Proper English

Ahnimus

I can't help but become slightly irked when a native english speaker misuses the language. I don't mean spelling mistakes, but grammar. I imagine it's similar with other languages where the speaker is native.

As an example. The usage of a and an is widely misunderstood. An is used only when the following noun starts with a vowel or the first sound, sounds like a vowel. E.g. An Egg, An Artist, An Hour. A is used in all other cases. E.g. A Question, A Fly, A Hotel.

wikipedia wrote:

An is the older form, now used before words starting with a vowel sound, regardless of whether the word begins with a vowel letter. Examples: a light-water reactor; an LWR; a HEPA filter (because HEPA is pronounced as a word rather than as letters); a hypothesis; an hour. However, it is still often considered proper to use an before any noun starting with h, therefore a hotel and an hotel are both acceptable, but the latter is falling out of use.

More examples: "a boy, a European, a j, a picture, a store, a table, a bottle, a window, a phone, a hyphen, a one-horse town" and "a united country, a usurper, a eulogy, a ewe, a U-boat" and "an entry, an f, an hour, an orange, an ape, an odor, an idea, an eagle, an honor, an umbrella, an unbeliever" and "a hotel, a house, a hill, a hymn, a honeycomb". [1]

"Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage is more descriptive than prescriptive, but it advises: You choose the article that suits your own pronunciation. Theodore Bernstein gives the straight vowel-sound-vs.-consonant-sound explanation but allows that you should indeed say "an hotel" if you think hotel is pronounced otel." [2]

I was listening to CBC Radio One just now and the host said "An Hotel" and it was like nails on a chalkboard.

The other thing that tends to irk me is saying "Irregardless" this is not a real word and is a double-negative.

wikipedia wrote:

The origin of irregardless is not known for certain, but the consensus among references is that it is a portmanteau of irrespective and regardless, both of which are commonly accepted standard English words. By blending these words, an illogical word is created. "Since the prefix ir- means 'not' (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means 'without,' irregardless is a double negative."[1]. (Cf. inflammable, flammable.)

Irregardless is primarily found in North America, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, and was first acknowledged in 1912 by the Wentworth American Dialect Dictionary as originating from western Indiana. Barely a decade later, the usage dispute over irregardless was such that, in 1923, Literary Digest published an article entitled "Is There Such a Word as Irregardless in the English Language?"[2]

Does anyone else get irked by things like this?

brainofPJ

most def...

when my friends do it i can forgive them. but having actually heard it on the news and the radio from 'intelligent' people really makes me want to blow a gasket

Vedderlution_Baby

I think the one that is misused the most is "your" and "you're". Come on. Where you out that day at first grade and NEVER fucking caught up?

norm

There is not enough bandwidth to handle the amount of rage I have toward the bastardation of the English language.

brainofPJ

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

I think the one that is misused the most is "your" and "you're". Come on. Where you out that day at first grade and NEVER fucking caught up?

i'm thinking you did this on purpose but...

'were' you out

Vedderlution_Baby

Actually I had to go piss really bad so I just typed. But rest assured, my face is now red.


Correction: Were.


I'm sorry my brothers...I have let you down.


By the way, Your a dick.

Ahnimus

A lot of people don't seem to realize the apostrophe goes in place of the vowel as well.

E.g. You're, rather than Your'e. We're, rather than Wer'e.

brainofPJ

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Actually I had to go piss really bad so I just typed. But rest assured, my face is now red.


Correction: Were.


I'm sorry my brothers...I have let you down.


By the way, Your a dick.

thanks chubbs

hippiemom

cutback wrote:

There is not enough bandwidth to handle the amount of rage I have toward the bastardation of the English language.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

"To" and "too" is another one that people can't seem to grasp, and you see it all over the place.

I could go on and on, but let's just cut to the chase .... you KNOW this thread will wind up as a discussion about people who say "I could care less."

Ahnimus

I ain't gonna let no body say no thing about no "I could care less" statements.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Ahnimus wrote:

I can't help but become slightly irked when a native english speaker misuses the language.

Unless you're a post-colonial linguistic theorist, you should have capitalised/capitalized English.

Abookamongstthemany

I could care less as long as I get the point. There's enough stuff to stress myself out with in the world. This one just doesn't seem like a biggie to me.

kenny olav

Ahnimus wrote:

I was listening to CBC Radio One just now and the host said "An Hotel" and it was like nails on a chalkboard.

Does anyone else get irked by things like this?

I don't know. Did he say it with a French accent... like "an 'otel"?

Ahnimus

Kenny Olav wrote:

I don't know. Did he say it with a French accent... like "an 'otel"?

Nope

moeaholic

yeah, i get bugged by that shit too. one that i can't figure out though: is it "an historical event" or "a historical event"?

FinsburyParkCarrots

moeaholic wrote:

yeah, i get bugged by that shit too. one that i can't figure out though: is it "an historical event" or "a historical event"?

Both are acceptable. "Histoire" is a French word (from the Greek). When the Normans invaded England in 1066, they made a deep impression on Anglo Saxon language.

One needs to remember that standardisation of grammar and spelling largely happened contemporaneously, with the growth of British colonialism and print culture, mainly in the eighteenth century. It seemed the logic of the British was: if you were going to hegemonise another territory, you also needed to homogenise the form to authorise the content of the discourse.

This had a big effect on all areas of print, including the novel: just contrast Daniel Defoe's writings, around 1719, with Jane Austen's, about eighty or ninety years later, and you'll see an enormous difference, in terms of grammatical standardisation. And think about the creation of the OED, and what happened to the language in the era of Johnson, and of Boswell ... Maybe the English language was much better before then. Well, we haven't had a rival to Shakespeare, since, have we?

Abookamongstthemany

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Both are acceptable. "Histoire" is a French word (from the Greek). When the Normans invaded England in 1066, they made a deep impression on Anglo Saxon language.

I should get a big post-it and write "Unacceptable" and stick it my forehead.

moeaholic

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Both are acceptable. "Histoire" is a French word (from the Greek). When the Normans invaded England in 1066, they made a deep impression on Anglo Saxon language.

thanks

Ahnimus

moeaholic wrote:

yeah, i get bugged by that shit too. one that i can't figure out though: is it "an historical event" or "a historical event"?

Well, personally any word begining with an H where the H is pronounced should be lead by an A. In french Histoire, from what I understand the H isn't really pronounced. As in the song Geld oder Lieb by Massive Töne feat. Tairo, Tairo sings "C'est une longue histoire" they don't really pronounce the H in that particular song.

Chorus:
Jetzt ist Rap groß, Respekt für mad Flows
Respekt für mad shows
Das Geschäft boomt
Jetzt ist Rap groß, Respekt für mad flows
Respekt für mad shows
Jetzt geht's los!
Chorus (Tairo)2x:
C'est une longue histoire
Et tu vas la raconter (jetzt ist Rap groß)
Le monde peut te recevoir (das Geschäft boomt)
tel que tu es (jetzt geht's los!)

Ahnimus

I guess to best explain it, in English typically we have a consonant sound followed by a vowel sound followed by a consonant sound. We don't typically have two consonant sounds in a row, which is the case with "an historical event"

If you say "a hour to go" you have two vowal sounds in a row. So it's "an hour to go"

Collin

Which is correct: 'a hotel' or 'an hotel', 'a historian' or 'an historian'? And why is it 'a European' not 'an European'?


The form an for the indefinite article is used before a spoken vowel sound, regardless of how the written word is spelt. If you say 'an otel' when speaking (which is now often regarded as distinctly old-fashioned), then it may be appropriate for you to write 'an hotel'; but most people say 'hotel' with a sounded 'h', and should write 'a hotel'.

By contrast, words such as 'honour', 'heir' or 'hour' in which the 'h' sound is dropped are written with 'an'. Americans who drop the 'h' in 'herb' may also prefer to write 'an herb', but in standard British pronunciation the 'h' is sounded, and 'a herb' is therefore correct in writing. Because 'European' is said with an initial 'y' sound, which counts as a consonantal sound in English speech, it is said (and written) with 'a' not 'an'. An abbreviation such as M.P., which is pronounced em pea, begins with a spoken vowel, and so it is 'an M.P.'