chavez wants to run ALL school his way. why are you defending this? I dont need to go to a school in Venezuela. I'm going off what chavez himself is saying.
All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.
"We want to create our own ideology collectively — creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity."
All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.
this isn't happening in America or anywhere in Europe
maybe that's a good thing. maybe their education needs a serious kick in the ass so this doesn't happen:
of course, you'll probably find a way to blame chavez for that one too.
Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.
And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.
Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.
And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.
Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.
And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.
(Full reform proposal for those who can read Spanish)
Saludos,
Caterina
i cant read spanish unfortunately i hope to learn soon though, im planning to study abroad next year in your city!
that's interesting though. from that perspective, it sounds like the easy-out socialist plan of restricting the top rather than bringing up the bottom. rather than bring the public schools up to make sure the elite or wealthy don't have an edge, they bring the latter down by controlling their schools.
what is the boliviaran system? if it's not too much to get a layman's guide.
sorry, I don't see how having one man take over all schools a good thing.
it was kind of a joke... as in "where did this guy get his education that he couldn't tell his subject was dead? they need someone to fix their schools."
And your anti-chavez sentiments come from?
Could it be...indoctrinization?
Nope, I have not been indoctrinated and I've not been bought by the opposition as someone suggested on a previous thread. I don't have any political affiliation and I work for the UN, so as you it's not like I work for an anti-Chavez organization. My anti-Chávez sentiments come from my principles, my values, my academic background and me having lived in Venezuela and being there in Caracas during both of his attempts to overthrow a democratically elected President.
And yes, I see a huge difference between me being 34 year old and deciding my political beliefs and 7 year old kids being taught that only Marxism will bring them happiness. I was given the chance to have a choice those kids won't, and for me that's wrong. If they want to be Marxists or Chavistas fine by me, but give them all the tools to make an informed decision.
Nope, I have not been indoctrinated and I've not been bought by the opposition as someone suggested on a previous thread. I don't have any political affiliation and I work for the UN, so as you it's not like I work for an anti-Chavez organization. My anti-Chávez sentiments come from my principles, my values, my academic background and me having lived in Venezuela and being there in Caracas during both of his attempts to overthrow a democratically elected President.
And yes, I see a huge difference between me being 34 year old and deciding my political beliefs and 7 year old kids being taught that only Marxism will bring them happiness. I was given the chance to have a choice those kids won't, and for me that's wrong. If they want to be Marxists or Chavistas fine by me, but give them all the tools to make an informed decision.
I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.
I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.
then what does that make you? sounds like you're rather indoctrinated too. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing bush is doing might be a good thing. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing chavez is doing might be a bad thing.
then what does that make you? sounds like you're rather indoctrinated too. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing bush is doing might be a good thing. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing chavez is doing might be a bad thing.
Indoctrinated to what? You'll have to do better than that.
Search my posts. You'll be hard pressed to even find a Bush reference. Or even a Chavez one.
And you're contributing to the problem with your oversimplification. This sort of Bush=bad Chavez=good analogy. That isn't what this is about. But that's what you are doing, and that is what caterina does when it comes to Chavez, without fail.
Indoctrinated to what? You'll have to do better than that.
Search my posts. You'll be hard pressed to even find a Bush reference. Or even a Chavez one.
And you're contributing to the problem with your oversimplification. This sort of Bush=bad Chavez=good analogy. That isn't what this is about. But that's what you are doing, and that is what caterina does when it comes to Chavez, without fail.
it's what i've seen you doing... us government is evil and murdering, socialist governments are angelic. you seem pretty simplified to me.
i've never seen caterina posting about chavez before. and seeing as she's from venezuela, i'd say she's got a pretty good case to be a touch more knowledgeable about what's going on there than you, who gets your news from prisonplanet or whatever other paranoid conspiracy driven source you like. her post did not seem over-simplified at all. her post seemed very specific, intelligent, and informed in its analysis of the effect of this move on venezuela's education system.
becos that's what i've seen you doing. i've never seen caterina posting about chavez before. and seeing as she's from venezuela, i'd say she's got a pretty good case to be a touch more knowledgeable about what's going on there than you, who gets your news from prisonplanet or whatever other paranoid conspiracy driven source you like. her post did not seem over-simplified at all. her post seemed very specific, intelligent, and informed in its analysis of the effect of this move on venezuela's education system.
Tell it to Caterina, and careful about catergorizing me.
i cant read spanish unfortunately i hope to learn soon though, im planning to study abroad next year in your city!
that's interesting though. from that perspective, it sounds like the easy-out socialist plan of restricting the top rather than bringing up the bottom. rather than bring the public schools up to make sure the elite or wealthy don't have an edge, they bring the latter down by controlling their schools.
what is the boliviaran system? if it's not too much to get a layman's guide.
Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.
OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays . The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.
I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(
I'll categorize you. you are pro-chavez. and you take his move on the educational system as a good thing.
See, this is where your education ... lack of education, and the American Public Education system fails. Whatever man took over your school sure did a number on you. I can't be pro-chavez. I don't live in Venezuela. Chavez is irrelevant to me.
See, this is where your education ... lack of education, and the American Public Education system fails. Whatever man took over your school sure did a number on you. I can't be pro-chavez. I don't live in Venezuela. Chavez is irrelevant to me.
thats a good one. so I'll ask. do you agree or disagree with Chavez's goal of taking over ALL schools?
Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.
OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays . The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.
I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(
Well, see, now you're suggesting they wouldn't be teaching the basics. That's just preposterous BS.
thats a good one. so I'll ask. do you agree or disagree with Chavez's goal of taking over ALL schools?
He's trying to implement a plan. Our State of Education does it all the time. There's nothing to be alarmed about here. At this point the Bolivarian System is in the first stages, and it is very oriented in Patriotism. I'm sure, in time, it will evolve and mature.
I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.
Well, I could write a paper about why I oppose him, but I don't have the time to do so from my work, so that's why I rarely post and usually keep it short.
Have you ever asked me if I think Chavez has done something right? I fully acknowledge why he's on power. I'm fully aware of the crisis that political parties were facing in 1998 and why people chose him. That does not mean I have to like him and agree with his actions. His government has made some improvements in the health department an there's been some poverty reduction and women are getting more respect and participation in public life. Yet, the cost-benefit equation is negative, the outcomes are way too modest and way too expensive.
He's trying to implement a plan. Our State of Education does it all the time. There's nothing to be alarmed about here. At this point the Bolivarian System is in the first stages, and it is very oriented in Patriotism. I'm sure, in time, it will evolve and mature.
the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.
Well, I could write a paper about why I oppose him, but I don't have the time to do so from my work, so that's why I rarely post and usually keep it short.
Have you ever asked me if I think Chavez has done something right? I fully acknowledge why he's on power. I'm fully aware of the crisis that political parties were facing in 1998 and why people chose him. That does not mean I have to like him and agree with his actions. His government has made some improvements in the health department an there's been some poverty reduction and women are getting more respect and participation in public life. Yet, the cost-benefit equation is negative, the outcomes are way too modest and way too expensive.
So, your idea would be to keep it a society of haves and have-nots.
Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.
OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays . The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.
I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(
that's ok. do they still learn math and science and whatnot?
cos i have to say, despite jlew's praise of the open-minded and fair educational system, i NEVER learned in elementary or high school that anything but capitalism as good. the lesson from day one was "we are the only and best free country in the world and communist countries are all poor and dirty"
the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.
our dept of education doesnt do
that is bullshit man. if you had any schooling that suggested communism or socialism were valid alternatives, i want to know where. we were indoctrinated with the capitalist american dream and patriotism from day one and you cannot deny that. russia was evil no matter what they did, and any government but ours left people poor and hungry. it went right down to christian prayers in every school and forcing every kid to say the pledge daily.
So, your idea would be to keep it a society of haves and have-nots.
Wow, you've got it all wrong. Listen, I work at the UN in poverty reduction projects and I used to work for Argentina's Bureau of Economics in an income distribution project. So it's not like I'm not familiar with the subject, trust me I know what I'm talking about
My point is that you don't need to destroy a democracy and polarize an entire country to reduce poverty and to provide better healthcare and education. Poverty and inequality reduction strategies need functioning institutions in order to have success. And right now Venezuela's institutions are reaching their lowest point in history.
Comments
I have my own mindset. You know that. You shouldn't buffer your individuality with political artifices of defeat.
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maybe that's a good thing. maybe their education needs a serious kick in the ass so this doesn't happen:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070917/od_nm/autopsy_dc_1
of course, you'll probably find a way to blame chavez for that one too.
sorry, I don't see how having one man take over all schools a good thing.
Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.
And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.
http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/09/19/sistemabolivariano.pdf
(Full reform proposal for those who can read Spanish)
Saludos,
Caterina
And your anti-chavez sentiments come from?
Could it be...indoctrinization?
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i cant read spanish unfortunately
that's interesting though. from that perspective, it sounds like the easy-out socialist plan of restricting the top rather than bringing up the bottom. rather than bring the public schools up to make sure the elite or wealthy don't have an edge, they bring the latter down by controlling their schools.
what is the boliviaran system? if it's not too much to get a layman's guide.
it was kind of a joke... as in "where did this guy get his education that he couldn't tell his subject was dead? they need someone to fix their schools."
Nope, I have not been indoctrinated and I've not been bought by the opposition as someone suggested on a previous thread. I don't have any political affiliation and I work for the UN, so as you it's not like I work for an anti-Chavez organization. My anti-Chávez sentiments come from my principles, my values, my academic background and me having lived in Venezuela and being there in Caracas during both of his attempts to overthrow a democratically elected President.
And yes, I see a huge difference between me being 34 year old and deciding my political beliefs and 7 year old kids being taught that only Marxism will bring them happiness. I was given the chance to have a choice those kids won't, and for me that's wrong. If they want to be Marxists or Chavistas fine by me, but give them all the tools to make an informed decision.
I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
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then what does that make you? sounds like you're rather indoctrinated too. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing bush is doing might be a good thing. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing chavez is doing might be a bad thing.
Indoctrinated to what? You'll have to do better than that.
Search my posts. You'll be hard pressed to even find a Bush reference. Or even a Chavez one.
And you're contributing to the problem with your oversimplification. This sort of Bush=bad Chavez=good analogy. That isn't what this is about. But that's what you are doing, and that is what caterina does when it comes to Chavez, without fail.
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it's what i've seen you doing... us government is evil and murdering, socialist governments are angelic. you seem pretty simplified to me.
i've never seen caterina posting about chavez before. and seeing as she's from venezuela, i'd say she's got a pretty good case to be a touch more knowledgeable about what's going on there than you, who gets your news from prisonplanet or whatever other paranoid conspiracy driven source you like. her post did not seem over-simplified at all. her post seemed very specific, intelligent, and informed in its analysis of the effect of this move on venezuela's education system.
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i already did. and i'll not "categorize" you when i'm given reason to believe my impressions are wrong.
I'll categorize you. you are pro-chavez. and you take his move on the educational system as a good thing.
Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.
OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays
I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(
See, this is where your education ... lack of education, and the American Public Education system fails. Whatever man took over your school sure did a number on you. I can't be pro-chavez. I don't live in Venezuela. Chavez is irrelevant to me.
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thats a good one. so I'll ask. do you agree or disagree with Chavez's goal of taking over ALL schools?
Well, see, now you're suggesting they wouldn't be teaching the basics. That's just preposterous BS.
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He's trying to implement a plan. Our State of Education does it all the time. There's nothing to be alarmed about here. At this point the Bolivarian System is in the first stages, and it is very oriented in Patriotism. I'm sure, in time, it will evolve and mature.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Well, I could write a paper about why I oppose him, but I don't have the time to do so from my work, so that's why I rarely post and usually keep it short.
Have you ever asked me if I think Chavez has done something right? I fully acknowledge why he's on power. I'm fully aware of the crisis that political parties were facing in 1998 and why people chose him. That does not mean I have to like him and agree with his actions. His government has made some improvements in the health department an there's been some poverty reduction and women are getting more respect and participation in public life. Yet, the cost-benefit equation is negative, the outcomes are way too modest and way too expensive.
the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.
our dept of education doesnt do
So, your idea would be to keep it a society of haves and have-nots.
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that's ok. do they still learn math and science and whatnot?
cos i have to say, despite jlew's praise of the open-minded and fair educational system, i NEVER learned in elementary or high school that anything but capitalism as good. the lesson from day one was "we are the only and best free country in the world and communist countries are all poor and dirty"
You're weak, Jlew.
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when you run out of something to say, resort to personal insults. well done.
that is bullshit man. if you had any schooling that suggested communism or socialism were valid alternatives, i want to know where. we were indoctrinated with the capitalist american dream and patriotism from day one and you cannot deny that. russia was evil no matter what they did, and any government but ours left people poor and hungry. it went right down to christian prayers in every school and forcing every kid to say the pledge daily.
I'm not trying to insult you. But I can.
Let me just suggest a course in critical thinking.
Really.
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I was taught about communism and socialism. you weren't?
and this is a bad thing?
nope I was never taught this. cold war was over when I was in school. and never ever was taught your complete and utter bullshit last sentence.
I was not taught your bullshit last sentence.
Wow, you've got it all wrong. Listen, I work at the UN in poverty reduction projects and I used to work for Argentina's Bureau of Economics in an income distribution project. So it's not like I'm not familiar with the subject, trust me I know what I'm talking about
My point is that you don't need to destroy a democracy and polarize an entire country to reduce poverty and to provide better healthcare and education. Poverty and inequality reduction strategies need functioning institutions in order to have success. And right now Venezuela's institutions are reaching their lowest point in history.