If you really understood your own position, you'd understand that there is no "right" in your world. Furthermore, asking us to do something would be pretty silly. You'd be better off using a cattle prod.
Examine your own logic, and you'll see why you feel so helpless.
That's not how it works. Though with your attitude, a cattle prod sounds to be in order.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You don't need to examine every child. But when a child tortures an animal, it's indicative of mental problems and that the current system isn't working.
no, it's indicative of mental problems and that their parents aren't working. "the system" has no control over what goes on in that kid's home. now, once he tortures the animal, he could be put into therapy and his home life could be examined. at this point, yes, he deserves the benefit of the doubt and counseling. i will never advocate jailing children. and i think we ought to increase the system's power to respond to these sorts of incidents. but once you've been given these chances and you become an adult who knows this behavior is not acceptable even if you dont feel it, you are accountable for your actions and you go to jail becos you have shown an unwillingness to change and you only get so many chances. i cannot conscionably justify allowing an offender to destroy the lives of countless victims on the sole basis that it's going to be hard on him in jail.
Does the system need work? Absolutely it does. We need more programs to de-stigmatize mental illnesses like depression and ADHD. We need more funding to pay for proper treatment and assessments ... We need to make sure our services get to more of the people who need them. We need funds to research new treatments for conditions like psychopathy.
But is mental illness ever going to be eradicated? Never. You cannot measure the efficacy of a system by the yes-no existence of a phenomenon. You can look at numbers, for sure. The percentage of people who don't get help for a mental illness needs to decrease. But like hippiemom suggested, you could have the best services possible ... And many people still wouldn't access them. That's where some element of choice or free will comes in.
I don't see that as choice. I agree that we can't cure everyone, but as FFG and SS would have it, we wouldn't help anyone.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Dude, don't try to analyze me. You are failing miserably.
I cannot get involved in this particular aspect of the debate ... I will say this, though ... You put yourself out there, dude. I am not sure what soulsinging's motives here are, but his opinion might be worth a look. One thing I do believe about you is that you do have an honest desire to change. Kudos to you for that.
no, it's indicative of mental problems and that their parents aren't working. "the system" has no control over what goes on in that kid's home. now, once he tortures the animal, he could be put into therapy and his home life could be examined. at this point, yes, he deserves the benefit of the doubt and counseling. i will never advocate jailing children. and i think we ought to increase the system's power to respond to these sorts of incidents. but once you've been given these chances and you become an adult who knows this behavior is not acceptable even if you dont feel it, you are accountable for your actions and you go to jail becos you have shown an unwillingness to change and you only get so many chances. i cannot conscionably justify allowing an offender to destroy the lives of countless victims on the sole basis that it's going to be hard on him in jail.
Ok, so how is it that the parents are responsible for the kid's mental health, and also responsible for their own? At what point does the kid get free-will and become responsible for his own mental health?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I cannot get involved in this particular aspect of the debate ... I will say this, though ... You put yourself out there, dude. I am not sure what soulsinging's motives here are, but his opinion might be worth a look. One thing I do believe about you is that you do have an honest desire to change. Kudos to you for that.
I put myself out there because I'm not afraid of people like Soulsinging. He can talk out his ass all he wants, it's not going to cause me any pain.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
No shit, but what are you doing as a parent? Are you taking the responsibility to understand them? Or are you just repeating the process?
I'm not asking everyone in the world to change anything. I'm ask you the people of this board to do something right. Maybe that's why you feel like you need to defend yourselves.
maybe the reason we're defensive is you passing judgment and presuming to tell us we dont know how to raise kids when you dont have one yourself. maybe we're offended that you seem to presume we all want to harm our children and have them grow up damaged. maybe we're defensive becos your accusations and assumptions are way off base on this board, where most people are decent, loving, and do an excellent job of raising their children. i rather doubt anyone on this board is trying to raise a serial killer.
Unfortunately, it is. You cannot absolve yourself by destroying yourself. Only the opposite is true.
I didn't suggest destroying one's self. If you think that you are just your free-will. Than stick a railroad spike through your brain and see where that takes you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't see that as choice. I agree that we can't cure everyone, but as FFG and SS would have it, we wouldn't help anyone.
True, failing to access needed services is not always a choice. Choice itself is very hard to even define in this context, because all kinds of factors play into motivation to change one's behavior.
One of my recent personal experiences was enlightening in this regard ... Hearing something very shocking about oneself can shake things up, increase one's motivation to change drastically.
maybe the reason we're defensive is you passing judgment and presuming to tell us we dont know how to raise kids when you dont have one yourself. maybe we're offended that you seem to presume we all want to harm our children and have them grow up damaged. maybe we're defensive becos your accusations and assumptions are way off base on this board, where most people are decent, loving, and do an excellent job of raising their children. i rather doubt anyone on this board is trying to raise a serial killer.
That's not what I'm suggesting.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ok, so how is it that the parents are responsible for the kid's mental health, and also responsible for their own? At what point does the kid get free-will and become responsible for his own mental health?
I'll have to read that whole first original thread starter when I have more time. I've always been kind of fascinated with the brain & how it works....
Thanks for posting.
The most often heard theory, I believe, is that it is a combination of nurture vs. nature as to why people turn into monsters.....and then again, some criminals, esp. serial killers, are just a mystery. They aren't abused & there is no apparent reason that anyone can site for thier behavior. This was discussed in the case of Jeffrey Dahmer....
True, failing to access needed services is not always a choice. Choice itself is very hard to even define in this context, because all kinds of factors play into motivation to change one's behavior.
One of my recent personal experiences was enlightening in this regard ... Hearing something very shocking about oneself can shake things up, increase one's motivation to change drastically.
So, do you see how choice is dependent on information?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I agree that we can't cure everyone, but as FFG and SS would have it, we wouldn't help anyone.
As you would have it, there would be no reason to help anyone.
Morality requires choice. Choice requires identity. The perception of identity requires consciousness. Consciousness requires self-awareness.
Without these things, the cat slaughterer becomes no different than the cat he slaughters. No line can be drawn between them. In the darkest reaches of your mind, this is what you are after. You may not know it, but I suspect you do. The better part of you seeks an escape, and that's why you're here. Like it or not, you're going to have to choose between them, or you'll be ripped in half.
So, when a kid turns 19 or 21 in some states, he is magically endowed with free-will?
If he's jewish, it's magically endowed at age 14?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
As you would have it, there would be no reason to help anyone.
Morality requires choice. Choice requires identity. The perception of identity requires consciousness. Consciousness requires self-awareness.
Without these things, the cat slaughterer becomes no different than the cat he slaughters. No line can be drawn between them. In the darkest reaches of your mind, this is what you are after. You may not know it, but I suspect you do. The better part of you seeks an escape, and that's why you're here. Like it or not, you're going to have to choose between them, or you'll be ripped in half.
Umm, no, that is a hilarious diagnosis. That is funny shit man. Do you know anything about psychology?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Indeed I do. A lack of information equals a lack of choice, in many cases.
Great, that's all I want, is for people to have that understanding and apply it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If you continue on the path you're headed on now, I'm sure you'll do it for me.
Nope, wrong again.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
So, when a kid turns 19 or 21 in some states, he is magically endowed with free-will?
If he's jewish, it's magically endowed at age 14?
something like that. there are stages of development. the age is slightly arbitrary. but there is no doubt an adult has different capacities from a child. this is why we can account for such things in sentencing. this is why we have insanity defenses.
Enough to know that posts like this tell me what others know about psychology.
Teach me. Refute my points. Tell me what the defining line between "good" and "bad" can be, in your world.
Read my signature.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Great, that's all I want, is for people to have that understanding and apply it.
how noble of you to deign to come down and mingle with us peasants and grace us with your superior knowledge. shall i now grovel at your feet and beg for more nuggets of your wisdom?
Umm, no, that is a hilarious diagnosis. That is funny shit man. Do you know anything about psychology?
I don't know, man ... The language is kind of metaphorical, but you don't think he's onto something at all? He said what I did, basically ... His language is more peotic than the pith I write, but the basic message? There's part of you that really does want to change. But you'll have to choose that part, at some point ... You'll have to choose it to represent who you really are.
You now have a lot of the information you need, yes? Even before you started this thread.
something like that. there are stages of development. the age is slightly arbitrary. but there is no doubt an adult has different capacities from a child. this is why we can account for such things in sentencing. this is why we have insanity defenses.
Yea, in the early 20s of life the pre-frontal cortex of the brain develops. It has nothing to do with free-will. It's all about logic and reasoning. Of course, you can't guarantee that every 20 year old is fully developed. For example, I think yours is slightly retarded.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
That's not how it works. Though with your attitude, a cattle prod sounds to be in order.
no, it's indicative of mental problems and that their parents aren't working. "the system" has no control over what goes on in that kid's home. now, once he tortures the animal, he could be put into therapy and his home life could be examined. at this point, yes, he deserves the benefit of the doubt and counseling. i will never advocate jailing children. and i think we ought to increase the system's power to respond to these sorts of incidents. but once you've been given these chances and you become an adult who knows this behavior is not acceptable even if you dont feel it, you are accountable for your actions and you go to jail becos you have shown an unwillingness to change and you only get so many chances. i cannot conscionably justify allowing an offender to destroy the lives of countless victims on the sole basis that it's going to be hard on him in jail.
I don't see that as choice. I agree that we can't cure everyone, but as FFG and SS would have it, we wouldn't help anyone.
I cannot get involved in this particular aspect of the debate ... I will say this, though ... You put yourself out there, dude. I am not sure what soulsinging's motives here are, but his opinion might be worth a look. One thing I do believe about you is that you do have an honest desire to change. Kudos to you for that.
Ok, so how is it that the parents are responsible for the kid's mental health, and also responsible for their own? At what point does the kid get free-will and become responsible for his own mental health?
Unfortunately, it is. You cannot absolve yourself by destroying yourself. Only the opposite is true.
I put myself out there because I'm not afraid of people like Soulsinging. He can talk out his ass all he wants, it's not going to cause me any pain.
maybe the reason we're defensive is you passing judgment and presuming to tell us we dont know how to raise kids when you dont have one yourself. maybe we're offended that you seem to presume we all want to harm our children and have them grow up damaged. maybe we're defensive becos your accusations and assumptions are way off base on this board, where most people are decent, loving, and do an excellent job of raising their children. i rather doubt anyone on this board is trying to raise a serial killer.
given the fact that you admit to a history of psychopathic behavior and forced hospitalization, i think im uncomfortably close for you.
I didn't suggest destroying one's self. If you think that you are just your free-will. Than stick a railroad spike through your brain and see where that takes you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
True, failing to access needed services is not always a choice. Choice itself is very hard to even define in this context, because all kinds of factors play into motivation to change one's behavior.
One of my recent personal experiences was enlightening in this regard ... Hearing something very shocking about oneself can shake things up, increase one's motivation to change drastically.
That's not what I'm suggesting.
when the kid becomes an adult.
Thanks for posting.
The most often heard theory, I believe, is that it is a combination of nurture vs. nature as to why people turn into monsters.....and then again, some criminals, esp. serial killers, are just a mystery. They aren't abused & there is no apparent reason that anyone can site for thier behavior. This was discussed in the case of Jeffrey Dahmer....
So, do you see how choice is dependent on information?
As you would have it, there would be no reason to help anyone.
Morality requires choice. Choice requires identity. The perception of identity requires consciousness. Consciousness requires self-awareness.
Without these things, the cat slaughterer becomes no different than the cat he slaughters. No line can be drawn between them. In the darkest reaches of your mind, this is what you are after. You may not know it, but I suspect you do. The better part of you seeks an escape, and that's why you're here. Like it or not, you're going to have to choose between them, or you'll be ripped in half.
So, when a kid turns 19 or 21 in some states, he is magically endowed with free-will?
If he's jewish, it's magically endowed at age 14?
Indeed I do. A lack of information equals a lack of choice, in many cases.
Umm, no, that is a hilarious diagnosis. That is funny shit man. Do you know anything about psychology?
If you continue on the path you're headed on now, I'm sure you'll do it for me.
Great, that's all I want, is for people to have that understanding and apply it.
Nope, wrong again.
Enough to know that posts like this tell me what others know about psychology.
Teach me. Refute my points. Tell me what the defining line between "good" and "bad" can be, in your world.
something like that. there are stages of development. the age is slightly arbitrary. but there is no doubt an adult has different capacities from a child. this is why we can account for such things in sentencing. this is why we have insanity defenses.
Read my signature.
Then enslave them. Make them do it. Force them. What are you waiting for?
how noble of you to deign to come down and mingle with us peasants and grace us with your superior knowledge. shall i now grovel at your feet and beg for more nuggets of your wisdom?
I don't know, man ... The language is kind of metaphorical, but you don't think he's onto something at all? He said what I did, basically ... His language is more peotic than the pith I write, but the basic message? There's part of you that really does want to change. But you'll have to choose that part, at some point ... You'll have to choose it to represent who you really are.
You now have a lot of the information you need, yes? Even before you started this thread.
Yea, in the early 20s of life the pre-frontal cortex of the brain develops. It has nothing to do with free-will. It's all about logic and reasoning. Of course, you can't guarantee that every 20 year old is fully developed. For example, I think yours is slightly retarded.
Hehe...I have. Tell me, if "good and evil" are myths, why did Mr. Darrow care what happened to Leopold & Loeb?