OK, this is starting to get a little irritating; we're voting with our heads, thank you very much. Although I think you're wrong to vote for McCain, I respect that your thought process and ideology has led you to that choice. I think you should grow up a little and offer me and other Obama supporters a bit of that same respect.
I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.
I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.
And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.
"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan
There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.
I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.
I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.
And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.
"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan
There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.
Look at the record. Vote with your head.
I wouldn't have really minded a McCain presidency that much (I think he would have shifted back to the center) But he nominated Palin for V.P. Our country can't take the risk. That is voting with my head.
This debate had the worst moderator of all of them. He kept letting McCain get the last word on nearly every question. In spite of that I think Obama still did a better job there.
you have to be joking. I would have to say that your opinion is a little bias.
Like a word misplaced...nothing said...what a waste
Uncommitted voters named Barack Obama as the winner of the third and final presidential debate by a large margin, according to a CBS News/Knowledge Networks poll.
A majority of debate watchers think Sen. Barack Obama won the third and final presidential debate, according to a national poll conducted right afterward.
Fifty-eight percent of debate watchers questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll said Democratic candidate Obama did the best job in the debate, with 31 percent saying Republican Sen. John McCain performed best.
Forty-nine percent of respondents said that Obama won the debate, compared to 46 who believed his opponent, Sen. John McCain, came out on top. The three-point gap separating the two candidates was equal to the poll’s margin of error. Five percent said they were unsure which candidate had the better evening.
I think this is due to the fact that many people look at visuals rather than substance. And also, many people think the person won that the media pundits after the debate tell them that won....if that makes sense.
OK, this is starting to get a little irritating; we're voting with our heads, thank you very much. Although I think you're wrong to vote for McCain, I respect that your thought process and ideology has led you to that choice. I think you should grow up a little and offer me and other Obama supporters a bit of that same respect.
98% of Obama supporters on here are so unbelievably biased and unrespectful to McCain yet you ask for repsect from McCain supporters?
I think it's funny how the Obama supporters on here have resorted to pointing out how old McCain looks. If that's the worse thing that came from McCain last night he must have done pretty well then. Voting based on his age is ALMOST as bad of voiting based on Obama's skin color.
Like a word misplaced...nothing said...what a waste
I wouldn't have really minded a McCain presidency that much (I think he would have shifted back to the center) But he nominated Palin for V.P. Our country can't take the risk. That is voting with my head.
Then you didn't give a thorough critical examination to her record. Few could argue that Biden is quite qualified by most standars. if you're rooting for presidential death, the I guess Biden's your guy.
But aside from that, if you hold Palin to an even higher standard, say, hold her up to the Dem Nominee, you see that she can beat even him.
I used this comparison to McCain, but if you hold it up to Palin as well...
Obama has
more corporate money FACT
worse friends FACT
less record of meaningful change FACT
less record of service FACT
less experience FACT
less knowledge FACT
a running mate who thinks both HE and McCain would be a better president than the nominee. FACT
less resistance to the establishment, aggregate on record FACT
Then you didn't give a thorough critical examination to her record. Few could argue that Biden is quite qualified by most standars. if you're rooting for presidential death, the I guess Biden's your guy.
But aside from that, if you hold Palin to an even higher standard, say, hold her up to the Dem Nominee, you see that she can beat even him.
I used this comparison to McCain, but if you hold it up to Palin as well...
Obama has
more corporate money FACT
worse friends FACT
less record of meaningful change FACT
less record of service FACT
less experience FACT
less knowledge FACT
a running mate who thinks both HE and McCain would be a better president than the nominee. FACT
less resistance to the establishment, aggregate on record FACT
these are the COLD HARD INDESPUTABLE FACTS.
Look at the record, vote with your head.
An Obama presidency is unacceptable.
dude ... how can you spew this stuff and say FACT!?? ... worse friends?? ... less knowledge?? ... record of meaningful change?? ... they are primarily subjective viewpoints at best ... they are by no means FACT ...
dude ... how can you spew this stuff and say FACT!?? ... worse friends?? ... less knowledge?? ... record of meaningful change?? ... they are primarily subjective viewpoints at best ... they are by no means FACT ...
these are absolutely concrete facts.
Look at the record. I don;t have time to chase it all down for ya'. Put in some time yourself.
I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.
I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.
And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.
"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan
There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.
Look at the record. Vote with your head.
It's like speaking to a broken record, no pun intended. We have looked at legislation, we've looked at policy proposals. I think Obama has been right, and McCain has been consistently wrong. I'm not going vote for someone just because they have a long record, especially if I think it's the wrong record for the time. And I may have thought Bush was full of shit in 2004, but I at least was willing to acknowledge that the majority of the country thought differently then me. I'm happy to have disagreements and debates, but when you start telling me I and others are blinded when it's clear that it is not the case it's hard to take your arguments seriously. It's the kind of thing I find very irritating, and it happens on both sides.
Also, you'll notice that Obama's numbers have gone up in the past few weeks; this is when undecided voters that before this point I have not concentrated hard on the election are deciding, and they seem to be deciding in Obama's favor. Are they all zombies, too? I guess so, it just took them over two years to become mindless followers. Good thing they finally fell in line......it's just a ludicrous argument, and it treats the American people like idiots, which is something Republicans often accuse Democrats of doing.
dude ... how can you spew this stuff and say FACT!?? ... worse friends?? ... less knowledge?? ... record of meaningful change?? ... they are primarily subjective viewpoints at best ... they are by no means FACT ...
I agree regarding most of this...worst friends, knowledge...all subjective.
Record of meaningful change though? I think you could state that as fact.
I think this is due to the fact that many people look at visuals rather than substance. And also, many people think the person won that the media pundits after the debate tell them that won....if that makes sense.
non-verbal communication is important. If memory serves me right, as per a Grad course I took a few years ago, Non-verbal communication makes up 80 to 85% communication...
perhaps people are combining verbal (substance) with non-verbal (visuals)....
Look at the record. I don;t have time to chase it all down for ya'. Put in some time yourself.
c'mon ... you can't be serious!? ... what is your criteria for who counts as a "good" friend and a "bad" friend!?? ...
there are plenty of reasons to not vote for obama but this is akin to mccain's continuous links to bill ayers - it's grasping at straws; it's throwing shit out there and hoping some of it sticks ...
98% of Obama supporters on here are so unbelievably biased and unrespectful to McCain yet you ask for repsect from McCain supporters?
I think it's funny how the Obama supporters on here have resorted to pointing out how old McCain looks. If that's the worse thing that came from McCain last night he must have done pretty well then. Voting based on his age is ALMOST as bad of voiting based on Obama's skin color.
Yes, I do ask for respect for several reasons. For one, he questioned my ability to think clearly about the issues, and I don't really like being called a zombie. And your 98% thing, that's a meaningless statistic. The worst most Obama supporters call McCain is 'four more years of Bush', which is pretty tame. So, once you say that the majority of Obama supporters have been pro-Obama rather than anti-McCain your argument doesn't hold any water. You are taking the most odious elements of some Obama supporters and applying them to all his supporters. Tell you what, if you are willing to not assume that all Obama supporters are as bad as you're saying, I promise not to assume that all Republicans think Obama is a terrorist and want him dead. I don't think it does anybody any good to apply the worst elements of a candidate's supporters to the entire damn population.
98% of Obama supporters on here are so unbelievably biased and unrespectful to McCain yet you ask for repsect from McCain supporters?
I think it's funny how the Obama supporters on here have resorted to pointing out how old McCain looks. If that's the worse thing that came from McCain last night he must have done pretty well then. Voting based on his age is ALMOST as bad of voiting based on Obama's skin color.
if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...
sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...
Who won the debate is a current opinion. It isn't like the polls reflecting a potential fact (like who is going to vote for each guy) because that changes. And for the debate, opinion matters.
c'mon ... you can't be serious!? ... what is your criteria for who counts as a "good" friend and a "bad" friend!?? ...
there are plenty of reasons to not vote for obama but this is akin to mccain's continuous links to bill ayers - it's grasping at straws; it's throwing shit out there and hoping some of it sticks ...
Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?
You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"
This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.
He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.
You certainly cannot say that about McCain.
the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.
non-verbal communication is important. If memory serves me right, as per a Grad course I took a few years ago, Non-verbal communication makes up 80 to 85% communication...
perhaps people are combining verbal (substance) with non-verbal (visuals)....
It's important because it's what peole see, but it is interpreted however they like, unlike stated verbal communication.
So the messager should be aware of this fact because it is a fact, but the people listening to the message should also be aware of the fact and try to realy analyze if they are letting body language effect their opinion of verbal communication. Sometime the body language will help determine the real truth in the verbal communication, other times it is just distracting.
Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?
You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"
This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.
He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.
You certainly cannot say that about McCain.
the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.
Um...where have you been?? Palin was found by a bi-partisan committee to have taken unethical action. FACT. deal with it. Vote with your head. A McCain presidency would be a disaster.
if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...
sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...
Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?
if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...
sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...
Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.
And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.
Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.
An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.
Who won the debate is a current opinion. It isn't like the polls reflecting a potential fact (like who is going to vote for each guy) because that changes. And for the debate, opinion matters.
opinions are like assholes.....
Who does it matter too? People that can't make up their own decisions based on what they research on their own? But rather will vote based on what a musician or actor says? Everyone has their own reasons for who they vote for and just because my reason differ from the next guy doesn't make me right and him wrong.
Like a word misplaced...nothing said...what a waste
Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.
And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.
Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.
An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.
I don't necessarily buy that on just one side, what I see are quite a few folks tripping over themselves to vote to prove that "whitey's not racist".
There's giong to be some bigots, but they are a MINISCULE fraction of the voting public.
Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.
And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.
Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.
An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.
Correction, Obama is not "African American"
Like a word misplaced...nothing said...what a waste
Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?
Subjective opinion based on certain criteria.
He his old based upond his own medical history :
A normal wma with normal markers is 75. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
He has a history of cancer, a history of pow, he has severe disabilities (yes not being able to lift your arms over your head is a severe disability). Knowing this you can suspect with some confidence that he may not finish his first term. It's a natural deduction based on statistics.
I even suspect this is the main reason why Obama ended up with the most financial support from corporate origins : who would want to invest in a candidate with limited chances to finish his first term and I won't even speak of a second one?
Um...where have you been?? Palin was found by a bi-partisan committee to have taken unethical action. FACT. deal with it. Vote with your head. A McCain presidency would be a disaster.
oh yeah?
from the OFFICIAL finding, not some spin:
"I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooter was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was LIKELY a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a PROPER and LAWFUL exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads."
FACT, OFFICIAL RECORD, educate yourself with the official record, not the TV
The fact is, the guy was a piss-poor performer, and she was well withing her right to fire the guy. Wrong my patootee.
And again, the cop in question tazered her sisters SON.
Who does it matter too? People that can't make up their own decisions based on what they research on their own? But rather will vote based on what a musician or actor says? Everyone has their own reasons for who they vote for and just because my reason differ from the next guy doesn't make me right and him wrong.
Kind of. Yeah, everybody has them but in this case people are choosing between three things (win, loss or tie). It matters because when you have a contest, it is important to know who did a better job. While there are very few concrete evaluative techniques to use in such a subjective debate, grasping the public's opinion of who won is important. Was it a tie? Was it a victory for McCain? Was it a victory for Obama?
Debates are contests and trying to get a sense of who "won" is fun and interesting and could potentially affect who is our next president. So simply the fact that people "think" Obama won is a victory for him. That is why opinions matter.
Comments
I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.
I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.
And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.
"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan
There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.
Look at the record. Vote with your head.
I wouldn't have really minded a McCain presidency that much (I think he would have shifted back to the center) But he nominated Palin for V.P. Our country can't take the risk. That is voting with my head.
And seeing as the polls say Obama won by nearly 2 to 1 I wouldn't worry about it
I think this is due to the fact that many people look at visuals rather than substance. And also, many people think the person won that the media pundits after the debate tell them that won....if that makes sense.
I think it's funny how the Obama supporters on here have resorted to pointing out how old McCain looks. If that's the worse thing that came from McCain last night he must have done pretty well then. Voting based on his age is ALMOST as bad of voiting based on Obama's skin color.
Then you didn't give a thorough critical examination to her record. Few could argue that Biden is quite qualified by most standars. if you're rooting for presidential death, the I guess Biden's your guy.
But aside from that, if you hold Palin to an even higher standard, say, hold her up to the Dem Nominee, you see that she can beat even him.
I used this comparison to McCain, but if you hold it up to Palin as well...
Obama has
more corporate money FACT
worse friends FACT
less record of meaningful change FACT
less record of service FACT
less experience FACT
less knowledge FACT
a running mate who thinks both HE and McCain would be a better president than the nominee. FACT
less resistance to the establishment, aggregate on record FACT
these are the COLD HARD INDESPUTABLE FACTS.
Look at the record, vote with your head.
An Obama presidency is unacceptable.
dude ... how can you spew this stuff and say FACT!?? ... worse friends?? ... less knowledge?? ... record of meaningful change?? ... they are primarily subjective viewpoints at best ... they are by no means FACT ...
these are absolutely concrete facts.
Look at the record. I don;t have time to chase it all down for ya'. Put in some time yourself.
It's like speaking to a broken record, no pun intended. We have looked at legislation, we've looked at policy proposals. I think Obama has been right, and McCain has been consistently wrong. I'm not going vote for someone just because they have a long record, especially if I think it's the wrong record for the time. And I may have thought Bush was full of shit in 2004, but I at least was willing to acknowledge that the majority of the country thought differently then me. I'm happy to have disagreements and debates, but when you start telling me I and others are blinded when it's clear that it is not the case it's hard to take your arguments seriously. It's the kind of thing I find very irritating, and it happens on both sides.
Also, you'll notice that Obama's numbers have gone up in the past few weeks; this is when undecided voters that before this point I have not concentrated hard on the election are deciding, and they seem to be deciding in Obama's favor. Are they all zombies, too? I guess so, it just took them over two years to become mindless followers. Good thing they finally fell in line......it's just a ludicrous argument, and it treats the American people like idiots, which is something Republicans often accuse Democrats of doing.
I agree regarding most of this...worst friends, knowledge...all subjective.
Record of meaningful change though? I think you could state that as fact.
non-verbal communication is important. If memory serves me right, as per a Grad course I took a few years ago, Non-verbal communication makes up 80 to 85% communication...
perhaps people are combining verbal (substance) with non-verbal (visuals)....
c'mon ... you can't be serious!? ... what is your criteria for who counts as a "good" friend and a "bad" friend!?? ...
there are plenty of reasons to not vote for obama but this is akin to mccain's continuous links to bill ayers - it's grasping at straws; it's throwing shit out there and hoping some of it sticks ...
what you consider meaningful change and what i may be is subject to our value system ... how is it not a subjective opinion?
Yes, I do ask for respect for several reasons. For one, he questioned my ability to think clearly about the issues, and I don't really like being called a zombie. And your 98% thing, that's a meaningless statistic. The worst most Obama supporters call McCain is 'four more years of Bush', which is pretty tame. So, once you say that the majority of Obama supporters have been pro-Obama rather than anti-McCain your argument doesn't hold any water. You are taking the most odious elements of some Obama supporters and applying them to all his supporters. Tell you what, if you are willing to not assume that all Obama supporters are as bad as you're saying, I promise not to assume that all Republicans think Obama is a terrorist and want him dead. I don't think it does anybody any good to apply the worst elements of a candidate's supporters to the entire damn population.
if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...
sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...
Who won the debate is a current opinion. It isn't like the polls reflecting a potential fact (like who is going to vote for each guy) because that changes. And for the debate, opinion matters.
Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?
You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"
This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.
He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.
You certainly cannot say that about McCain.
the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.
It's important because it's what peole see, but it is interpreted however they like, unlike stated verbal communication.
So the messager should be aware of this fact because it is a fact, but the people listening to the message should also be aware of the fact and try to realy analyze if they are letting body language effect their opinion of verbal communication. Sometime the body language will help determine the real truth in the verbal communication, other times it is just distracting.
Then, according to you, everything is subjective.
You can however give a framework for criteria and then apply it. But I guess you could do that with knowledge, worse friends as well...
So, I guess now that I;ve gone round and round, there are no facts, on subjective opinions based on criteria.
Um...where have you been?? Palin was found by a bi-partisan committee to have taken unethical action. FACT.
Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?
Subjective opinion based on certain criteria.
Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.
And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.
Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.
An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.
Who does it matter too? People that can't make up their own decisions based on what they research on their own? But rather will vote based on what a musician or actor says? Everyone has their own reasons for who they vote for and just because my reason differ from the next guy doesn't make me right and him wrong.
I don't necessarily buy that on just one side, what I see are quite a few folks tripping over themselves to vote to prove that "whitey's not racist".
There's giong to be some bigots, but they are a MINISCULE fraction of the voting public.
A normal wma with normal markers is 75. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
He has a history of cancer, a history of pow, he has severe disabilities (yes not being able to lift your arms over your head is a severe disability). Knowing this you can suspect with some confidence that he may not finish his first term. It's a natural deduction based on statistics.
I even suspect this is the main reason why Obama ended up with the most financial support from corporate origins : who would want to invest in a candidate with limited chances to finish his first term and I won't even speak of a second one?
oh yeah?
from the OFFICIAL finding, not some spin:
"I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooter was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was LIKELY a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a PROPER and LAWFUL exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads."
FACT, OFFICIAL RECORD, educate yourself with the official record, not the TV
The fact is, the guy was a piss-poor performer, and she was well withing her right to fire the guy. Wrong my patootee.
And again, the cop in question tazered her sisters SON.
You wanna protect kids or cops?
So, some perspective
Kind of. Yeah, everybody has them but in this case people are choosing between three things (win, loss or tie). It matters because when you have a contest, it is important to know who did a better job. While there are very few concrete evaluative techniques to use in such a subjective debate, grasping the public's opinion of who won is important. Was it a tie? Was it a victory for McCain? Was it a victory for Obama?
Debates are contests and trying to get a sense of who "won" is fun and interesting and could potentially affect who is our next president. So simply the fact that people "think" Obama won is a victory for him. That is why opinions matter.