And you think I'm crazy!

Ahnimus

Well, I was reading through this website http://www.thescienceforum.com and I found that the majority of the topics being discussed are related to what I've been discussing. Free-will and determinism/predeterminism being a huge topic spanning many many threads. The origin of the universe being another huge topic spanning many many threads.

I would suggest reading through it, if you honestly think I am crazy. Many people on that forum are very scientifically coherent and many are inline with my thoughts.

So, I think I'm going to spend most of my time over there with reasonable debates. Once they activate my account!

sponger

I don't think anyone thinks you're crazy because you like to discuss those topics. I think they think you're crazy because you don't really understand those topics. That's the way I remember you anyway. I haven't been reading much of your posts lately, but I remember you used to just throw around a bunch of terminology and statistics when they really didn't have much to do with the topic at hand. But, I'm glad to see that you've found a place where you think you'll be amongst peers.

Ahnimus

sponger wrote:

I don't think anyone thinks you're crazy because you like to discuss those topics. I think they think you're crazy because you don't really understand those topics. That's the way I remember you anyway. I haven't been reading much of your posts lately, but I remember you used to just throw around a bunch of terminology and statistics when they really didn't have much to do with the topic at hand. But, I'm glad to see that you've found a place where you think you'll be amongst peers.

I completely understood what I was saying and stick by it even now. Others are on-board and more will realize it. I was surprised that Soulsinging hit the nail on the head with the discussion of coin flipping dynamics. He said something like "Imagine everything since the big bang has happened according to specific laws" or something to that effect, then he proceeded to trash me while discussing the topic.

I think everyone will make the realization at some point, but their existing prejudices may cause them to disregard it.

catefrances

i read the 'is everything pre planned?' thread ahnimus.
personally i think Man does have free will. but only to a certain extent. while everyone has freewill, the problem is your freewill clashes with others' freewill. so you come to a push me/pull you situation and your(and their) freewill is lost. the resolution of which they call compromise.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

i read the 'is everything pre planned?' thread ahnimus.
personally i think Man does have free will. but only to a certain extent. while everyone has freewill, the problem is your freewill clashes with others' freewill. so you come to a push me/pull you situation and your(and their) freewill is lost. the resolution of which they call compromise.

What are you doing right now? Why? Why do you want to? Why? Why? Why?

Try it

There is a very simple way to prove the laws of determinism. However, it's somewhat abstract by it's nature. Nature it is.

What we've done with science is ask ourselves "Why?" why do people act and choose. We've discovered a lot, in cases of testosterone, estrogen, norepinephrine, cortisol, ocytocin, etc.. the cases of memory and neural plasticity. We can ask ourselves "Why?" every time and find an answer. I speculate that we will never run out of questions to ask, and answers to find. But we can ask the question, and that's all we have to do to understand determinism.

Of course some will always say that the answer to "Why? is always free-will. But it's evident in their own behavior. I believe in determinism, predeterminism at that. Yet, I can't shake the habits I have expressing free-will and pointing blame. My behavior isn't always in-line with my beliefs. This is because I can't exactly control my behavior from an all-knowing, all-powerful throne in my mind. My conscious awareness is highly limited and filtered. People that believe in "free-will" constantly blame away their experiences. It's the fault of someone else's actions, or it's the fault of an inanimate object, or the fault of a circumstance. People that are sometimes called "Meists" pass the buck all the time, whilst maintaining that their accomplishments are entirely of their own free will. That's a blatant paradox in the theory.

There are multiple paradoxes in the free-will theory. There is no cause or factor that determines what it is. The theory claims that people have the ability to choose regardless of determinants. Yet, people make choices that contradict the general morality of the population. This is in direct contradiction to the theory. If a factor influences the free-will, then it's not free. Therefor the theory is constantly violated by people making immoral decisions, or any decision different from anyone else. People would be robots.

Duality, claims that environment and genetics do influence will[/] which negates it's freedom. For it to be free it must be independent of any determinants. Freedom is only subjective, and relative. I am free in my apartment in Canada, free to do whatever I want. Within the limitations of many things. My wallet, access to resources, my body, my mind, gravity, matter, everything determines what I do right now. Which is write this post that you probably don't care about. I am determined to do it, because I can't fly out the window into outerspace and discover the universe. I can't even go bowling, or to the bar, it's too late. I don't subscribe to cable because I can't afford the extra bill and try to limit my intake of mindless television. So there really isn't much for me to do right now except sit at my computer, it's my habit as well. I right this message to influence people with certain reasoning and information. To alter their reality of perception, to what I believe is a major update. I'm certainly not going to hate anyone, or look down on them if they don't believe it. With determinism it's not exactly their fault.

binger

Great link. Keep thinking!

Kann

Ahnimus wrote:

What are you doing right now? Why? Why do you want to? Why? Why? Why?

Try it

There is a very simple way to prove the laws of determinism. However, it's somewhat abstract by it's nature. Nature it is.

What we've done with science is ask ourselves "Why?" why do people act and choose. We've discovered a lot, in cases of testosterone, estrogen, norepinephrine, cortisol, ocytocin, etc.. the cases of memory and neural plasticity. We can ask ourselves "Why?" every time and find an answer. I speculate that we will never run out of questions to ask, and answers to find. But we can ask the question, and that's all we have to do to understand determinism.

Of course some will always say that the answer to "Why? is always free-will. But it's evident in their own behavior. I believe in determinism, predeterminism at that. Yet, I can't shake the habits I have expressing free-will and pointing blame. My behavior isn't always in-line with my beliefs. This is because I can't exactly control my behavior from an all-knowing, all-powerful throne in my mind. My conscious awareness is highly limited and filtered. People that believe in "free-will" constantly blame away their experiences. It's the fault of someone else's actions, or it's the fault of an inanimate object, or the fault of a circumstance. People that are sometimes called "Meists" pass the buck all the time, whilst maintaining that their accomplishments are entirely of their own free will. That's a blatant paradox in the theory.

There are multiple paradoxes in the free-will theory. There is no cause or factor that determines what it is. The theory claims that people have the ability to choose regardless of determinants. Yet, people make choices that contradict the general morality of the population. This is in direct contradiction to the theory. If a factor influences the free-will, then it's not free. Therefor the theory is constantly violated by people making immoral decisions, or any decision different from anyone else. People would be robots.

Duality, claims that environment and genetics do influence will[/] which negates it's freedom. For it to be free it must be independent of any determinants. Freedom is only subjective, and relative. I am free in my apartment in Canada, free to do whatever I want. Within the limitations of many things. My wallet, access to resources, my body, my mind, gravity, matter, everything determines what I do right now. Which is write this post that you probably don't care about. I am determined to do it, because I can't fly out the window into outerspace and discover the universe. I can't even go bowling, or to the bar, it's too late. I don't subscribe to cable because I can't afford the extra bill and try to limit my intake of mindless television. So there really isn't much for me to do right now except sit at my computer, it's my habit as well. I right this message to influence people with certain reasoning and information. To alter their reality of perception, to what I believe is a major update. I'm certainly not going to hate anyone, or look down on them if they don't believe it. With determinism it's not exactly their fault.

Isn't free will the ability to choose the moral nature of an action?
Like : you find a wallet with the name and adress of the person who lost and 500$ and free will lets you keep it or give it back? This action is not limited by genes or environment.
I guess I didn't exactly get the last part. But it was interesting, thanks.
(ps : hormones are a very important barrier to our freedom, hormones can sometimes determine your entire behaviour in some situations. And sometimes thinking what you did was entirely your choice was infact completely dictated by your hormones)

Ahnimus

Kann wrote:

Isn't free will the ability to choose the moral nature of an action?
Like : you find a wallet with the name and adress of the person who lost and 500$ and free will lets you keep it or give it back? This action is not limited by genes or environment.
I guess I didn't exactly get the last part. But it was interesting, thanks.
(ps : hormones are a very important barrier to our freedom, hormones can sometimes determine your entire behaviour in some situations. And sometimes thinking what you did was entirely your choice was infact completely dictated by your hormones)

Well, morality is subjective and variable. A person from the ghetto would probably be likelier to steal the money than a rich boy. The money it's self is a determinant. If a person has lots of money, why would they take $20 from someone else, if they are broke on the other hand.

But anyway, basically, the "person" is shaped over time by experience. Whatever decisions they make about anything is based on the person.

If you can imagine a stock market. Every buy and every sell changes the market. A character changes with every experience.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

What are you doing right now? Why? Why do you want to? Why? Why? Why?

Try it

Of course some will always say that the answer to "Why? is always free-will.

my answer to why is usually cause i want to. but then there are those times when i feel i need to(which perhaps indicates not everything is within my control)and i think those are the times when emotion overtakes rationality. i'm more a go with the flow and deal with the consequences person rather than someone who thinks everything out and then acts.


oh and i don't subscribe to cable cause rupert murdoch does not need any more money(especially mine) and cause cable television is full of more shit than free to air tv, if that is at all possible.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

my answer to why is usually cause i want to. but then there are those times when i feel i need to(which perhaps indicates not everything is within my control)and i think those are the times when emotion overtakes rationality. i'm more a go with the flow and deal with the consequences person rather than someone who thinks everything out and then acts.


oh and i don't subscribe to cable cause rupert murdoch does not need any more money(especially mine) and cause cable television is full of more shit than free to air tv, if that is at all possible.

I'm sure you know why you want to do whatever it is that you do.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm sure you know why you want to do whatever it is that you do.

usually.
sometimes though it just comes down to just because. or the urge to do it is stronger than the pause button. of course there are those times when conversely i want to do something but stop myself.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

usually.
sometimes though it just comes down to just because. or the urge to do it is stronger than the pause button. of course there are those times when conversely i want to do something but stop myself.

But there is always a reason

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

But there is always a reason

says who?????

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

says who?????

Everyone.

They just don't know it.

Collin

No, I do not think you are crazy.

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, I was reading through this website http://www.thescienceforum.com and I found that the majority of the topics being discussed are related to what I've been discussing.

The majority?

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Everyone.

They just don't know it.

no. not everyone.
if i don't know it, then it's not happening. if it's unconscious then who knows?
it's like the perception of reality.

farfromglorified

Ahnimus wrote:

So, I think I'm going to spend most of my time over there with reasonable debates.

I guess it was meant to be......onward billiard ball!

angelica

Collin wrote:

The majority?

farfromglorified wrote:

I guess it was meant to be......onward billiard ball!

(I'm thinking he'll be getting ideas from there and bringing them over here. Ahnimus LOVES us, he won't be gone for long! )

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

(I'm thinking he'll be getting ideas from there and bringing them over here. Ahnimus LOVES us, he won't be gone for long! )

There is a certain attraction about this forum. I just don't understand most of you.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

There is a certain attraction about this forum. I just don't understand most of you.

We LOVE you too, Ahnimus.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

We LOVE you too, Ahnimus.

I love everyone. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let you be right, ever.