Understanding Joshua Mauldin (Man Who Microwaved Baby)

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

So, you feel that it is neccesary to feel protective of a baby. Even though you can't do anything. Then you will want to do something, but what will you do? And will it be beneficial?

Let's not forget that there is no way for us to know all the facts about any particular situation that we are not directly involved in, and even some we are directly involved in. We get our information from the media which appeals to our emotions. The media wants you to feel disgusted and they will grossen the story up for you.

Ahnimus, whether or not I can do something in this particular situation is beside the my emotional response. There are many things in this world that I can't do anything about but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't feel something about the event.

Emotional responses are built into human beings so that when situations occur in front of us we FEEL the need to respond and do something.

Overall, it is beneficial to the human species for people to have emotional responses to other people being hurt.

I don't waste much time reading about strangers and watching the news, but when I do hear of things I think I have the response of a compassionate person and that's helpful to the people I interact with on a daily basis.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

One person can rob an old lady and get hit by a bus immediately after.
Another person can go on to rob more old ladies.

Cause and effect in the massive complexity of the universe don't always result in the same kind of karma type stuff people think.

These universal laws are very, very complex, particularly when considered interactively with each completely unique individual considering all of their predispositions and environmental factors that have never before resulted in such a manner. The universe is one with all the many variables involved on all levels.

No matter what people think, these universal laws exist.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

These universal laws are very, very complex, particularly when considered interactively with each completely unique individual considering all of their predispositions and environmental factors that have never before resulted in such a manner. The universe is one with all the many variables involved on all levels.

No matter what people think, these universal laws exist.

Universal laws exist.
You sure as hell can't explain them, though.

Nobody can.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

In the universe, there are consequences for each moral choice everyone makes. These consequences are based on natural universal laws. We cannot remove morality from the universe and put it in a vacuum.

Morality, people, culture, and the universe are all interconnected. Where does morality exist where it isn't also connected to the universe? Where does morality exist that it isn't connected to the individual's neurology? Where does morality exist that it isn't connected to culture? And where does morality exist that it isn't connected to all of the above?

You are right, in the neurological sense, but it's highly malleable. It's subjective, not "Universal".

Ahnimus

justam wrote:

Ahnimus, whether or not I can do something in this particular situation is beside the my emotional response. There are many things in this world that I can't do anything about but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't feel something about the event.

Emotional responses are built into human beings so that when situations occur in front of us we FEEL the need to respond and do something.

Overall, it is beneficial to the human species for people to have emotional responses to other people being hurt.

I don't waste much time reading about strangers and watching the news, but when I do hear of things I think I have the response of a compassionate person and that's helpful to the people I interact with on a daily basis.

Right, but you don't have compassion for the offender. I can't help you there, unless you are willing to learn about the human brain and the causes for human behavior.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, but cause and effect have nothing to do with morality.

One person can rob an old lady and get hit by a bus immediately after.
Another person can go on to rob more old ladies.

Here you are talking about the objective level of understanding. I mentioned this level earlier, and how it is recognized in a world view--one worldview stage before the existentialist one. By the time we reach the more indepth stages of the existential worldview, which is beyond the objective view, awareness and understanding of universal law is much more evolved and complex than basic objectifying of information. This is because it is objective, PLUS it's awareness that has also figured out the nuances of the subjective variables, interactive cultural issues, and universal interconnections.

If you prefer to judge using only objective awareness, it's valid within that context; other's prefer to judge using only subjective awareness, which is valid within it's context. However both fall short than understanding that integrates them both, and understands how both work interactivly, in synchronization with the universe.

The universal cause and effect is not objectified. It is interwoven with everything on all levels: subjective, objective and inter-subjective, to be simple. And this is FAR from a simple concept. It is holistic and these laws reverberate through the whole--through everything. Universal laws don't follow along with the ideas we put upon it--it just Is all on it's own.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

Universal laws exist.
You sure as hell can't explain them, though.

Nobody can.

All of our studies are about uncovering and understanding universal laws. I agree 100% that for us to think we can fully understand or explain these laws, we are being very arrogant.

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, but you don't have compassion for the offender. I can't help you there, unless you are willing to learn about the human brain and the causes for human behavior.

I don't need you to help me. It sounds like the man is mentally ill. There are a lot of those folks out and about. I feel sorry for him but I still think it is a good idea to keep children out of his hands.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

You are right, in the neurological sense, but it's highly malleable. It's subjective, not "Universal".

Are you saying your neurology is not connected to the universe? Are you saying anyone's neurology is not directly connected to the universe and the laws of this natural reality system?

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

All of our studies are about uncovering and understanding universal laws. I agree 100% that for us to think we can fully understand or explain these laws, we are being very arrogant.

Who is "our". I don't study. I hope you're not claiming to be a physicist.

Einstein was satisfied with giving a graffiti sketch of relativity in light-time. That was the best he could do.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

Who is "our". I don't study. I hope you're not claiming to be a physicist.

Einstein was satisfied with giving a graffiti sketch of relativity in light-time. That was the best he could do.

All of what human beings study. We don't study anything that is detached of universal laws.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

All of what human beings study. We don't study anything that is detached of universal laws.

I'm okay with that statement.

Do we have to call them laws, though?

The Universe isn't governed, ultimately.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

I'm okay with that statement.

Do we have to call them laws, though?

The Universe isn't governed, ultimately.

The universe governs itself quite nicely, don't you think? That seems self-evident to me.

Are you okay with the label for the "law" of gravity? Or other "laws" of physics? I'm saying what is Absolute, and inherent to the universe, is a law. We cannot possibly escape the laws of the universe, so it certainly seems to me that we're governed.

We can start to acknowledge and notice variables and how they play out, and how our actions create different reactions. The more we open our eyes and look at these variables, the more we begin to see how they operate for us, individually, in our lives, and how they play out around us, in our worldview. By doing this, we become more connected and start to recognize certain patterns. Eventually we can learn which patterns don't work, and which ones do. And we find when we use the working patterns, we can start to regularly create happily, and less so, with misery. Some people do this, other people consider life is just random. Pattern recognition is considered a sign of intelligence.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Are you saying your neurology is not connected to the universe? Are you saying anyone's neurology is not directly connected to the universe and the laws of this natural reality system?

That isn't how you intended to use the word "universal". Right, like if I say "Brown is a color universal to Tim Horton's" I'm saying that all Tim Horton's stores use brown as the colour. That's how you were using the word "Universal".

Either way, when you say "Universal Moral Law" you are referring to something that does not exist by either definition of the word "Universal".

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

The universe governs itself quite nicely, don't you think? That seems self-evident to me.

Are you okay with the label for the "law" of gravity? Or other "laws" of physics? I'm saying what is Absolute, and inherent to the universe, is a law. We cannot possibly escape the laws of the universe, so it certainly seems to me that we're governed.

We can start to acknowledge and notice variables and how they play out, and how our actions create different reactions. The more we open our eyes and look at these variables, the more we begin to see how they operate for us, individually, in our lives, and how they play out around us, in our worldview. By doing this, we become more connected and start to recognize certain patterns. Eventually we can learn which patterns don't work, and which ones do. And we find when we use the working patterns, we can start to regularly create happily, and less so, with misery. Some people do this, other people consider life is just random. Pattern recognition is considered a sign of intelligence.

Sure, I can live with the semantics, but language is a part of the change, too, at least within "our" perspectives. Physics is a language, music, science, religion, art, chinese...all languages, millions of them...maybe billions (to use a carl sagan's vision of the stars on PBS circa 1977).
The universe may govern itself, insomuch as you can give a universe a conscience...i don't think that is possible in reality. ...the self-evidence you speak of is only in regard to homo sapiens lifespan thus far on this planet, in this universe, in this cycle.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

That isn't how you intended to use the word "universal". Right, like if I say "Brown is a color universal to Tim Horton's" I'm saying that all Tim Horton's stores use brown as the colour. That's how you were using the word "Universal".

Either way, when you say "Universal Moral Law" you are referring to something that does not exist by either definition of the word "Universal".

I'm using the word exactly the way I am using it. The universal laws are universal. Meaning each action has a specific result. And each time that exact action happens, that exact result happens. And each time a slightly different action happens, a slightly different result happens. This is across the board, anytime specific actions take place. No matter what we think of these laws, they always exist. They have so many nuances to them, especially when we take into consideration that they are interacting with so many individuals, who are never exactly the same, or in exactly the same place. We are literally unable to comprehend the gravity of this. It is still an "exact science" across the board on all levels, subjectively, objectively and inter-subjectively.

As we begin to look at our own patterns in our own worldview, we start to recognize certain patterns that repeat and then we can begin to see connections between these patterns and others. Eventually, when we become familiar with the basic patterns that work through our lives, we can see how these patterns operate in the lives of others, and that there are some general themes.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

Sure, I can live with the semantics, but language is a part of the change, too, at least within "our" perspectives. Physics is a language, music, science, religion, art, chinese...all languages, millions of them...maybe billions (to use a carl sagan's vision of the stars on PBS circa 1977).
The universe may govern itself, insomuch as you can give a universe a conscience...i don't think that is possible in reality. ...the self-evidence you speak of is only in regard to homo sapiens lifespan thus far on this planet, in this universe, in this cycle.

What I'm saying is that the universe is totally self contained and runs perfectly, no matter what we think about it. It is completely self governed. This is self-evident to me. Everything is in perfect synchronization.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

What I'm saying is that the universe is totally self contained and runs perfectly, no matter what we think about it. It is completely self governed. This is self-evident to me. Everything is in perfect synchronization.

Self-evidence is not universal.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

Self-evidence is not universal.

The universe is universal.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

The universe is universal.

You aren't going to change my language.