Ankle-biting Democrats

Lerxst1992

I dunno, vox gets it


” Give me the short version of your story: How did Democrats end up in their present state? 

Since Barack Obama won reelection in 2012, the Democratic Party has undergone two really major shifts. First, we have shifted our priorities, focusing less on kitchen table economic issues and more on issues that are less concrete and more abstract to voters: climate change, democracy, abortion, and other identity and cultural issues.

Meanwhile, the Democratic Party became a lot more left-wing than it used to be across the board. In 2013, 24 percent of Democrats in Congress co-sponsored Medicare-for-all. In 2023, that was 47 percent. In 2013, 41 percent of Democrats in Congress co-sponsored an assault weapons ban. Now, it’s 88 percent. Only 1 percent co-sponsored a reparations study bill in 2013. Now, that’s a majority. And I think these two shifts are primarily responsible for the situation that Democrats are in today.

I think many progressives would say that your theory of the case was already tried and found wanting. Kamala Harris ran to the center in 2024, advertising herself as a border hawk and tough prosecutor. She campaigned with Liz Cheney and eschewed bold progressive promises. And she lost. Meanwhile, in 2020, Joe Biden actually ran on the most progressive platform in the party’s history and won. 

I think both Biden in 2020 and Kamala Harris in 2024 show us that voters are evaluating candidates in large part on their record over a period of several years, not just in the three months before the election.

Kamala Harris was a senator between 2016 and 2020. I believe she was the second-most left-wing senator in the country, based on her voting record. When she ran for president, she endorsed a whole slew of left-wing policies, from banning fracking to banning plastic straws. Then, she became vice president for a president that the overwhelming majority of Americans thought was too liberal. And then, she refused to distance herself from any of that president’s actual policy positions. And when she moved away from some of her own older stances, she did it quietly and never articulated an explanation for why she thought those old ideas were bad.

I don’t think that Kamala Harris’s efforts to moderate hurt her electorally. We saw, during her short-lived campaign, that her approval rating went up a lot from the beginning to the end. So, I think it’s sort of hard to argue that her efforts to moderate were the reason she lost. But, at the same time, I think it really just shows that you can’t expect to talk a big game on border policy in the three months before the election if your actual border policy when you’re in office allows millions of unauthorized immigrants to come into the country.

And then, with Biden in 2020, he was coasting off of his longstanding reputation of being a moderate Democrat and being to the right of other Democrats. When he actually took office, he governed as progressive; progressives acknowledged this at the time. And then, during his administration, the data shows that the share of voters who thought that Joe Biden was too liberal increased dramatically. And so, I think it’s just a good example of, again, your substantive positions really matter for how voters perceive you.

Tim Simmons

Link? 

Like, who is that talking? 

Tim Simmons

But it sounds like if they got back to kitchen table issues, people would be happy. No reason to abandon the moral high ground. You can do both! 

Lerxst1992

Tim Simmons said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Tim Simmons said:

I mean you act like no one has any ideas of how to win elections. Dems have won more than half of the elections going back to 2004 (losing only 04, 10, 14, 16 and 20). 1 loss in a row is not a losing streak.

2 of 3 losses to trump could have worse ramifications than all of those other years combined . My point was, as it is often, a politicians job is to cater their message to the voters that exist, not the voters they wish existed. Win elections, prove your ideas work, then maybe try the Karl Marx crap attacks on our great system.

What was their message to voters in 2024 that they wish would exist? 

Voters they wish existed. Don’t even need to point to AZ or GA or NC, that the mamdani, AOC, sanders messages will not even sell a couple miles outside NYC nor upstate NY. I know, give me a poll of how well Medicare for All does, but we’ve yet to see that translating to any results in congress nor the White House. I know, it’s because the forces of democrats are fighting against those candidates.

well… all we have is the 2020 primaries to prove that M4A fails in the ballot box, because we weren’t allowed to have honest primaries in 2024.

Tim Simmons

the 2020 primaries didn't prove M4A fails at the ballot box. How can something that is popular, cause someone to fail?

Biden over Bernie shows that people preferred Biden over Bernie. 

Tim Simmons

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

Lerxst1992

Tim Simmons said:

Link? 

Like, who is that talking? 

Google/ “vox dems present” or

https://www.vox.com/politics/466253/why-democrats-unpopular-polls-welcome

Tim Simmons

OK, so this is the context you have left out. 

Or so argues a new report from Welcome PAC, an organization that backs center-left candidates, so as to build “a big-tent Democratic Party.”

Kind of an important qualifier of the mouthpiece saying "Dems should be more center"

Lerxst1992

Tim Simmons said:

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

Mamdani won it in a primary, a good turnout primary but still way under 30%.

He is not challenged on election day where a +40 D registration advantage will equate to about a ten point win.

the real challenge on Election Day is how the rest of NYS votes. If Rs do well, the governor, a fiscal moderate and against tax hikes, will be less likely to sign any sweeping expensive new laws.

and this is in deep blue  NY. 

But I realize AMT is a place that refuses to believe Dems went 0-7 in swing states. A virtual maga mirror!

 I don’t know if NYS is blue enough to test out our favorite socialist dreams.

Halifax2TheMax

Tim Simmons said:

OK, so this is the context you have left out. 

Or so argues a new report from Welcome PAC, an organization that backs center-left candidates, so as to build “a big-tent Democratic Party.”

Kind of an important qualifier of the mouthpiece saying "Dems should be more center"

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Just another media anecdote. Nothing to get worked up about.

Tim Simmons

Lerxst1992 said:

Tim Simmons said:

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

But I realize AMT is a place that refuses to believe Dems went 0-7 in swing states. A virtual maga mirror!

 

2 people saying it doesn't make it a widespread belief.

Tim Simmons

Lerxst1992 said:

Tim Simmons said:

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

the real challenge on Election Day is how the rest of NYS votes. If Rs do well, the governor, a fiscal moderate and against tax hikes, will be less likely to sign any sweeping expensive new laws.

Right.

You can't have this AND get to say "see progressive policies don't work!!".

Tim Simmons

the most successful progressive policy of the past 20 years has been the ACA and its mega successful because it had a majority backing. Yes there was pushback but time proved it to be incredibly successful. So much so, the gutting of it right now by this Admin and its congress, is creating outrage and bad effects for Americans. 

This stuff can work, but there are elements working against it (Not just the mega wealthy, corporations and the GOP, but basic ass MOR Dems who are basically a lite version of conservatism)

Gern Blansten

Tim Simmons said:

the most successful progressive policy of the past 20 years has been the ACA and its mega successful because it had a majority backing. Yes there was pushback but time proved it to be incredibly successful. So much so, the gutting of it right now by this Admin and its congress, is creating outrage and bad effects for Americans. 

This stuff can work, but there are elements working against it (Not just the mega wealthy, corporations and the GOP, but basic ass MOR Dems who are basically a lite version of conservatism)

exactly....just the idea of bringing back pre-existing conditions would cause major issues

tbergs

Tim Simmons said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Tim Simmons said:

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

But I realize AMT is a place that refuses to believe Dems went 0-7 in swing states. A virtual maga mirror!

 

2 people saying it doesn't make it a widespread belief.

I for one believe it. Some people just want to believe we're better than that as a country, but we're not. That's demonstrated almost daily by those in charge and the fact that a majority of Americans aren't outraged by what they're doing.

DE4173

On my "to watch" list:

Kamala Harris made history as America’s first female, first Black, and first South Asian Vice President.

Today, she sits down with me for the longest interview she has ever had…

Before becoming Vice President, she served as California’s Attorney General and later as a U.S. Senator.

In a time when America feels divided and uncertain, Kamala told me I could ask her anything… and that’s what I did. 

We spoke candidly about the night she thought she’d won, a moment she says felt almost unreal comparing it to the loss of her mother.

https://x.com/StevenBartlett/status/1983806076194640327?t=HG7Cr8o1NtViqPVf9KC45g&s=19

Here's the full conversation:

https://x.com/StevenBartlett/status/1983807077274546559?t=tRlR8jdOiz8aYXPDz0fAQQ&s=19

or 

https://youtu.be/D3lhrrXb4WI?si=p1tcCvDOZJD_CP9c

gimmesometruth27

Tim Simmons said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Tim Simmons said:

All I'm reading is you don't like progressives or their policies and you are backing into your argument.



Again, progressive policies are popular. Democrats as a party, are generally MOR. Their leaders are as middle as you can get. They are gonna back candidates that are more middle (look no further than Jeffries reticence to back Mamdani). The people don't like Democrats a little less than they don't like republicans. Therefore Democrats should start pushing populist policies that would make the people like them. Like Mamdani has. 

I mean this isn't rocket science. 

But I realize AMT is a place that refuses to believe Dems went 0-7 in swing states. A virtual maga mirror!

 

2 people saying it doesn't make it a widespread belief.

no way in hell trump was the first candidate in 60 years to run the table on all 7 swing states. i will take that to the bank.

gimmesometruth27

Tim Simmons said:

the most successful progressive policy of the past 20 years has been the ACA and its mega successful because it had a majority backing. Yes there was pushback but time proved it to be incredibly successful. So much so, the gutting of it right now by this Admin and its congress, is creating outrage and bad effects for Americans. 

This stuff can work, but there are elements working against it (Not just the mega wealthy, corporations and the GOP, but basic ass MOR Dems who are basically a lite version of conservatism)

if nationalized health care is so bad, how come only 31 of the 32 most economically powerful countries on the planet have figured it out?

Lerxst1992

Gern Blansten said:

Tim Simmons said:

the most successful progressive policy of the past 20 years has been the ACA and its mega successful because it had a majority backing. Yes there was pushback but time proved it to be incredibly successful. So much so, the gutting of it right now by this Admin and its congress, is creating outrage and bad effects for Americans. 

This stuff can work, but there are elements working against it (Not just the mega wealthy, corporations and the GOP, but basic ass MOR Dems who are basically a lite version of conservatism)

exactly....just the idea of bringing back pre-existing conditions would cause major issues

Right. Because ACA was laser focused on solving a handful of problems and piggybacked off of the existing system, which had benefits Dems were slow to acknowledge, like development of new treatments and technology.

the nyc front runner is wanting to do the exact opposite with housing, transport and child care, to name a few. He is talking takeover.