. Seen them many times in concert and been a 10c member for about 13 years. I think I recall that PJ supports gay rights causes, and they used to be (or perhaps still are) part of a group called "Artists for Equality" or something like that. In any event, I love PJ and their support for my being treated equally under the law as everyone else is only one more reason to like them.
I'm happy to talk to folks about this issue or anything else for that matter. The only thing that would bug me is if someone was too far on the other side of this issue I probably wouldn't enjoy chatting with you that much, but if you're open minded I might, and whether you're open minded or not, I'll do my best to show you the love, understanding and compassion that Christ would want me to.
Peace everybody,
Dan