I've been discussing this topic recently with those religiuos fanatics and my favourite priest and I must say that this discussion wasn't ..hmm ..pleasant ..?It's a hard topic just like the abortion..
Their arguments were totally unconvincing to me like "homosexual thoughts aren't a sin , but resisting to those thoughts+the worse - homosexuals acts ARE.I tried to convince them that homosexuals are normal and need some acceptance,that those people FEEL love to each other so how can christians deny true and pure love and feelings !They don't want to hear about it and why ? because such a view is inconvenient for them and knocks down this great wall which they create with such primitive consistency.Why primitive? Because they feel somehow that this view doesn't fit to a christian approach to life and other beings and they blindly stick to it because The Church says so - so it must be their view too.I wish them one thing ... a homosexual person within the most intimate environment like family or friends.Because it is easy to deny when they know really nothing about it.I would like to see such guy telling to his homosexual brother or sister "YOU NEED SOME TREATMENT" and have you heard what happens after such a treatment .? eh .I've always claimed that the Church isn't perfect in many aspects.I am a Christian but I have my own views on many things and sometimes those views differ a lot but I will never change my mind.
I've always claimed that the Church isn't perfect in many aspects.I am a Christian but I have my own views on many things and sometimes those views differ a lot but I will never change my mind.
I think, perhaps you should start wth what is a christian. My understanding is that christians love all; if you are not doing so are you a christian?
you misunderstood my message,I am all for homosexuals but all I wanted was to try to convince the rest of my Christian group to them.I tried everything but ...it didn't work.That means that those religious fanatics don't really understand the main sense of Christianity , have problems with distinguishing ... they don't want to understand.That is why i resigned and I'm not in this group anymore :(
In my country The Church=being a Christian , tight relationship , more complex case..
I didn't misunderstand, it wasn't stated clearly. I guess that shows how important clear language is; I find, at times church groups are ambiguous purposely.
Thanks for clearing it up.
I understand what you mean about church=christian, my family comes from the same type of thinking, lucky for me my parents re not religious at all.
you misunderstood my message,I am all for homosexuals but all I wanted was to try to convince the rest of my Christian group to them.I tried everything but ...it didn't work.That means that those religious fanatics don't really understand the main sense of Christianity , have problems with distinguishing ... they don't want to understand.That is why i resigned and I'm not in this group anymore :(
In my country The Church=being a Christian , tight relationship , more complex case..
I'd love to find out why they are in the place they are, despite what the church tells them all the time. I really don't know where I stand on it at all; I have my reasons.
They don't go to any church and being a Christian has nothing to do with churches. The two are not synonymous.
In fact, I don't believe Jesus wanted anyone to create, join or attend churches-for the sake of spirituality and communicating with god.
I tend to believe that he discouraged the church concept.
They don't go to any church and being a Christian has nothing to do with churches. The two are not synonymous.
In fact, I don't believe Jesus wanted anyone to create, join or attend churches-for the sake of spirituality and communicating with god.
I tend to believe that he discouraged the church concept.
I also believe the church concept and being a Christian are not synonymous. I was using 'church' not in an institutional sense; merely as the body of believers around the world: the Church, of which every Christian is a part. Being a Christian is not an individualistic, solitary lifestyle (even if we sometimes wish it was). This is the 'Church' which often alienates homosexual people that I was referring to.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Christians do NOT hate homosexual people (Contrary to what Fred Phelps might have to say--he is hardly a banner example of Christianity). Christians hate the act of homosexuality--just as much as we hate other sins.
alright, i've heard that exact phrase a lot. I understand exactly what you mean by that, but i still think it's a load of underhanded bullshit.
it's not just about accepting someone, it's about accepting someone for who they are.
not.. "i love you, but your lifestyle is sinful and godless".. just "i love you".
by the way, it's considered a sin (by some christians, as someone pointed out ) because of religious dogma that's been mis-interpretted, re-interpretted, and made up throughout the years. Certain ideologies get washed into a culture and become part of it over time.
It's in the same vein as racist, sexist, and otherwise discriminatory beliefs. That said, in a progressive society like ours that line of thinking is a dying one.
And the original poster is a decent example of how it's dying.. it starts with questioning.
I also believe the church concept and being a Christian are not synonymous. I was using 'church' not in an institutional sense; merely as the body of believers around the world: the Church, of which every Christian is a part. Being a Christian is not an individualistic, solitary lifestyle (even if we sometimes wish it was). This is the 'Church' which often alienates homosexual people that I was referring to.
Why use the word church--instead of believers or christians?
Because the Bible itself so often uses the word 'Church' plurally, meaning every Christian in the world. There was no concept of a Sunday morning service at a building called 'a church' in the Bible. In its context, 'the Church' = the people of the world. It's us who's skewed the meaning; nothing wrong with the word.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
I didn't misunderstand, it wasn't stated clearly. I guess that shows how important clear language is; I find, at times church groups are ambiguous purposely.
Thanks for clearing it up.
I understand what you mean about church=christian, my family comes from the same type of thinking, lucky for me my parents re not religious at all.
Oh don't be so miscellaneous , a bad day ?I have a hangover ,it is not always so easy to express thoughts.
the bible especially the new testament is a loving book..unlike the koran the bible is about spreading gods word through love and compassion for humans.
Well my thinking started when it suddenly struck me: Leviticus. It totally condemns people with any physical blemish, or anyone disabled, being in the priesthood; and of course, most of the Bible reinforces the damaging rubbish that says if you're disabled, it's because of some sin you've done.
It isn't a sexual issue, granted. And I know there are still some morons who believe this. But what criteria do we use when picking and choosing what laws to still uphold in our day? Sexually, the Bible was explicitly against many sexual acts (and otherwise) we consider perfectly normal, and holy, now.
I'm not making a case, necessarily, just explaining what started me off finding all this interesting. I've found an essay online, which is very thought-provoking. Here's the link, maybe we could discuss it?
i have to say that points 1-14 are easily explained. the problem is many people just read what is in front of them and fail to do an in depth search of the scriptures. he's a professor? do a little more research in the scriptures and other historical accounts proving the Bible's authenticity.
the Bible is very consistent in it's teachings.
if i need to explain i will, later...too much right now.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
i have to say that points 1-14 are easily explained. the problem is many people just read what is in front of them and fail to do an in depth search of the scriptures. he's a professor? do a little more research in the scriptures and other historical accounts proving the Bible's authenticity.
the Bible is very consistent in it's teachings.
if i need to explain i will, later...too much right now.
I would love to hear the easy explanations regarding points 1-14.
It makes sense that as a professor of biblical interpretation and as a minister that he might have been inclined to fail to do an indepth search of scriptures.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
the bible especially the new testament is a loving book..unlike the koran the bible is about spreading gods word through love and compassion for humans.
I have never seen one positive post out of you.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I would love to hear the easy explanations regarding points 1-14.
It makes sense that as a professor of biblical interpretation and as a minister that he might have been inclined to fail to do an indepth search of scriptures.
i would love to...it will just take time, things are getting hectic around here. but my no means do i want to avoid this...it's a good and interesting conversation.
i failed to mention that i too am a minister.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
i would love to...it will just take time, things are getting hectic around here. but my no means do i want to avoid this...it's a good and interesting conversation.
i failed to mention that i too am a minister.
I look forward to hearing it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
This is an interesting question. Some biblical scholars have even gone so far as to allude that Jesus was a homosexual. Their argument is completely circumstantial but definately plausable. He was never married, he hung out with 12 other "Apostles".....etc, etc. Also, 2000 years ago homosexuality was much more tolerated and open. Just go look at some Roman mosaics and you'll see the lax attitude first hand toward homsexuality. Something to think about I guess.
one foot in the door
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
Right, I'm a Christian. I was always 'taught' that a homosexual lifestyle is sinful. It's been getting my goat really recently, because, just suddenly, I'm starting to wonder why we think that as Christians. Because not all of us do. And, well, I've forgotten why I once did, as well.
If you 'do' go with this line of thinking, could you refresh my memory? Because at present, I'm sort of scratching my head.
If you 'do not' think that (i.e. if you're a Christian and for homosexuality, perhaps gay yourself) I'd love to have your opinion on why you are in the place you are theologically.
Please, no stating the obvious people. No crap like 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve'. I know why I 'should' believe homosexuality is wrong. I just have my reasons as to whether I think it actually is in today's society. I can elaborate if anyone likes.
Pearl Jam fan/Theology student here. Read the four Gospels, Christ does not speak of homosexuality once. More than anything, he teaches how we should treat our neighbors and the "least among us," especially the poor. There are 2,103 verses of Scripture pertaining to the poor. Jesus Christ
only speaks of judgment once. It is not all about the things that the church
bangs on about. It is not about sexual immorality. It is about the poor. "I was naked and you clothed me. I was a stranger and you let me in." This is at the heart of the gospel.
My Pearl Jam Road: 10/22/90 Seattle | 12/22/90 Seattle, Moore Theater | 9/29/92 Seattle, Magnusson Park, Drop in the Park | 9/5/93 The Gorge, with Neil Young and Blind Melon | 7/20/06 Portland, Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall with Sleater-Kinney | 7/22/06 The Gorge, 10/21/06 Mountain View, Shoreline Ampitheatre, Bridge School Benefit | 9/21/09 Seattle | 9/22/09 Seattle | 9/26/09 Portland, OR | 7/14/2011 Eddie Vedder, Portland, OR | 11/29/13 Portland, OR
Here's a simple example that should be eye opening. I do think homosexuality is a sin just like many, many, many other sins that all of us commit, BUT people need to remember this:
Paul wrote the majority of the New Testament and he was a MURDERER before he became a Christian. That simple fact demonstrates that people can be forgiven and used by God and we shouldn't alienate homosexuals from the church.
To me, murder is the one sin that seems to be worse than others because if you kill someone who is not a Christian, you have condemned them to hell.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
To me, murder is the one sin that seems to be worse than others because if you kill someone who is not a Christian, you have condemned them to hell.
I'm not sure I agreed with much of what you said; you're equating homosexuality with murder. I've heard it a million times before, but I'm not buying it. Homosexuals require 'forgiveness'; not really an 'original thought' I'm afraid.
That said, this above kind of takes the cake. Really? You think that? God help you. Sorry, that's just really pissed me off. So all the people who are dying in Iraq right now who haven't met Jesus - kid, woman, man - are all going to hell... don't be so stupid dude.
Yeah, you've opened my eyes, but not for the reason you hoped.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Paul wrote the majority of the New Testament and he was a MURDERER before he became a Christian. That simple fact demonstrates that people can be forgiven and used by God and we shouldn't alienate homosexuals from the church.
Yeah, that was a great sequel. Can't wait for the third installment of the franchise. "The New, New Testament: Jesus and Bernie Out For The Weekend". I hear Scott Stapp has auditioned for the Jesus role.
my mother is as roman catholic as you can get and she supports gay marriage tooth and nail. on the other hand; most of the people i know are agnostic and athiests and hate gays to the point of boycotting their businesses; etc.
my question is why do people assume it's christians that are anti-gay. being a christian means accepting everyone for what they are.
I'm not sure I agreed with much of what you said; you're equating homosexuality with murder. I've heard it a million times before, but I'm not buying it. Homosexuals require 'forgiveness'; not really an 'original thought' I'm afraid.
That said, this above kind of takes the cake. Really? You think that? God help you. Sorry, that's just really pissed me off. So all the people who are dying in Iraq right now who haven't met Jesus - kid, woman, man - are all going to hell... don't be so stupid dude.
Yeah, you've opened my eyes, but not for the reason you hoped.
hell is earth and people will be born again to earth until they reach enlightenment. God is inside everyone; be it any name you choose to call him. all religions lead to God. the enlightenment is a state of mind or a level of consiousness. God sent his son to many religions. as Jesus; Krishna; and other names. the root of all religions is love.
more later. there's a thunderstorm overhead.
my mother is as roman catholic as you can get and she supports gay marriage tooth and nail. on the other hand; most of the people i know are agnostic and athiests and hate gays to the point of boycotting their businesses; etc.
my question is why do people assume it's christians that are anti-gay. being a christian means accepting everyone for what they are.
Thank you. I've been making this and similar points forever. No one listens.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
hell is earth and people will be born again to earth until they reach enlightenment. God is inside everyone; be it any name you choose to call him. all religions lead to God. the enlightenment is a state of mind or a level of consiousness. God sent his son to many religions. as Jesus; Krishna; and other names. the root of all religions is love.
more later. there's a thunderstorm overhead.
Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input. But can't two Christians have a chat (incidentally, I was disagreeing with the poster I'd quoted) without someone jumping on the discussion and BOTH of their viewpoints with a far more politically correct viewpoint (which, obviously, is THE right one, because you say so)?
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
my mother is as roman catholic as you can get and she supports gay marriage tooth and nail. on the other hand; most of the people i know are agnostic and athiests and hate gays to the point of boycotting their businesses; etc.
my question is why do people assume it's christians that are anti-gay. being a christian means accepting everyone for what they are.
Well no, being a Christian means accepting people for who they are and, if they are leading sinful lives, helping them lovingly to change - therefore helping them to be different, the person who they are not at the moment, but are trying to become. Jesus rarely let sinful people stay exactly as they were.
That said, whether Christians should be anti-gay is a seperate issue. People assume Christians are anti-gay because, well, loads of them are. It's an unfortunate truth, but it is the truth. My question was whether Christians should view homosexuality as 'sinful' at all.
It's specifically a question for Christians, really, since obviously the majority of the board will view homosexuality as completely natural and OK with them.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
I'm not sure I agreed with much of what you said; you're equating homosexuality with murder. I've heard it a million times before, but I'm not buying it. Homosexuals require 'forgiveness'; not really an 'original thought' I'm afraid.
That said, this above kind of takes the cake. Really? You think that? God help you. Sorry, that's just really pissed me off. So all the people who are dying in Iraq right now who haven't met Jesus - kid, woman, man - are all going to hell... don't be so stupid dude.
Yeah, you've opened my eyes, but not for the reason you hoped.
Absolutely not. I was NOT EQUATING homosexuality with murder by any means at all. I was equating homosexuality with all of the sins all of us commit and was saying that if God could forgive and use a murderer - which is much worse than homosexuality - it should be a lesson to all of us not to alienate anyone.
Go back and read what I read again and see if you really think I said what you inferred here.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
I think, perhaps you should start wth what is a christian. My understanding is that christians love all; if you are not doing so are you a christian?
Mihi cura futuri.
The elements they speak to me.
http://espn.go.com/espnradiostations/NewYork1050/gallery/35218855.html
so cute they are
Mihi cura futuri.
The elements they speak to me.
http://espn.go.com/espnradiostations/NewYork1050/gallery/35218855.html
so cute they are
you misunderstood my message,I am all for homosexuals but all I wanted was to try to convince the rest of my Christian group to them.I tried everything but ...it didn't work.That means that those religious fanatics don't really understand the main sense of Christianity , have problems with distinguishing ... they don't want to understand.That is why i resigned and I'm not in this group anymore :(
In my country The Church=being a Christian , tight relationship , more complex case..
Thanks for clearing it up.
I understand what you mean about church=christian, my family comes from the same type of thinking, lucky for me my parents re not religious at all.
Mihi cura futuri.
The elements they speak to me.
http://espn.go.com/espnradiostations/NewYork1050/gallery/35218855.html
so cute they are
They don't go to any church and being a Christian has nothing to do with churches. The two are not synonymous.
In fact, I don't believe Jesus wanted anyone to create, join or attend churches-for the sake of spirituality and communicating with god.
I tend to believe that he discouraged the church concept.
I also believe the church concept and being a Christian are not synonymous. I was using 'church' not in an institutional sense; merely as the body of believers around the world: the Church, of which every Christian is a part. Being a Christian is not an individualistic, solitary lifestyle (even if we sometimes wish it was). This is the 'Church' which often alienates homosexual people that I was referring to.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
it's not just about accepting someone, it's about accepting someone for who they are.
not.. "i love you, but your lifestyle is sinful and godless".. just "i love you".
by the way, it's considered a sin (by some christians, as someone pointed out
It's in the same vein as racist, sexist, and otherwise discriminatory beliefs. That said, in a progressive society like ours that line of thinking is a dying one.
And the original poster is a decent example of how it's dying.. it starts with questioning.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Mihi cura futuri.
The elements they speak to me.
http://espn.go.com/espnradiostations/NewYork1050/gallery/35218855.html
so cute they are
Because the Bible itself so often uses the word 'Church' plurally, meaning every Christian in the world. There was no concept of a Sunday morning service at a building called 'a church' in the Bible. In its context, 'the Church' = the people of the world. It's us who's skewed the meaning; nothing wrong with the word.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Hahahaha....oh god.....Hahahahahaha.....I....Hahahaha....I can't.....Hahahahaha......I can't......stop .......laughing...Hahahahaha
Oh man, that's the funniest shit you have ever posted, Miller!
i have to say that points 1-14 are easily explained. the problem is many people just read what is in front of them and fail to do an in depth search of the scriptures. he's a professor? do a little more research in the scriptures and other historical accounts proving the Bible's authenticity.
the Bible is very consistent in it's teachings.
if i need to explain i will, later...too much right now.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
It makes sense that as a professor of biblical interpretation and as a minister that he might have been inclined to fail to do an indepth search of scriptures.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I have never seen one positive post out of you.
i would love to...it will just take time, things are getting hectic around here. but my no means do i want to avoid this...it's a good and interesting conversation.
i failed to mention that i too am a minister.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
thank you angelica
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Pearl Jam fan/Theology student here. Read the four Gospels, Christ does not speak of homosexuality once. More than anything, he teaches how we should treat our neighbors and the "least among us," especially the poor. There are 2,103 verses of Scripture pertaining to the poor. Jesus Christ
only speaks of judgment once. It is not all about the things that the church
bangs on about. It is not about sexual immorality. It is about the poor. "I was naked and you clothed me. I was a stranger and you let me in." This is at the heart of the gospel.
Paul wrote the majority of the New Testament and he was a MURDERER before he became a Christian. That simple fact demonstrates that people can be forgiven and used by God and we shouldn't alienate homosexuals from the church.
To me, murder is the one sin that seems to be worse than others because if you kill someone who is not a Christian, you have condemned them to hell.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm not sure I agreed with much of what you said; you're equating homosexuality with murder. I've heard it a million times before, but I'm not buying it. Homosexuals require 'forgiveness'; not really an 'original thought' I'm afraid.
That said, this above kind of takes the cake. Really? You think that? God help you. Sorry, that's just really pissed me off. So all the people who are dying in Iraq right now who haven't met Jesus - kid, woman, man - are all going to hell... don't be so stupid dude.
Yeah, you've opened my eyes, but not for the reason you hoped.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Yeah, that was a great sequel. Can't wait for the third installment of the franchise. "The New, New Testament: Jesus and Bernie Out For The Weekend". I hear Scott Stapp has auditioned for the Jesus role.
Can't wait for the trailers.
my question is why do people assume it's christians that are anti-gay. being a christian means accepting everyone for what they are.
hell is earth and people will be born again to earth until they reach enlightenment. God is inside everyone; be it any name you choose to call him. all religions lead to God. the enlightenment is a state of mind or a level of consiousness. God sent his son to many religions. as Jesus; Krishna; and other names. the root of all religions is love.
more later. there's a thunderstorm overhead.
Thank you. I've been making this and similar points forever. No one listens.
Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input. But can't two Christians have a chat (incidentally, I was disagreeing with the poster I'd quoted) without someone jumping on the discussion and BOTH of their viewpoints with a far more politically correct viewpoint (which, obviously, is THE right one, because you say so)?
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Well no, being a Christian means accepting people for who they are and, if they are leading sinful lives, helping them lovingly to change - therefore helping them to be different, the person who they are not at the moment, but are trying to become. Jesus rarely let sinful people stay exactly as they were.
That said, whether Christians should be anti-gay is a seperate issue. People assume Christians are anti-gay because, well, loads of them are. It's an unfortunate truth, but it is the truth. My question was whether Christians should view homosexuality as 'sinful' at all.
It's specifically a question for Christians, really, since obviously the majority of the board will view homosexuality as completely natural and OK with them.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Absolutely not. I was NOT EQUATING homosexuality with murder by any means at all. I was equating homosexuality with all of the sins all of us commit and was saying that if God could forgive and use a murderer - which is much worse than homosexuality - it should be a lesson to all of us not to alienate anyone.
Go back and read what I read again and see if you really think I said what you inferred here.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.