Ah, it all makes sense now. Having a mystical experience are we? Probably explains all the gaseous fumes as well Stay away from open flames
You're right, in a way.
Not with the fumes-thing, at least not literally, but with the 'stay away'. I can't deal with the logic here. I can't. I mean even with you, baraka, ahnimus, and countless others, there isn't anything here for me. I already know what you're going to say, for the most part. It's a merry-go-round anymore.
I could write a poem about an old man on a merry-go-round right now. LOL.
I think I'll take that as a compliment! I'm like you, I'd rather attract butterflies. Ever been to a butterfly sanctuary?
Actually no, but I've watch digital representations of butterflies on my computer
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I view it as a survival mechanism. If our species intuitively knew the truth about reality we would probably not have survived this long. Even with this spirituality and religion, we've found ourselves entangled in great wars, ironically in the name of spirituality. I think, or I hope we've evolved enough socially to dispell ourselves of these illusions.
I'm not getting this. Why can't we survive knowing the truth of reality? You are edging in on various god-arguments with that line. And who claimed that spirituality and/or religion would do anything about wars or whatnot?
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am not following your train of thought here, or the relevance to this debate.
Actually, I find it hard to believe that the brain region is deciphering anything external. For waves of photons we have eyes, for waves of electrons we have ears, for solidity we have pressure sensitive skin, for taste we have tongues. But for this we only have a brain and no organ to collect information from the external world.
And maybe we have other sensory receptors not as easily identified. Maybe some aspect or combination of other senses align to other places in the brain. What the brain does is interpreting external sensations. So unless you wanna go into real hardcore relativism and matrix-models, the brain is picking up external stimuli and interpreting it.
On top of that there are roughly 6,000 different religions, and in the example of Buddhism and some Hindu sects, they do not believe in a God, but rather determinism, and they see the beauty in that. It's no doubt that when I think of the intricacy of the deterministic universe similar patterns would be present in my brain. I think it's awesome.
Determinism and free will have always been sported around. And what does believing in god have to do with it? Not once have I claimed that this experience people are having have anything to do with god or any other religious concoction. I am aiming at the experience itself, and not in what way people interpret it (which often is in the direction of the local religion).
Now, if you believe experience alone is some kind of evidence. Then you must also consider the following as truths, aliens, ghosts, leprechauns, unicorns, demons, fairies, bigfoot, the lochness monster and the abominable snowman. That's just in our western culture, move into eastern cultures and you have a lot more experiences to account for.
No, now you are just using cheap shots to ridicule. All of your examples are physical objects that may or may not exist. How does that relate to a spiritual experience? Just because I may find it interesting to listen to things you find ridiculous, does not force me to accept everything you think is ridiculous. Bad examples. Experience alone, as I have said, is not hard evidence alone. However, mounting piles of such records, should lead one to acknowledge that something is going on here that we currently cannot account for. Particularly if explanations are similar.
Yet, if I told you the late Francis Crick appeared to me in my room last night and gave me answers to lifes greatest questions, and that transcendence means suicide at a vortex in Sedona. You likely wouldn't believe it, would you? So then how do you discriminate between true experiences and false experiences?
Well, if records started to pile up of this man appearing to people and telling them this, then I would say that an investigation into the claim and at least treat it seriously from the start is in order. You equate listening to other people's experiences with lies consistently, which is rather interesting dont you think? True experiences are the ones I experience. Period. And I have had experiences I would label spiritual.
I have no way of knowing anything else other than by being told. Same for everyone. And I trust many many other people to be truthful to me about their experiences, as I tend to be truthful to them. So how do I differentiate? I do have internal "credit ratings" of what sources I do or do not trust. I use my brain and my judgement like all humans.
My guess, like most people, you believe what you want, and disregard the rest.
As do you.
But my point was also that you dont have much more backing for your stance of the "nonsense" of such experiences, than I have for not throwing them away as easily. There is no scientific conclusion to it. (And besides, how did you learn about the evidence you might claim? Read about it? )
And let me make it clear once and for all that believing there is something to the spiritual/religious experiences of people is not remotely the same as believing in every media fad, myth or fantasy. Furthermore, dont bring up god or religions here, cause I'm not talking about that. I am talking about the experience at the bottom of it, which may add a dimension to what we think of as "reality".
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I'm not getting this. Why can't we survive knowing the truth of reality? You are edging in on various god-arguments with that line. And who claimed that spirituality and/or religion would do anything about wars or whatnot?
That's the claim of spiritual and religious organizations.
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am not following your train of thought here, or the relevance to this debate.
That's ok, follow your path.
And maybe we have other sensory receptors not as easily identified. Maybe some aspect or combination of other senses align to other places in the brain. What the brain does is interpreting external sensations. So unless you wanna go into real hardcore relativism and matrix-models, the brain is picking up external stimuli and interpreting it.
Such as the vomeronasal organ. I agree there may be unidentified sensory organs, but that doesn't mean that definitely there is.
The brain does not simply interpet external sensations. Intuition and introspection are not interpretations of external sensations, but rather interpretations of unknowns, internal operations.
Determinism and free will have always been sported around. And what does believing in god have to do with it? Not once have I claimed that this experience people are having have anything to do with god or any other religious concoction. I am aiming at the experience itself, and not in what way people interpret it (which often is in the direction of the local religion).
So, you believe that all your experiences are truth?
No, now you are just using cheap shots to ridicule. All of your examples are physical objects that may or may not exist. How does that relate to a spiritual experience? Just because I may find it interesting to listen to things you find ridiculous, does not force me to accept everything you think is ridiculous. Bad examples. Experience alone, as I have said, is not hard evidence alone. However, mounting piles of such records, should lead one to acknowledge that something is going on here that we currently cannot account for. Particularly if explanations are similar.
They aren't cheap shots, don't dodge the point. You can't believe all experiences, you can only pick and choose which ones you want to believe or disregard all of them until you obtain further corroborating objective evidence. Which you do not, you take your own experience and people who share similar experiences as fact and disregard all others.
Well, if records started to pile up of this man appearing to people and telling them this, then I would say that an investigation into the claim and at least treat it seriously from the start is in order. You equate listening to other people's experiences with lies consistently, which is rather interesting dont you think? True experiences are the ones I experience. Period. And I have had experiences I would label spiritual.
So aliens do exist and abduct millions of people every year?
I have no way of knowing anything else other than by being told. Same for everyone. And I trust many many other people to be truthful to me about their experiences, as I tend to be truthful to them. So how do I differentiate? I do have internal "credit ratings" of what sources I do or do not trust. I use my brain and my judgement like all humans.
That sucks for you man, I can know things without being told. So if someone said they had a spiritual experience you would likely rate that high, but alien abduction probably rates quite low.
As do you.
Actually I don't, I disregard all experience as credible evidence, including my own. Unfortunately I'm forced to use personal experience to get points across here because most of you are newage hippies.
But my point was also that you dont have much more backing for your stance of the "nonsense" of such experiences, than I have for not throwing them away as easily. There is no scientific conclusion to it. (And besides, how did you learn about the evidence you might claim? Read about it? )
No scientific evidence for pyschosis? I guess we should shut down all the asylums across the world and let all the schizophrenics find their own way through life. Do you know what is unique about schizophrenia? They don't feel like they have free-will, their "self" is detached from their actions. Everything they do feels as if it is beyond their control. They do not have that feeling of free-will that you claim is evidence of free-will. So now you have two contradictory experiences, which do you believe? I believe that schizophrenia shows that a person can operate without the illusion of free-will, but they will operate like schizophrenics which would not be suitable for autonomous life.
And let me make it clear once and for all that believing there is something to the spiritual/religious experiences of people is not remotely the same as believing in every media fad, myth or fantasy. Furthermore, dont bring up god or religions here, cause I'm not talking about that. I am talking about the experience at the bottom of it, which may add a dimension to what we think of as "reality".
Peace
Dan
How do you discriminate?
There is plenty of evidence that feelings/experiences of "self", "Free-will" and "Spirituality" are illusions most likely selected for by evolution for their contribution to survivability.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That's the claim of spiritual and religious organizations.
That's ok, follow your path.
And I am not a spiritual or religious organization. I resent most of them.
Such as the vomeronasal organ. I agree there may be unidentified sensory organs, but that doesn't mean that definitely there is.
The brain does not simply interpet external sensations. Intuition and introspection are not interpretations of external sensations, but rather interpretations of unknowns, internal operations.
Also internal events, yes.
So, you believe that all your experiences are truth?
If I dont trust my experiences as true, where does that leave me? They are true to me at least.
They aren't cheap shots, don't dodge the point. You can't believe all experiences, you can only pick and choose which ones you want to believe or disregard all of them until you obtain further corroborating objective evidence. Which you do not, you take your own experience and people who share similar experiences as fact and disregard all others.
So aliens do exist and abduct millions of people every year?
You are the one attributing me positions and secret agendas or something that you want to head off. I dont believe all experiences or records and I am not asking you to either. I was pointing out that an experience that many people have had throughout history, and today by the millions and millions, and of which I have had a couple ones myself, rank a lot higher by me than various accounts about fabled animals that I have never seen. (but might well exist for all I know as I dont have evidence or experience of their non-existence either) And aliens? I dont know. I think there's something going on there, but what I have no opinion really.
That sucks for you man, I can know things without being told. So if someone said they had a spiritual experience you would likely rate that high, but alien abduction probably rates quite low.
So you invented neuroscience? Or, are you referring me things you have read about neuroscience? Alternately you just "know" things intuitively?
And for my rating, it would depend on the source first and foremost, but also through topic, yes. That's how we are built all of us.
Actually I don't, I disregard all experience as credible evidence, including my own. Unfortunately I'm forced to use personal experience to get points across here because most of you are newage hippies.
So the only credible experience is that of privileged scientists? Scientists are reporting their experience and observations. We generally trust them more, as do I to a large extent, but they are also experiencing, and giving accounts of them.
No scientific evidence for pyschosis? I guess we should shut down all the asylums across the world and let all the schizophrenics find their own way through life. Do you know what is unique about schizophrenia? They don't feel like they have free-will, their "self" is detached from their actions. Everything they do feels as if it is beyond their control. They do not have that feeling of free-will that you claim is evidence of free-will. So now you have two contradictory experiences, which do you believe? I believe that schizophrenia shows that a person can operate without the illusion of free-will, but they will operate like schizophrenics which would not be suitable for autonomous life.
Psychosis? I was talking about certain evidence about whether spiritual experiences are external or internal. I am not debating psychological disorders or their existence. Unless you are about to claim that half the world is suffering from a psychological disorder, in which case it wouldn't be a disorder by definition.
How do you discriminate?
There is plenty of evidence that feelings/experiences of "self", "Free-will" and "Spirituality" are illusions most likely selected for by evolution for their contribution to survivability.
There are also evidence that reality may be an illusion itslef, or hologram. That there are evidence to support a position does not mean it is automatically correct. Particularly about issues that are really hard to use traditional scientific methods on, results are few and can support many models, and there is no agreement even on what might count as evidence in the matter.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
There are also evidence that reality may be an illusion itslef, or hologram. That there are evidence to support a position does not mean it is automatically correct. Particularly about issues that are really hard to use traditional scientific methods on, results are few and can support many models, and there is no agreement even on what might count as evidence in the matter.
Peace
Dan
Keep on ignoring reality OOB.
Scientists perform observations in controlled environments and they are submitted for peer review. At laurentien university in sudbury ontario they perform experiments with spirituality and they induce spiritual episodes in people with TMS. You may want to check that out.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Scientists perform observations in controlled environments and they are submitted for peer review. At laurentien university in sudbury ontario they perform experiments with spirituality and they induce spiritual episodes in people with TMS. You may want to check that out.
When and where am I ignoring reality? Because I dont share your worldview, is that the definition of "reality"?
Interesting that it is being researched with scientific methods. But scientific method also have limits. We have debated that before in other threads. Science can only discover the things it's own criterias allow. If something cannot happen consistently on command in a lab (artificial) setting, it cannot be detected by science.
And besides, just because they can induce a spiritual experience, still does not explain it. It just locates it. Just as even if they can identify and trigger the hormone that brings happiness, does not explain why we are happy. It just describes what goes on in the brain, and allows us to imitate it.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
When and where am I ignoring reality? Because I dont share your worldview, is that the definition of "reality"?
Interesting that it is being researched with scientific methods. But scientific method also have limits. We have debated that before in other threads. Science can only discover the things it's own criterias allow. If something cannot happen consistently on command in a lab (artificial) setting, it cannot be detected by science.
And besides, just because they can induce a spiritual experience, still does not explain it. It just locates it. Just as even if they can identify and trigger the hormone that brings happiness, does not explain why we are happy. It just describes what goes on in the brain, and allows us to imitate it.
Peace
Dan
Again, science is the best method for discrimination.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hmm, I never trust science (Which is odd considering its one of my hghest graded subjects at school). You'll probably laugh, but fundamentally, science is just 'making it up as you go along' I'm sure that back in time, we thought that we had some great technology, but things change all the time. Really science is as accurate as we make it.
Hmm, I never trust science (Which is odd considering its one of my hghest graded subjects at school). You'll probably laugh, but fundamentally, science is just 'making it up as you go along' I'm sure that back in time, we thought that we had some great technology, but things change all the time. Really science is as accurate as we make it.
It's pretty effective though. Or you wouldn't be able to make these statements on an Internet message board using a computer. All of which are made possible by science.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
in my opinion science is only a way to know about our world; and everything that is in it; but if science dont help to mankind; thats just trash; if we can keep together science with fealings thats the perfect match!!!!!111
its not a bad time to be me; something made me realise it was time to get away from there or i was going to be just another loser!
Hmm, I never trust science (Which is odd considering its one of my hghest graded subjects at school). You'll probably laugh, but fundamentally, science is just 'making it up as you go along' I'm sure that back in time, we thought that we had some great technology, but things change all the time. Really science is as accurate as we make it.
you know i'm with you boom. sometimes science says stuff that i laugh at. the whole recent bullshit about pluto is a case in point. now they designate pluto a non planet? i've always thought that it was an escaped moon and the experts are only now coming to the conclusion that it's not a member of the planet club.
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you know i'm with you boom. sometimes science says stuff that i laugh at. the whole recent bullshit about pluto is a case in point. now they designate pluto a non planet? i've always thought that it was an escaped moon and the experts are only now coming to the conclusion that it's not a member of the planet club.
That doesn't' matter.
Besides pluto is an example of cosmologists recognizing there is something wrong with their percepts and adjusting them to make them more affective. Something others have difficulty with.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Besides pluto is an example of cosmologists recognizing there is something wrong with their percepts and adjusting them to make them more affective. Something others have difficulty with.
why doesn't it matter? and what exactly is it that doesn't matter?
in my eyes the 'fact' that pluto is an escaped moon in no way disqualified it membership in the planet club.
and when you say more effective what do you mean by that? it's not as if another planet is going to suddenly materialise within our solar system is it?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
why doesn't it matter? and what exactly is it that doesn't matter?
in my eyes the 'fact' that pluto is an escaped moon in no way disqualified it membership in the planet club.
and when you say more effective what do you mean by that? it's not as if another planet is going to suddenly materialise within our solar system is it?
It doesn't matter because it affects our lives in no way shape or form.
More effective at determining what is a planet and what isn't, but as I said it really doesn't matter. When it comes to electricity, a lot of things do matter and scientists get it right. If not for scientists like Nikola Tesla you would not be able to blow-dry your hair.
Science has made all of this progress in the last few hundred years. Religion, speculation, philosophy, etc... have had millenia to make progress and have done very little.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It doesn't matter because it affects our lives in no way shape or form.
More effective at determining what is a planet and what isn't, but as I said it really doesn't matter. When it comes to electricity, a lot of things do matter and scientists get it right. If not for scientists like Nikola Tesla you would not be able to blow-dry your hair.
Science has made all of this progress in the last few hundred years. Religion, speculation, philosophy, etc... have had millenia to make progress and have done very little.
nik tesla or not, i don't blow dry my hair.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
it's a spiritual book... it obviously has spiritual meanings. maybe you should try finding out what his wrath means.
see this is the thing. if you are a believer, God's wrath is a bitch. perhaps even if you are agnostic, which is a bet each way at best, God's wrath is also a bitch. but if like me, you are atheist then God's wrath is inconsequential as God does not exist. i know what God's wrath means to believers and possibly agnostic, but it does not mean anything to me.
hear my name
take a good look
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lie beside me
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Every time I feel the wrath of god coming on, I grab a book, take a nice dump, and I feel much better...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
if you are a believer, God's wrath is a bitch......i know what God's wrath means to believers
well it doesn't mean a bitch to me. God's wrath is justifiable. it's a holy wrath. His wrath is against the evil that has done harm to humanity. i mean, if you were to see the kind of evil that truly scared the crap out of you then you will understand God's wrath. cause his wrath is there to bring justice. but since you don't believe in the Bible it's kinda hard to explain.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Oh right, that stuff isn't addressed in the bible.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
well it doesn't mean a bitch to me. God's wrath is justifiable. it's a holy wrath. His wrath is against the evil that has done harm to humanity. i mean, if you were to see the kind of evil that truly scared the crap out of you then you will understand God's wrath. cause his wrath is there to bring justice. but since you don't believe in the Bible it's kinda hard to explain.
why does God allow such evil in the first place? does he allow it to manifest itself in order to see what the remainder of humanity do in reaction. is that the true measure of Man?
if it's so hard to explain, how am i ever going to understand where you're coming from. and thus how am i ever going to have the chance of being bought into the fold? or is it that i have to want to believe before i can understand God's wrath?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
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why does God allow such evil in the first place? does he allow it to manifest itself in order to see what the remainder of humanity do in reaction. is that the true measure of Man?
if it's so hard to explain, how am i ever going to understand where you're coming from. and thus how am i ever going to have the chance of being bought into the fold? or is it that i have to want to believe before i can understand God's wrath?
no, i'm just basing it on the idea that my beliefs would seem merely pathetic and boring to you. it's all. but i would think you need to have an open mind. i think?
as for evil being in this world... it entered through our believing in the devil. that's how it entered. it's not that God didn't allow it. he's not dictating anything in this life. it entered because we allowed it to enter our minds through a belief in a lie.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
no, i'm just basing it on the idea that my beliefs would seem merely pathetic and boring to you. it's all. but i would think you need to have an open mind. i think?
as for evil being in this world... it entered through our believing in the devil. that's how it entered. it's not that God didn't allow it. he's not dictating anything in this life. it entered because we allowed it to enter our minds through a belief in a lie.
see that wasn't so difficult was it. thank you. i did know that already, but to me it just brings up more questions.
and i do not find anyone's beliefs boring and far from pathetic. please do not make a judgement on me based on presumption. i am fascinated by it all. i do read the bible you know. a fact i share with the jehovah's witnesses that come to my door every now again trying to show me the light. they look at me with disbelief wondering how this is possible and yet remain an atheist.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
see that wasn't so difficult was it. thank you. i did know that already, but to me it just brings up more questions.
and i do not find anyone's beliefs boring and far from pathetic. please do not make a judgement on me based on presumption. i am fascinated by it all. i do read the bible you know. a fact i share with the jehovah's witnesses that come to my door every now again trying to show me the light. they look at me with disbelief wondering how this is possible and yet remain an atheist.
i had a jehovah witness friend. our ideas are so contrary to each other. primarily because their book is different from what i read. so we always had very opposing views. i will never make presumptions of you again. so i'll remember your name in order to avoid that
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Again, science is the best method for discrimination.
Science is one of the better methods we have, yes. But although it can give us good knowledge on many subjects, it's scope is by definition limited by it's own premises. So there are a lot of room outside what we can scientifically know.
That is my only point really. Science is a good source of knowledge, perhaps the best, but also flawed and limited.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Science is one of the better methods we have, yes. But although it can give us good knowledge on many subjects, it's scope is by definition limited by it's own premises. So there are a lot of room outside what we can scientifically know.
That is my only point really. Science is a good source of knowledge, perhaps the best, but also flawed and limited.
Peace
Dan
My point is nothing else is any less flawed.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Wouldn't disagree to that.
But other methods are flawed in other ways, making an effort to combine methods and approaches important.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
Ah, it all makes sense now. Having a mystical experience are we? Probably explains all the gaseous fumes as well
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Not with the fumes-thing, at least not literally, but with the 'stay away'. I can't deal with the logic here. I can't. I mean even with you, baraka, ahnimus, and countless others, there isn't anything here for me. I already know what you're going to say, for the most part. It's a merry-go-round anymore.
I could write a poem about an old man on a merry-go-round right now. LOL.
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Actually no, but I've watch digital representations of butterflies on my computer
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am not following your train of thought here, or the relevance to this debate.
And maybe we have other sensory receptors not as easily identified. Maybe some aspect or combination of other senses align to other places in the brain. What the brain does is interpreting external sensations. So unless you wanna go into real hardcore relativism and matrix-models, the brain is picking up external stimuli and interpreting it.
Determinism and free will have always been sported around. And what does believing in god have to do with it? Not once have I claimed that this experience people are having have anything to do with god or any other religious concoction. I am aiming at the experience itself, and not in what way people interpret it (which often is in the direction of the local religion).
No, now you are just using cheap shots to ridicule. All of your examples are physical objects that may or may not exist. How does that relate to a spiritual experience? Just because I may find it interesting to listen to things you find ridiculous, does not force me to accept everything you think is ridiculous. Bad examples. Experience alone, as I have said, is not hard evidence alone. However, mounting piles of such records, should lead one to acknowledge that something is going on here that we currently cannot account for. Particularly if explanations are similar.
Well, if records started to pile up of this man appearing to people and telling them this, then I would say that an investigation into the claim and at least treat it seriously from the start is in order. You equate listening to other people's experiences with lies consistently, which is rather interesting dont you think? True experiences are the ones I experience. Period. And I have had experiences I would label spiritual.
I have no way of knowing anything else other than by being told. Same for everyone. And I trust many many other people to be truthful to me about their experiences, as I tend to be truthful to them. So how do I differentiate? I do have internal "credit ratings" of what sources I do or do not trust. I use my brain and my judgement like all humans.
As do you.
But my point was also that you dont have much more backing for your stance of the "nonsense" of such experiences, than I have for not throwing them away as easily. There is no scientific conclusion to it. (And besides, how did you learn about the evidence you might claim? Read about it?
And let me make it clear once and for all that believing there is something to the spiritual/religious experiences of people is not remotely the same as believing in every media fad, myth or fantasy. Furthermore, dont bring up god or religions here, cause I'm not talking about that. I am talking about the experience at the bottom of it, which may add a dimension to what we think of as "reality".
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
That's the claim of spiritual and religious organizations.
That's ok, follow your path.
Such as the vomeronasal organ. I agree there may be unidentified sensory organs, but that doesn't mean that definitely there is.
The brain does not simply interpet external sensations. Intuition and introspection are not interpretations of external sensations, but rather interpretations of unknowns, internal operations.
So, you believe that all your experiences are truth?
They aren't cheap shots, don't dodge the point. You can't believe all experiences, you can only pick and choose which ones you want to believe or disregard all of them until you obtain further corroborating objective evidence. Which you do not, you take your own experience and people who share similar experiences as fact and disregard all others.
So aliens do exist and abduct millions of people every year?
That sucks for you man, I can know things without being told. So if someone said they had a spiritual experience you would likely rate that high, but alien abduction probably rates quite low.
Actually I don't, I disregard all experience as credible evidence, including my own. Unfortunately I'm forced to use personal experience to get points across here because most of you are newage hippies.
No scientific evidence for pyschosis? I guess we should shut down all the asylums across the world and let all the schizophrenics find their own way through life. Do you know what is unique about schizophrenia? They don't feel like they have free-will, their "self" is detached from their actions. Everything they do feels as if it is beyond their control. They do not have that feeling of free-will that you claim is evidence of free-will. So now you have two contradictory experiences, which do you believe? I believe that schizophrenia shows that a person can operate without the illusion of free-will, but they will operate like schizophrenics which would not be suitable for autonomous life.
How do you discriminate?
There is plenty of evidence that feelings/experiences of "self", "Free-will" and "Spirituality" are illusions most likely selected for by evolution for their contribution to survivability.
Also internal events, yes.
If I dont trust my experiences as true, where does that leave me? They are true to me at least.
You are the one attributing me positions and secret agendas or something that you want to head off. I dont believe all experiences or records and I am not asking you to either. I was pointing out that an experience that many people have had throughout history, and today by the millions and millions, and of which I have had a couple ones myself, rank a lot higher by me than various accounts about fabled animals that I have never seen. (but might well exist for all I know as I dont have evidence or experience of their non-existence either) And aliens? I dont know. I think there's something going on there, but what I have no opinion really.
So you invented neuroscience? Or, are you referring me things you have read about neuroscience? Alternately you just "know" things intuitively?
And for my rating, it would depend on the source first and foremost, but also through topic, yes. That's how we are built all of us.
So the only credible experience is that of privileged scientists? Scientists are reporting their experience and observations. We generally trust them more, as do I to a large extent, but they are also experiencing, and giving accounts of them.
Psychosis? I was talking about certain evidence about whether spiritual experiences are external or internal. I am not debating psychological disorders or their existence. Unless you are about to claim that half the world is suffering from a psychological disorder, in which case it wouldn't be a disorder by definition.
There are also evidence that reality may be an illusion itslef, or hologram.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Keep on ignoring reality OOB.
Scientists perform observations in controlled environments and they are submitted for peer review. At laurentien university in sudbury ontario they perform experiments with spirituality and they induce spiritual episodes in people with TMS. You may want to check that out.
Interesting that it is being researched with scientific methods. But scientific method also have limits. We have debated that before in other threads. Science can only discover the things it's own criterias allow. If something cannot happen consistently on command in a lab (artificial) setting, it cannot be detected by science.
And besides, just because they can induce a spiritual experience, still does not explain it. It just locates it. Just as even if they can identify and trigger the hormone that brings happiness, does not explain why we are happy. It just describes what goes on in the brain, and allows us to imitate it.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Again, science is the best method for discrimination.
there you are.
- brain of c
It's pretty effective though. Or you wouldn't be able to make these statements on an Internet message board using a computer. All of which are made possible by science.
you know i'm with you boom. sometimes science says stuff that i laugh at. the whole recent bullshit about pluto is a case in point. now they designate pluto a non planet? i've always thought that it was an escaped moon and the experts are only now coming to the conclusion that it's not a member of the planet club.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That doesn't' matter.
Besides pluto is an example of cosmologists recognizing there is something wrong with their percepts and adjusting them to make them more affective. Something others have difficulty with.
why doesn't it matter? and what exactly is it that doesn't matter?
in my eyes the 'fact' that pluto is an escaped moon in no way disqualified it membership in the planet club.
and when you say more effective what do you mean by that? it's not as if another planet is going to suddenly materialise within our solar system is it?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It doesn't matter because it affects our lives in no way shape or form.
More effective at determining what is a planet and what isn't, but as I said it really doesn't matter. When it comes to electricity, a lot of things do matter and scientists get it right. If not for scientists like Nikola Tesla you would not be able to blow-dry your hair.
Science has made all of this progress in the last few hundred years. Religion, speculation, philosophy, etc... have had millenia to make progress and have done very little.
nik tesla or not, i don't blow dry my hair.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
see this is the thing. if you are a believer, God's wrath is a bitch. perhaps even if you are agnostic, which is a bet each way at best, God's wrath is also a bitch. but if like me, you are atheist then God's wrath is inconsequential as God does not exist. i know what God's wrath means to believers and possibly agnostic, but it does not mean anything to me.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Oh right, that stuff isn't addressed in the bible.
why does God allow such evil in the first place? does he allow it to manifest itself in order to see what the remainder of humanity do in reaction. is that the true measure of Man?
if it's so hard to explain, how am i ever going to understand where you're coming from. and thus how am i ever going to have the chance of being bought into the fold? or is it that i have to want to believe before i can understand God's wrath?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
as for evil being in this world... it entered through our believing in the devil. that's how it entered. it's not that God didn't allow it. he's not dictating anything in this life. it entered because we allowed it to enter our minds through a belief in a lie.
see that wasn't so difficult was it.
and i do not find anyone's beliefs boring and far from pathetic. please do not make a judgement on me based on presumption. i am fascinated by it all. i do read the bible you know. a fact i share with the jehovah's witnesses that come to my door every now again trying to show me the light. they look at me with disbelief wondering how this is possible and yet remain an atheist.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That is my only point really. Science is a good source of knowledge, perhaps the best, but also flawed and limited.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
My point is nothing else is any less flawed.
But other methods are flawed in other ways, making an effort to combine methods and approaches important.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Random Fact of The Day: Nikola Tesla suffered from colombophillia- he fell in love with pigeons.