My Grandmother's Funeral

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I suppose that'd be like asking a Jihadist not to suicide bomb a bus-stop.

Or maybe it'd be like asking G dub to leave his religious beliefs out of his politics.

Or like asking a religious biology professor to forget about Genesis when he's teaching evolution.

Or, is death a solely religious endeavour?

is this supposed to prove some sort of point?

onelongsong

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm confused, please clarify.

i'm not sure what you want clarified. the worst of sinners can repent and their sins will be forgiven.
as far as saying a little prayer; i asked that she be happy and attain everlasting life.

but back to my question. what were you doing at a funeral in the first place? you mention a family member in a box. if you are an athiest; the only thing in that box was 90% water and 10% dust. if you're an athiest; your grandmother is gone; nothing but memories.
this is something i wish an athiest could describe to me.

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

i'm not sure what you want clarified. the worst of sinners can repent and their sins will be forgiven.
as far as saying a little prayer; i asked that she be happy and attain everlasting life.

but back to my question. what were you doing at a funeral in the first place? you mention a family member in a box. if you are an athiest; the only thing in that box was 90% water and 10% dust. if you're an athiest; your grandmother is gone; nothing but memories.
this is something i wish an athiest could describe to me.

Yes, she is extinct. Obviously I wasn't there to wish her a happy birthday. I was there to see her face for the last time and celebrate her life with family.

Why is that such a difficult thing to understand?

Jeanie

The golden rule amongst the Aussies.

Don't get caught up on the religious threads.

And I also forgot that as a godless creature I have NO right to farewell my friends or family, because EVERYBODY knows that death is the SOLE dominion of the religious.

Guess in order to appease the religious I won't be attending anymore funerals.

Oh that's right I'll be at mine.

I am SOOO having HELLS BELLS at my funeral!!! :mad:

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

is this supposed to prove some sort of point?

Pointing out the similarity. Should a funeral be seen as a religious experience, at which a religious preacher must be present. Or is it open for interpretation. In which case my argument is entirely valid. But if death is a solely religious experience then by all means, there should be a priest at every funeral and I expect to live forever.

onelongsong

Ahnimus wrote:

Pointing out the similarity. Should a funeral be seen as a religious experience, at which a religious preacher must be present. Or is it open for interpretation. In which case my argument is entirely valid. But if death is a solely religious experience then by all means, there should be a priest at every funeral and I expect to live forever.

what has a funeral been since recorded history began?
it's the celebration of someone going to the afterlife. so yes; a funeral is a religious experience. if you do not believe in an afterlife; you do not have a funeral. you dispose of the body as you would an old candy wrapper.
so why would you attend a funeral if you're an athiest? i still can't get past that.

onelongsong

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes, she is extinct. Obviously I wasn't there to wish her a happy birthday. I was there to see her face for the last time and celebrate her life with family.

Why is that such a difficult thing to understand?

i guess it's the hipocracy i can't get past.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Pointing out the similarity. Should a funeral be seen as a religious experience, at which a religious preacher must be present. Or is it open for interpretation. In which case my argument is entirely valid. But if death is a solely religious experience then by all means, there should be a priest at every funeral and I expect to live forever.

a funeral should be seen as whatever the deceased wanted it to be. if they wanted it to be a typical funeral within their faith, then i dont see why it is your place to disrespect those wishes.

al of your examples... the people in them have scant chance of being convinced of the folly of their ways. nonetheless, those are fights worth fighting becos of a significant societal impact that is dangerous and very real consequences. the example of you disagreeing with your priest's handling of a funeral does not. it simply means a small handful of people are annoyed by the ritual of a certain religion dealing with an event that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. your problem is not their ritual for the deceased, it's that you disagree with how they express it which is totally arbitrary and your way is no more meaningful or sensible than theirs.

catefrances

onelongsong wrote:

i'm not sure what you want clarified. the worst of sinners can repent and their sins will be forgiven.
as far as saying a little prayer; i asked that she be happy and attain everlasting life.

but back to my question. what were you doing at a funeral in the first place? you mention a family member in a box. if you are an athiest; the only thing in that box was 90% water and 10% dust. if you're an athiest; your grandmother is gone; nothing but memories.
this is something i wish an athiest could describe to me.

okay here's the problem with suicide. it is the unforgiveable sin. it is so because the person is no longer around to repent for their sin. only God can absolve them from sin.

catefrances

as an atheist onelongsong i can answer the funeral question. yes the person in the box is a family memebr. yes, what i have is memories. that was the departed family member's wish. to have a funeral and be farewelled in such a manner. being an atheist doesn't negate your justified presence at a funeral. that's just ridiculous. personally i will never attend a funeral held in any place of worship.
the person in the box is still a loved one. it is weird for me to think of someone i love in a coffin. i feel a light has gone out. it's difficult to relate the body in a coffin to the person you knew. it's such a feeling of finality. you make your peace with the dead and you move on. how is it any different for an atheist.

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

what has a funeral been since recorded history began?
it's the celebration of someone going to the afterlife. so yes; a funeral is a religious experience. if you do not believe in an afterlife; you do not have a funeral. you dispose of the body as you would an old candy wrapper.
so why would you attend a funeral if you're an athiest? i still can't get past that.

Probably because you have no idea what atheism is.

if you do not believe in an afterlife; you do not have a funeral. you dispose of the body as you would an old candy wrapper.

One of the most ignorant statements regarding atheism I've ever heard.

Honestly, if you think people who do not believe in a deity are void of morallity, than get out and meet some atheists.

catefrances

onelongsong wrote:

i guess it's the hipocracy i can't get past.

the hypocrisy of him wanting to say goodbye to his grandmother? that's crap onelongsong. just as believers differ in their modus operandi when it comes to their faith, so do atheists. as i said in a previuus thread i will never attend a funeral in a house of worship. and that extends to weddings, christenings or anything else that is religious. but that is MY choice. no one else's.

bubbamackdaddy69

Ahnimus wrote:

Probably because you have no idea what atheism is.



One of the most ignorant statements regarding atheism I've ever heard.

Honestly, if you think people who do not believe in a deity are void of morallity, than get out and meet some atheists.

Good point..
I'm an Atheist/Agnosticist...but I do have morals

Ahnimus

I've struggled with understanding this:

A person dies, and a Christians, cries, mourns their death, but expects to eventually see them in heaven.

A person dies and I may cry or mourn their death, but I don't expect they continue to exist in any form.

So, as onelongsong said; Why is it a common belief that atheists consider the dead equal to a piece of trash?

Wouldn't it be the Christian that believes the body is the candy wrapper and the candy still exists?

An atheist would believe the body is the person without life. Life simply being the ability to function at all.

onelongsong

catefrances wrote:

the hypocrisy of him wanting to say goodbye to his grandmother? that's crap onelongsong. just as believers differ in their modus operandi when it comes to their faith, so do atheists. as i said in a previuus thread i will never attend a funeral in a house of worship. and that extends to weddings, christenings or anything else that is religious. but that is MY choice. no one else's.

then you have no hiprocracy. you are true to your beliefs.
but in this case he said his grandmother no longer exists. so if he went to say good bye to his grandmother; then he admits that she exists in another form. this admits to life after death.
christians cry and mourn; then celebrate with a big party; as do many religions.
he also posted a poem i see at a lot of catholic funerals. it's meaning to catholics is not to cry for me; i am a part of God now. so that's where i saw the hipocracy in the post.

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

then you have no hiprocracy. you are true to your beliefs.
but in this case he said his grandmother no longer exists. so if he went to say good bye to his grandmother; then he admits that she exists in another form. this admits to life after death.
christians cry and mourn; then celebrate with a big party; as do many religions.
he also posted a poem i see at a lot of catholic funerals. it's meaning to catholics is not to cry for me; i am a part of God now. so that's where i saw the hipocracy in the post.

The poem wasn't used with that intent. Clearly by the context it was meant to reflect my grandmother's wishes.

As an atheist I can "say goodbye" to the flesh that still is my grandmother before it decays.

Collin

I'm an atheist and when a loved one dies I attend his funeral. I don't think I will ever see him again. He's gone forever.

Why do I go to the funeral? Because he's a loved one. Because I'm not a heartless bastard, as you seem to think atheists are. This is a person I loved and I want say goodbye (yes, saying goodbye to nothing). It helps me get over it. Closing a chapter of my life. Taking time to realise this person is actually gone and I will never ever see him or her again. We're not robots. A deceased loved one isn't like an old candy wrapper because during my life I have never loved a candy wrapper, never talked to a candy wrapper, never laughed with a candy wrapper...

dg1979us

I have to say I find this whole thread very odd. The way a funeral is conducted isnt mandatory. It is up to the family (in most cases) of the deceased to determine how they want the funeral to be conducted, and I would think that most times it is conducted in a manner that the family thinks the deceased would approve. Meaning, if it is a religious person, than most likely the funeral will be a religious type ceremony. Even if you arent religious (which I am not), the act of the funeral can still be about you showing respect to the dead, despite the fact you dont believe with the religious aspects. I am certainly not going to tell the poster how to react to a family members funeral, but I have to say, that it was those that made these arrangements that had the funeral conducted in that manner.

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

he also posted a poem i see at a lot of catholic funerals. it's meaning to catholics is not to cry for me; i am a part of God now. so that's where i saw the hipocracy in the post.

I pm'ed the very same poem to Ahnimus earlier in the week when I knew of his grandmother's death. I am not a catholic. Have never been a catholic and the poem was given to me at the death of my grandfather, who was not catholic, by someone who is also not a catholic. It may have meaning for catholics, it may have been written by a catholic for all I know. But it is not surely the exlusive property of the catholic church?

The poem transcends religion in my opinion. And I don't see Ahnimus posting it as hypocrisy. He is allowed to grieve and mourn in his own way. He is allowed to find what comfort he can in ritual. He is allowed to be a human being, saying good bye to the relationship that he had with another human being. Just as we all are.

catefrances

Jeanie wrote:

I pm'ed the very same poem to Ahnimus earlier in the week when I knew of his grandmother's death. I am not a catholic. Have never been a catholic and the poem was given to me at the death of my grandfather, who was not catholic, by someone who is also not a catholic. It may have meaning for catholics, it may have been written by a catholic for all I know. But it is not surely the exlusive property of the catholic church?

The poem transcends religion in my opinion. And I don't see Ahnimus posting it as hypocrisy. He is allowed to grieve and mourn in his own way. He is allowed to find what comfort he can in ritual. He is allowed to be a human being, saying good bye to the relationship that he had with another human being. Just as we all are.

right on jeanie. grieving and mourning and the way we choose to say farewell is a personal thing unique to each indivdual.