I have said consistently that 95% of our population is considered co-dependent in terms of needing to develop addictions and disorders of all kinds in order to meet stifled emotional needs. Yes, again, that's 95%. Rageaholics, workaholics, those who hide from their problems in religion. Any addiction, compulsion, maybe to porn, video games, coffee/sugar/nicotine addiction. etc..... I will say it again: 95% of the population has been trained to stifle their emotions from childhood and it's reinforced on all levels of our society. Therefore these people act out disordered behaviours in numerous ways. Compulsive eating is one.
I do think 2/3 of the population is showing the underlying cause of emotional neglect in North America quite well. The question is when will the problem solving start to filter down to the people. When will the masses evolve in order to find resolution and understanding, rather than sit in ugly judgment? It seems not for awhile.
if 95% of us are "messed up" maybe that means that that is normal? maybe that's how humans are built and it's stupid and fruitless to talk about "righting" ourselves when that is how we are built.
if 95% of us are "messed up" maybe that means that that is normal? maybe that's how humans are built and it's stupid and fruitless to talk about "righting" ourselves when that is how we are built.
It is normal; it is not healthy. We evolved the emotional centers in our brain for reasons that help us adapt to our surroundings. When we are taught by our also-co-dependent caregivers to ignore our inner feedback to the degree that we develop pathology, this is learned behaviour. As such it can also be unlearned. The small percentage who are not living in a crippled manner, and who have activated their own potential were either initially taught healthy ways to hone, balance and integrate their innate emotional intelligence, or they uncovered the understanding along the way (often through healing disorders). This is by no means something for a certain few who are "designed a special way". This is the human potential--our birthright.
This is exactly where we are evolutionarily at this time. Also I am here saying these words for my exact evolutionary purpose, too. I'm for movement, awareness, discernment of information, letting go of biases, and finding information that clears up ignorance, among other things.
Either way, terms such as lazy being used so readily show how overweight people are still openly stigmatized.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It is normal; it is not healthy. We evolved the emotional centers in our brain for reasons that help us adapt to our surroundings. When we are taught by our also-co-dependent caregivers to ignore our inner feedback to the degree that we develop pathology, this is learned behaviour. As such it can also be unlearned. The small percentage who are not living in a crippled manner, and who have activated their own potential were either initially taught healthy ways to hone, balance and integrate their innate emotional intelligence, or they uncovered the understanding along the way (often through healing disorders). This is by no means something for a certain few who are "designed a special way". This is the human potential--our birthright.
This is exactly where we are evolutionarily at this time. Also I am here saying these words for my exact evolutionary purpose, too. I'm for movement, awareness, discernment of information, letting go of biases, and finding information that clears up ignorance, among other things.
Either way, terms such as lazy being used so readily show how overweight people are still openly stigmatized.
we make lifestyle decisions every day. ive suffered through addiction/compulsion before too. i did not sit there and console myself saying "well, i was born this way" or "it's society's fault for not understanding my feelings." you have a choice... you can continue to live the way you are and suffer the consequences, or you can try to change. those who have no desire to change (and there are a great many of them... as evidence by liposuction: get thin without any work) get no sympathy from me. when you're aware of a way out of many of your problems and you simply choose not to take it becos it's too hard, then you can't blame others for your plight. i didnt cry myself to sleep when people called me a fucking lush, becos it was true. i knew what i had to do to get out, but i didnt want to do it. if someone genuinely wants to change and reaches out or works towards it, i will be the first to extend my hand and offer support becos when i decided i wanted to change people were there to help me too. but i dont think people were wrong or bad for writing me off as pathetic when i rejected every way out offered to me. likewise, if someone is overweight and does not care and has no interest in changing it, then i have no qualms saying their fatness is due to laziness. most of the time, i dont care. it's their business not mine. but when one of them squeezes me into the aisle of a plane cos they wont buy the 2 seats they need and then accuses me of being a jerk for not accepting them as they are (if they accepted themselves as they are, they'd be willing to admit that who they are is someone too big for one plane seat), then i have a problem.
we make lifestyle decisions every day. ive suffered through addiction/compulsion before too. i did not sit there and console myself saying "well, i was born this way" or "it's society's fault for not understanding my feelings." you have a choice... you can continue to live the way you are and suffer the consequences, or you can try to change. those who have no desire to change (and there are a great many of them... as evidence by liposuction: get thin without any work) get no sympathy from me. when you're aware of a way out of many of your problems and you simply choose not to take it becos it's too hard, then you can't blame others for your plight. i didnt cry myself to sleep when people called me a fucking lush, becos it was true. i knew what i had to do to get out, but i didnt want to do it. if someone genuinely wants to change and reaches out or works towards it, i will be the first to extend my hand and offer support becos when i decided i wanted to change people were there to help me too. but i dont think people were wrong or bad for writing me off as pathetic when i rejected every way out offered to me. likewise, if someone is overweight and does not care and has no interest in changing it, then i have no qualms saying their fatness is due to laziness. most of the time, i dont care. it's their business not mine. but when one of them squeezes me into the aisle of a plane cos they wont buy the 2 seats they need and then accuses me of being a jerk for not accepting them as they are (if they accepted themselves as they are, they'd be willing to admit that who they are is someone too big for one plane seat), then i have a problem.
You're certainly entitled to you personal judgments of others. They reflect on you, and not the objective, factual truth of the situation of the other person. that's all.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You're certainly entitled to you personal judgments of others. They reflect on you, and not the objective, factual truth of the situation of the other person. that's all.
they can reflect on both. you cannot sit here and honestly tell me that nobody is ever to blame for their lot in life. that nobody out there who is fat is fat simply becos they're lazy and would rather eat a bag of chips than go to the gym. are you honestly trying to tell me that nobody like that exists? that every single last one of them is simply tragically and woefully oppressed and should not be held accountable for their decisions becos it's mommy's fault that they're fat? that we should all band together to buy them liposuction and tell them they're beautiful becos telling them their lifestyle is dangerous might hurt their feelings? freud's theories were debunked long ago... not every problem in everyone's life is a direct result of their mommy and daddy not loving them right. sometimes, people simply make bad choices.
do you support allowing child molesters to have their way with children becos it's not their fault? they're just victims of a compulsion they cannot control. we shouldn't tell them what they do is bad by your logic.
they can reflect on both. you cannot sit here and honestly tell me that nobody is ever to blame for their lot in life. that nobody out there who is fat is fat simply becos they're lazy and would rather eat a bag of chips than go to the gym. are you honestly trying to tell me that nobody like that exists? that every single last one of them is simply tragically and woefully oppressed and should not be held accountable for their decisions becos it's mommy's fault that they're fat? that we should all band together to buy them liposuction and tell them they're beautiful becos telling them their lifestyle is dangerous might hurt their feelings?
I believe angelica is trying to tell you why these people do these things. People are not lazy just because. People don't eat chips just because. People don't skip the gym just because. Every action has a root, and the root of human action is rarely just random chance.
I believe angelica is trying to tell you why these people do these things. People are not lazy just because. People don't eat chips just because. People don't skip the gym just because. Every action has a root, and the root of human action is rarely just random chance.
Thank-you. Yes. We can say it's right, wrong, lazy, not-lazy. Our value judgments are independant of the cause and effect relationship.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
they can reflect on both. you cannot sit here and honestly tell me that nobody is ever to blame for their lot in life. that nobody out there who is fat is fat simply becos they're lazy and would rather eat a bag of chips than go to the gym. are you honestly trying to tell me that nobody like that exists? that every single last one of them is simply tragically and woefully oppressed and should not be held accountable for their decisions becos it's mommy's fault that they're fat? that we should all band together to buy them liposuction and tell them they're beautiful becos telling them their lifestyle is dangerous might hurt their feelings? freud's theories were debunked long ago... not every problem in everyone's life is a direct result of their mommy and daddy not loving them right. sometimes, people simply make bad choices.
do you support allowing child molesters to have their way with children becos it's not their fault? they're just victims of a compulsion they cannot control. we shouldn't tell them what they do is bad by your logic.
I not only believe but I know each person is entirely accountable for exactly what they do and do not do, and what result they receive as consequence. I said earlier that overweight people live their consequences each and every day.
However, I believe that "blame" is an emotional issue, and when we are crossing to the level of blame, there is a sense that one is acting parental towards another for their choices. When we get parental towards another, we are coming from a place of imbalance. I find this often reflects our own sense of blame for our own issues, and that we are not at peace for our own poor choices, but rather still have our own parent-tapes playing in our own heads distorting our neutrality. When we actually get it and understand, we show it by acting understanding, not by using words that imply shaming, when shame, by the way, is the glue that holds a lot of co-dependence issues in place.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Our value judgments are independant of the cause and effect relationship.
Not only that, our value judgments should be irrelevant. Unfortunately, we now live in a world where my fat is your obligation, so I am not surprised that we are now digging trenches over the costs involved for such individuals.
Not only that, our value judgments should be irrelevant. Unfortunately, we now live in a world where my fat is your obligation, so I am not surprised that we are now digging trenches over the costs involved for such individuals.
but your fat is causing problems for me everytime you try to squeeze into a seat next to me. if you want to compare it to other compulsions that's fine, i agree for the most part. but regardless, you bear certain consequences for it. compare it to smoking. i dont care why you smoke, and i wont stop you from doing it. but you're not allowed to smoke on a plane becos it interferes with the people around you. you all say it's still ok to discriminate against fat people, i say the reverse is also true: they're one of the few not held accountable for their choices. smokers have higher insurance rates and must exercise certain consideration in when and where they do it. but overweight people bitch about higher insurance rates (despite being a greater risk) and hit the roof anytime someone suggest that larger people ought to adapt and take into consideration the fact that they can't fit into one plane seat.
and if we're going to say that the cause of everyone's action is not of their own making and is only due to environmental stimuli, we can NEVER hold anyone accountable for their actions. the murderer does not murder becos he chose to, he murdered becos his mother never taught him to be in touch with his emotions and so really it is HER fault. but it isnt her fault becos her daddy spanker her when she was 6, so it's HIS fault. but it's not his fault becos he was raised in the 20s by manly men and so it's that society's fault. it never ends. at a certain point you have to say i dont care what your "reasons" for you choices are, you made the choices and this is how it looks to the outside world. if i dont do my work on the job, maybe it's cos i had a shitty day and no sleep and im tired. but does that mean my boss isn't allowed to fire me for being lazy when it's causing him problems?
but your fat is causing problems for me everytime you try to squeeze into a seat next to me.
Not really, no. Your only right to that seat is based on the rules of the airline that sold it to you.
if you want to compare it to other compulsions that's fine, i agree for the most part. but regardless, you bear certain consequences for it. compare it to smoking. i dont care why you smoke, and i wont stop you from doing it. but you're not allowed to smoke on a plane becos it interferes with the people around you.
Ideally, I'm not allowed to smoke on a plane because the airline that owns the plane decided that they don't want people smoking on their planes and I agreed to those terms when I purchased a ticket.
You have no right to a lack of interference in your life just because you don't want it.
you all say it's still ok to discriminate against fat people, i say the reverse is also true: they're one of the few not held accountable for their choices.
That's not really true. Airlines now charge them double. They die young. There's much accountability in this world for the obese, and that's the way it should be.
Smokers have higher insurance rates and must exercise certain consideration in when and where they do it. but overweight people bitch about higher insurance rates (despite being a greater risk) and hit the roof anytime someone suggest that larger people ought to adapt and take into consideration the fact that they can't fit into one plane seat.
I agree with this.
and if we're going to say that the cause of everyone's action is not of their own making and is only due to environmental stimuli, we can NEVER hold anyone accountable for their actions.
Of course we can. People make choices. However, choices are almost universally affected by environmental stimuli. The existence and affects of that stimuli do not absolve people for their role as the ultimate decision maker.
the murderer does not murder becos he chose to, he murdered becos his mother never taught him to be in touch with his emotions and so really it is HER fault.
No -- the murderer chose to murder in part because his mother was a bad mother. But his mother did not make the ultimate decision.
but does that mean my boss isn't allowed to fire me for being lazy when it's causing him problems?
Frued's Psychoanalytic theories are not debunked. They are still a valuable tool in developmental psychology. Freud just didn't have all the answers, he only saw one causality. He was the father of developmental psychology after all.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the final word
on nutrition and health:
1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.
2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.
3. Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than
us.
4. Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart
attacks than us.
5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer
heart attacks than us.
CONCLUSION:
Eat and drink what you like.
Speaking English is apparently what kills you!
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I agree too. There is an absolute epidemic in this country. I certainly don't think everyone should be model thin but it is so unhealthy to be overweight.
I agree too. There is an absolute epidemic in this country. I certainly don't think everyone should be model thin but it is so unhealthy to be overweight.
Well, first consider that our perceptions have changed, what was healthy looking last century is obese this century. Now we expect everyone to be super-anerexic models, which isn't healthy. You can be healthier with a bit of stored fat and all of your nutrients, then thin as a board and malnourished.
So perhaps, thin people should pay higher insurance or be stigmatized.
I remember watching this lecture from HHMI, one of the students in the audience asked a question about being slim and sexy and the lecturer responded "I'd rather see everyone be healthy."
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well, first consider that our perceptions have changed, what was healthy looking last century is obese this century. Now we expect everyone to be super-anerexic models, which isn't healthy. You can be healthier with a bit of stored fat and all of your nutrients, then thin as a board and malnourished.
So perhaps, thin people should pay higher insurance or be stigmatized.
I remember watching this lecture from HHMI, one of the students in the audience asked a question about being slim and sexy and the lecturer responded "I'd rather see everyone be healthy."
nobody here has said thin as a board or super-model anorexic is healthy. nor can you pretend that obese people are healthier. there is a difference between normal, healthy body weight and obesity. there is also a difference between normal, healthy body weight and anorexia. just becos at 6 feet tall it was not good for me to weigh 130 pounds, doesn't make it suddenly healthy for me to weigh 300 pounds.
nobody here has said thin as a board or super-model anorexic is healthy. nor can you pretend that obese people are healthier. there is a difference between normal, healthy body weight and obesity. there is also a difference between normal, healthy body weight and anorexia. just becos at 6 feet tall it was not good for me to weigh 130 pounds, doesn't make it suddenly healthy for me to weigh 300 pounds.
The point is, you don't hear too many people complaining about anorexic or bulemic people. Probably because those models are "hot".
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
do you support allowing child molesters to have their way with children becos it's not their fault? they're just victims of a compulsion they cannot control. we shouldn't tell them what they do is bad by your logic.
First of all, let's differentiate between your interpretation of "my logic" and my actual logic. I said this in a thread a few days ago:
Another thing I know from my mental health history is that no matter how delusional I've been, I was firmly held to accountability for my actions. In the issue of my accountability, my past and what brought me to such a place was irrelevent. My accountability for my actions WAS relevent. No one else is in charge of my actions--delusional or sane. For example, I was seriously disabled with delusions, but I was still expected to feed my children, being a single mom. This, even though I thought my kids and myself were ethereal beings who did not need human nourishment. I'm legally entitled to believe what I choose, but I am legally obliged to adequately care for my kids. My behaviour was questioned and analyzed and lines of action against me were put into play through proper channels. Granted my own strategizing was not in a great place and the strategies against me effectively led to my hospitalization and being medicated and thusly returned to normal functioning. I do not now, nor did I then have any problem with this type of common sense. If anything I realize all the more how important it is and that it is only fair to hold each individual to their accountability. Truth dictates it. And thank God accountability it helped me find better ways, whereas excuses and justifications did not.
I feel this way about All people. I also am grateful that we live in a society in which the "proper channels" do not condone using stigmatizing, shaming words when addressing accountability. Which is not to say that sometimes shaming individuals don't warp such "proper channels" by acting inappropriately.
but your fat is causing problems for me everytime you try to squeeze into a seat next to me. if you want to compare it to other compulsions that's fine, i agree for the most part. but regardless, you bear certain consequences for it. compare it to smoking. i dont care why you smoke, and i wont stop you from doing it. but you're not allowed to smoke on a plane becos it interferes with the people around you. you all say it's still ok to discriminate against fat people, i say the reverse is also true: they're one of the few not held accountable for their choices. smokers have higher insurance rates and must exercise certain consideration in when and where they do it. but overweight people bitch about higher insurance rates (despite being a greater risk) and hit the roof anytime someone suggest that larger people ought to adapt and take into consideration the fact that they can't fit into one plane seat.
Great. I have no problem with people intelligently calling out actual issues. Calling people "lazy" is counterproductive and contributes to the problem. Seeking ways to resolve these issues is productive, if done without insulting emotionally based words.
and if we're going to say that the cause of everyone's action is not of their own making and is only due to environmental stimuli, we can NEVER hold anyone accountable for their actions. the murderer does not murder becos he chose to, he murdered becos his mother never taught him to be in touch with his emotions and so really it is HER fault. but it isnt her fault becos her daddy spanker her when she was 6, so it's HIS fault. but it's not his fault becos he was raised in the 20s by manly men and so it's that society's fault. it never ends. at a certain point you have to say i dont care what your "reasons" for you choices are, you made the choices and this is how it looks to the outside world. if i dont do my work on the job, maybe it's cos i had a shitty day and no sleep and im tired. but does that mean my boss isn't allowed to fire me for being lazy when it's causing him problems?
I haven't seen anyone excuse overweight people of accountability for their lives or their actions in this thread. Maybe I'm missing something. About "this is how it looks to the outside world", fine, the outside world has their opinions, but those who have greater understanding of the variables to such situations are going to see lack of understanding when it exists. I'm okay with that if you are.
Ahnimus is correct: Freud's theories were not debunked. It's clear that our genetic material is molded by our environments from birth. Aka: we are a product of all our influences, including the very heavy influences of our caregivers from birth through our tender years of childhood development and further.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The point is, you don't hear too many people complaining about anorexic or bulemic people. Probably because those models are "hot".
it's also b/c you can hide anorexia and bulemia a lot easier. Baggy clothes, long pants, long sleeves you can hide a lot of eating disorders. Plus the people in the news who are anorexic...think people magazine types are criticized for their weight (or lack thereof). plus obesity affects both men and women in large numbers. Some men do suffer from eating disorders but it's not nearly on the order that women do, so again, it's not as noticeable.
n 2003-2004, 17.1% of US children and adolescents were overweight and 32.2% of adults were obese"
Anorexia nervosa affects one to five percent of the population. Ninety percent of anorexics are women between the ages of 13 and 20.
The numbers just aren't as alarming for Eating disorders as tehy are for obesity; that and when you're on an airplane no one is going to complain about someone not spilling over into their seat etc...
I agree the fashion industry makes women try to be more skinny but there's also more at play.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
it's also b/c you can hide anorexia and bulemia a lot easier. Baggy clothes, long pants, long sleeves you can hide a lot of eating disorders. Plus the people in the news who are anorexic...think people magazine types are criticized for their weight (or lack thereof). plus obesity affects both men and women in large numbers. Some men do suffer from eating disorders but it's not nearly on the order that women do, so again, it's not as noticeable.
n 2003-2004, 17.1% of US children and adolescents were overweight and 32.2% of adults were obese"
Anorexia nervosa affects one to five percent of the population. Ninety percent of anorexics are women between the ages of 13 and 20.
The numbers just aren't as alarming for Eating disorders as tehy are for obesity; that and when you're on an airplane no one is going to complain about someone not spilling over into their seat etc...
I agree the fashion industry makes women try to be more skinny but there's also more at play.
Good point about anorexia and bulemia being hidden. I've always appeared "normal" because I've balanced my binging with starvation.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
it's also b/c you can hide anorexia and bulemia a lot easier. Baggy clothes, long pants, long sleeves you can hide a lot of eating disorders. Plus the people in the news who are anorexic...think people magazine types are criticized for their weight (or lack thereof). plus obesity affects both men and women in large numbers. Some men do suffer from eating disorders but it's not nearly on the order that women do, so again, it's not as noticeable.
n 2003-2004, 17.1% of US children and adolescents were overweight and 32.2% of adults were obese"
Anorexia nervosa affects one to five percent of the population. Ninety percent of anorexics are women between the ages of 13 and 20.
The numbers just aren't as alarming for Eating disorders as tehy are for obesity; that and when you're on an airplane no one is going to complain about someone not spilling over into their seat etc...
I agree the fashion industry makes women try to be more skinny but there's also more at play.
That is some interesting logic, how does it apply to this scenario.
Charlie Manson runs a dump out in the desert where people that don't fit into society congregate. Some of those people commited murders.
Charles Starkweather and his 16 yr old Girlfriend are two psychopaths bent on serial killing. They murder her parents and 2 yr old sister, then go on to murder 8 more people.
Applying your logic to this scenario, we should concentrate our efforts on the Starkweather murders because they are more abundant. We can leave the Manson murders until some time after we've caught Starkweather.
Is that about it?
Because you are saying that even though anarexia is a serious health problem, it's not as annoying as obesity, so therefor it can be left alone while society concentrates it's descrimination on obesity?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Applying your logic to this scenario, we should concentrate our efforts on the Starkweather murders because they are more abundant. We can leave the Manson murders until some time after we've caught Starkweather.
Is that about it?
Because you are saying that even though anarexia is a serious health problem, it's not as annoying as obesity, so therefor it can be left alone while society concentrates it's descrimination on obesity?
No, what I'm saying is that people aren't as annoyed by anorexia b/c of the sheer numbers. Both obesity and anorexia have serious health issues and both need to be addressed.
I'm not saying we leave anything alone...where did you pull that from? We need to address both of the issues; the fact of the matter is, people (society) get more annoyed by obese people b/c they are more abundant and more easy to pick out. Anorexics are able to hide the disorder easier, until it gets down to the extreme weights. Look at athletics, esp womens athletics in cross country. Many in that sport have problems associated with anorexia / bulemia b/c they lose their menstrual cycle. But no one besides them knows they aren't ovulating on a normal schedule or are developing osteoporosis.
Please don't try to assume my logic. We need to care for both extremes of disordered eating.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
No, what I'm saying is that people aren't as annoyed by anorexia b/c of the sheer numbers. Both obesity and anorexia have serious health issues and both need to be addressed.
I'm not saying we leave anything alone...where did you pull that from? We need to address both of the issues; the fact of the matter is, people (society) get more annoyed by obese people b/c they are more abundant and more easy to pick out. Anorexics are able to hide the disorder easier, until it gets down to the extreme weights. Look at athletics, esp womens athletics in cross country. Many in that sport have problems associated with anorexia / bulemia b/c they lose their menstrual cycle. But no one besides them knows they aren't ovulating on a normal schedule or are developing osteoporosis.
Please don't try to assume my logic. We need to care for both extremes of disordered eating.
Ok, well I was just trying to get clarification of your logic.
What do you propose we do as a society?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
We've got weird standards, too, in that we shame the overweight person, but applaud the compulsive workaholic. Caffeine addiction is completely condoned, and yet truly, addictions have far reaching ramifications in terms of stunting our very humanity, even if it's "just" a sugar one.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Ok, well I was just trying to get clarification of your logic.
What do you propose we do as a society?
1. educate physicians in how to better deal with patients who are obese / anorexic. And help with early interventions (i.e. exercise / diet)
2. Fast food tax and make healthier food more affordable.
3. Start community exercise programs
4. Stop punishing kids by using exercise.
5. Get parents to be good roll models in health and exercise. If the parents sit around the house and eat fast food why would we expect the kids to be different. If parents model good "mechanics" it should be instilled in children.
6. educate coaches and parents in signs to look for for children who may be anorexic. Target the weight sensitive sports (gymnastics, wrestling, cross country) especially.
7. try to limit production of foods using HFCS and excess sodium.
8. Recognize that both my be manifestations of different problems (medical, social, psychological) and that those deeper problems can get dealt with.
Those would be a good start. Even just helping educate physicians and parents on how to talk to people who may be changing weight in an unhealthy pattern. It seems weight is one of the topics that challenges physicians b/c it's tough to bring those issues up b/c of fear of driving someone further into their set pattern.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
We've got weird standards, too, in that we shame the overweight person, but applaud the compulsive workaholic. Caffeine addiction is completely condoned, and yet truly, addictions have far reaching ramifications in terms of stunting our very humanity, even if it's "just" a sugar one.
I agree. We champion success and as long as you succeed it doesn't matter how, and that is sad. Think about how often families sit down to eat on a regular basis...we as a society forsake a lot just to get "ahead".
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I agree. We champion success and as long as you succeed it doesn't matter how, and that is sad. Think about how often families sit down to eat on a regular basis...we as a society forsake a lot just to get "ahead".
Sadly this is very true. We have the fallout all around us for such choices, too.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
1. educate physicians in how to better deal with patients who are obese / anorexic. And help with early interventions (i.e. exercise / diet)
2. Fast food tax and make healthier food more affordable.
3. Start community exercise programs
4. Stop punishing kids by using exercise.
5. Get parents to be good roll models in health and exercise. If the parents sit around the house and eat fast food why would we expect the kids to be different. If parents model good "mechanics" it should be instilled in children.
6. educate coaches and parents in signs to look for for children who may be anorexic. Target the weight sensitive sports (gymnastics, wrestling, cross country) especially.
7. try to limit production of foods using HFCS and excess sodium.
8. Recognize that both my be manifestations of different problems (medical, social, psychological) and that those deeper problems can get dealt with.
Those would be a good start. Even just helping educate physicians and parents on how to talk to people who may be changing weight in an unhealthy pattern. It seems weight is one of the topics that challenges physicians b/c it's tough to bring those issues up b/c of fear of driving someone further into their set pattern.
That all sounds great, a little bit like communist china, but, I assume you have a different method to deliver those mechanisms?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That all sounds great, a little bit like communist china, but, I assume you have a different method to deliver those mechanisms?
no it doesnt. I am merely trying to provide the educational opportunities for the most part. But no, i havne't given it much thought beyond this. There are other people who are much wiser and have the research and resources to come up with the plans.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
no it doesnt. I am merely trying to provide the educational opportunities for the most part. But no, i havne't given it much thought beyond this. There are other people who are much wiser and have the research and resources to come up with the plans.
Well, the process of societal evolution required to initiate those values is a long one indeed. It won't change overnight simply by telling people they are wrong. We have to make sure that everyone gets the same information from the same ecological system. I think by consistently lying to our children about pretty much everything, we are setting the stage for rebellion, and ultimately, it doesn't matter what we teach them when we lie about it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
if 95% of us are "messed up" maybe that means that that is normal? maybe that's how humans are built and it's stupid and fruitless to talk about "righting" ourselves when that is how we are built.
This is exactly where we are evolutionarily at this time. Also I am here saying these words for my exact evolutionary purpose, too. I'm for movement, awareness, discernment of information, letting go of biases, and finding information that clears up ignorance, among other things.
Either way, terms such as lazy being used so readily show how overweight people are still openly stigmatized.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
we make lifestyle decisions every day. ive suffered through addiction/compulsion before too. i did not sit there and console myself saying "well, i was born this way" or "it's society's fault for not understanding my feelings." you have a choice... you can continue to live the way you are and suffer the consequences, or you can try to change. those who have no desire to change (and there are a great many of them... as evidence by liposuction: get thin without any work) get no sympathy from me. when you're aware of a way out of many of your problems and you simply choose not to take it becos it's too hard, then you can't blame others for your plight. i didnt cry myself to sleep when people called me a fucking lush, becos it was true. i knew what i had to do to get out, but i didnt want to do it. if someone genuinely wants to change and reaches out or works towards it, i will be the first to extend my hand and offer support becos when i decided i wanted to change people were there to help me too. but i dont think people were wrong or bad for writing me off as pathetic when i rejected every way out offered to me. likewise, if someone is overweight and does not care and has no interest in changing it, then i have no qualms saying their fatness is due to laziness. most of the time, i dont care. it's their business not mine. but when one of them squeezes me into the aisle of a plane cos they wont buy the 2 seats they need and then accuses me of being a jerk for not accepting them as they are (if they accepted themselves as they are, they'd be willing to admit that who they are is someone too big for one plane seat), then i have a problem.
You're certainly entitled to you personal judgments of others. They reflect on you, and not the objective, factual truth of the situation of the other person. that's all.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
they can reflect on both. you cannot sit here and honestly tell me that nobody is ever to blame for their lot in life. that nobody out there who is fat is fat simply becos they're lazy and would rather eat a bag of chips than go to the gym. are you honestly trying to tell me that nobody like that exists? that every single last one of them is simply tragically and woefully oppressed and should not be held accountable for their decisions becos it's mommy's fault that they're fat? that we should all band together to buy them liposuction and tell them they're beautiful becos telling them their lifestyle is dangerous might hurt their feelings? freud's theories were debunked long ago... not every problem in everyone's life is a direct result of their mommy and daddy not loving them right. sometimes, people simply make bad choices.
do you support allowing child molesters to have their way with children becos it's not their fault? they're just victims of a compulsion they cannot control. we shouldn't tell them what they do is bad by your logic.
I believe angelica is trying to tell you why these people do these things. People are not lazy just because. People don't eat chips just because. People don't skip the gym just because. Every action has a root, and the root of human action is rarely just random chance.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I not only believe but I know each person is entirely accountable for exactly what they do and do not do, and what result they receive as consequence. I said earlier that overweight people live their consequences each and every day.
However, I believe that "blame" is an emotional issue, and when we are crossing to the level of blame, there is a sense that one is acting parental towards another for their choices. When we get parental towards another, we are coming from a place of imbalance. I find this often reflects our own sense of blame for our own issues, and that we are not at peace for our own poor choices, but rather still have our own parent-tapes playing in our own heads distorting our neutrality. When we actually get it and understand, we show it by acting understanding, not by using words that imply shaming, when shame, by the way, is the glue that holds a lot of co-dependence issues in place.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Not only that, our value judgments should be irrelevant. Unfortunately, we now live in a world where my fat is your obligation, so I am not surprised that we are now digging trenches over the costs involved for such individuals.
but your fat is causing problems for me everytime you try to squeeze into a seat next to me. if you want to compare it to other compulsions that's fine, i agree for the most part. but regardless, you bear certain consequences for it. compare it to smoking. i dont care why you smoke, and i wont stop you from doing it. but you're not allowed to smoke on a plane becos it interferes with the people around you. you all say it's still ok to discriminate against fat people, i say the reverse is also true: they're one of the few not held accountable for their choices. smokers have higher insurance rates and must exercise certain consideration in when and where they do it. but overweight people bitch about higher insurance rates (despite being a greater risk) and hit the roof anytime someone suggest that larger people ought to adapt and take into consideration the fact that they can't fit into one plane seat.
and if we're going to say that the cause of everyone's action is not of their own making and is only due to environmental stimuli, we can NEVER hold anyone accountable for their actions. the murderer does not murder becos he chose to, he murdered becos his mother never taught him to be in touch with his emotions and so really it is HER fault. but it isnt her fault becos her daddy spanker her when she was 6, so it's HIS fault. but it's not his fault becos he was raised in the 20s by manly men and so it's that society's fault. it never ends. at a certain point you have to say i dont care what your "reasons" for you choices are, you made the choices and this is how it looks to the outside world. if i dont do my work on the job, maybe it's cos i had a shitty day and no sleep and im tired. but does that mean my boss isn't allowed to fire me for being lazy when it's causing him problems?
Not really, no. Your only right to that seat is based on the rules of the airline that sold it to you.
Ideally, I'm not allowed to smoke on a plane because the airline that owns the plane decided that they don't want people smoking on their planes and I agreed to those terms when I purchased a ticket.
You have no right to a lack of interference in your life just because you don't want it.
That's not really true. Airlines now charge them double. They die young. There's much accountability in this world for the obese, and that's the way it should be.
I agree with this.
Of course we can. People make choices. However, choices are almost universally affected by environmental stimuli. The existence and affects of that stimuli do not absolve people for their role as the ultimate decision maker.
No -- the murderer chose to murder in part because his mother was a bad mother. But his mother did not make the ultimate decision.
Ceratinly not.
THE FINAL WORD ON NUTRITION
After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the final word
on nutrition and health:
1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.
2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.
3. Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than
us.
4. Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart
attacks than us.
5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer
heart attacks than us.
CONCLUSION:
Eat and drink what you like.
Speaking English is apparently what kills you!
Well, first consider that our perceptions have changed, what was healthy looking last century is obese this century. Now we expect everyone to be super-anerexic models, which isn't healthy. You can be healthier with a bit of stored fat and all of your nutrients, then thin as a board and malnourished.
So perhaps, thin people should pay higher insurance or be stigmatized.
I remember watching this lecture from HHMI, one of the students in the audience asked a question about being slim and sexy and the lecturer responded "I'd rather see everyone be healthy."
nobody here has said thin as a board or super-model anorexic is healthy. nor can you pretend that obese people are healthier. there is a difference between normal, healthy body weight and obesity. there is also a difference between normal, healthy body weight and anorexia. just becos at 6 feet tall it was not good for me to weigh 130 pounds, doesn't make it suddenly healthy for me to weigh 300 pounds.
The point is, you don't hear too many people complaining about anorexic or bulemic people. Probably because those models are "hot".
First of all, let's differentiate between your interpretation of "my logic" and my actual logic. I said this in a thread a few days ago:
I feel this way about All people. I also am grateful that we live in a society in which the "proper channels" do not condone using stigmatizing, shaming words when addressing accountability. Which is not to say that sometimes shaming individuals don't warp such "proper channels" by acting inappropriately.
Great. I have no problem with people intelligently calling out actual issues. Calling people "lazy" is counterproductive and contributes to the problem. Seeking ways to resolve these issues is productive, if done without insulting emotionally based words.
I haven't seen anyone excuse overweight people of accountability for their lives or their actions in this thread. Maybe I'm missing something. About "this is how it looks to the outside world", fine, the outside world has their opinions, but those who have greater understanding of the variables to such situations are going to see lack of understanding when it exists. I'm okay with that if you are.
Ahnimus is correct: Freud's theories were not debunked. It's clear that our genetic material is molded by our environments from birth. Aka: we are a product of all our influences, including the very heavy influences of our caregivers from birth through our tender years of childhood development and further.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it's also b/c you can hide anorexia and bulemia a lot easier. Baggy clothes, long pants, long sleeves you can hide a lot of eating disorders. Plus the people in the news who are anorexic...think people magazine types are criticized for their weight (or lack thereof). plus obesity affects both men and women in large numbers. Some men do suffer from eating disorders but it's not nearly on the order that women do, so again, it's not as noticeable.
n 2003-2004, 17.1% of US children and adolescents were overweight and 32.2% of adults were obese"
Anorexia nervosa affects one to five percent of the population. Ninety percent of anorexics are women between the ages of 13 and 20.
The numbers just aren't as alarming for Eating disorders as tehy are for obesity; that and when you're on an airplane no one is going to complain about someone not spilling over into their seat etc...
I agree the fashion industry makes women try to be more skinny but there's also more at play.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That is some interesting logic, how does it apply to this scenario.
Charlie Manson runs a dump out in the desert where people that don't fit into society congregate. Some of those people commited murders.
Charles Starkweather and his 16 yr old Girlfriend are two psychopaths bent on serial killing. They murder her parents and 2 yr old sister, then go on to murder 8 more people.
Applying your logic to this scenario, we should concentrate our efforts on the Starkweather murders because they are more abundant. We can leave the Manson murders until some time after we've caught Starkweather.
Is that about it?
Because you are saying that even though anarexia is a serious health problem, it's not as annoying as obesity, so therefor it can be left alone while society concentrates it's descrimination on obesity?
No, what I'm saying is that people aren't as annoyed by anorexia b/c of the sheer numbers. Both obesity and anorexia have serious health issues and both need to be addressed.
I'm not saying we leave anything alone...where did you pull that from? We need to address both of the issues; the fact of the matter is, people (society) get more annoyed by obese people b/c they are more abundant and more easy to pick out. Anorexics are able to hide the disorder easier, until it gets down to the extreme weights. Look at athletics, esp womens athletics in cross country. Many in that sport have problems associated with anorexia / bulemia b/c they lose their menstrual cycle. But no one besides them knows they aren't ovulating on a normal schedule or are developing osteoporosis.
Please don't try to assume my logic. We need to care for both extremes of disordered eating.
Ok, well I was just trying to get clarification of your logic.
What do you propose we do as a society?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
1. educate physicians in how to better deal with patients who are obese / anorexic. And help with early interventions (i.e. exercise / diet)
2. Fast food tax and make healthier food more affordable.
3. Start community exercise programs
4. Stop punishing kids by using exercise.
5. Get parents to be good roll models in health and exercise. If the parents sit around the house and eat fast food why would we expect the kids to be different. If parents model good "mechanics" it should be instilled in children.
6. educate coaches and parents in signs to look for for children who may be anorexic. Target the weight sensitive sports (gymnastics, wrestling, cross country) especially.
7. try to limit production of foods using HFCS and excess sodium.
8. Recognize that both my be manifestations of different problems (medical, social, psychological) and that those deeper problems can get dealt with.
Those would be a good start. Even just helping educate physicians and parents on how to talk to people who may be changing weight in an unhealthy pattern. It seems weight is one of the topics that challenges physicians b/c it's tough to bring those issues up b/c of fear of driving someone further into their set pattern.
I agree. We champion success and as long as you succeed it doesn't matter how, and that is sad. Think about how often families sit down to eat on a regular basis...we as a society forsake a lot just to get "ahead".
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That all sounds great, a little bit like communist china, but, I assume you have a different method to deliver those mechanisms?
no it doesnt. I am merely trying to provide the educational opportunities for the most part. But no, i havne't given it much thought beyond this. There are other people who are much wiser and have the research and resources to come up with the plans.
Well, the process of societal evolution required to initiate those values is a long one indeed. It won't change overnight simply by telling people they are wrong. We have to make sure that everyone gets the same information from the same ecological system. I think by consistently lying to our children about pretty much everything, we are setting the stage for rebellion, and ultimately, it doesn't matter what we teach them when we lie about it.