I haven't kept up with this thread, but this point intrigues me. Could you elaborate on it?
I really can't understand the mentality that makes people feel the need to carry a gun 'for protection'. I grew up around firearms, and I still use them occasionally, but I just can't fathom the kind of paranoid mindset that makes you feel that its justifiable to carry a handgun.
i'll take this question.
1) i live on a ranch where rattlesnakes and mountain lions are frequent sights. i raise the most dangerous animal in north america because of it's medical value; AND; because profit hungry companies are destroying the medical values by improper care and feeding. i live 4 hours from the nearest anti-venom and 90% of the time; i'm alone. a gun here is a tool every rancher relies on and i shouldn't be punished because of someone elses abuse.
2) i was held at gunpoint. a shotgun held inches from my nose. i will never experience that kind of fear again. i can't turn on the tv without seeing people being killed. hollywood has desensitized the population with killing in games and what we watch. the only thing i really watch anymore is raymond; and the history/national geographic/science channels. once you're held at gunpoint you're never the same.
LOL. If it saves just one life it is worth being stripped of your liberties? Blah. With that logic we'd be better off banning swimming pools, Big Macs, automobiles, motorcycles, etc...
As Benjamin Franklin said: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
Actually, if I could save someone's life by giving away my liberties I would. But that's not what I said at all, I can't see how you equate tougher laws with being stripped of your liberties, unless you think your liberties are that nothing in life should be hard or any work.
What if it mean 2,000 more people killed every year because they had no means to defend themselves? Would you still be for 'tougher laws'?
See jeffbr, 69charger and you quoted me on the same thing the difference is, 69charger actually came up with a good argument.
In my opinion, there aren't many scenario's where a gun would save your life. Of course, I don't live in the USA, the country of fear, I guess that's a big difference.
Actually, if I could save someone's life by giving away my liberties I would. But that's not what I said at all, I can't see how you equate tougher laws with being stripped of your liberties, unless you think your liberties are that nothing in life should be hard or any work.
Protecting my liberties is hard work, as evidenced by the number of gun banners out there. Thanks for proving my point. And if you can't see how laws are created to limit or restrict liberties or freedoms, then you've been drinking too much of the koolaid.
Actually, if I could save someone's life by giving away my liberties I would. But that's not what I said at all, I can't see how you equate tougher laws with being stripped of your liberties, unless you think your liberties are that nothing in life should be hard or any work.
See jeffbr, 69charger and you quoted me on the same thing the difference is, 69charger actually came up with a good argument.
In my opinion, there aren't many scenario's where a gun would save your life. Of course, I don't live in the USA, the country of fear, I guess that's a big difference.
first; by saying you'd give up any liberties; spits in the face of all those who have died that others may have freedom. how dare you.
next; if the USA is the country of fear; then you must live where ignorance is bliss.
lastly; if you don't live in fear; why do you fear my gun?
first; by saying you'd give up any liberties; spits in the face of all those who have died that others may have freedom. how dare you.
next; if the USA is the country of fear; then you must live where ignorance is bliss.
lastly; if you don't live in fear; why do you fear my gun?
i have to ask;
we know our borders are breached by hundreds daily. from mexico; cuba; and canada. we catch some but not others. we don't know who is coming into our country and we (along with other countries) have suffered attacks.
with this in mind; why would anyone want their guns taken away?
i have to ask;
we know our borders are breached by hundreds daily. from mexico; cuba; and canada. we catch some but not others. we don't know who is coming into our country and we (along with other countries) have suffered attacks.
with this in mind; why would anyone want their guns taken away?
what is your plan; what will it cost; and who will pay for it? most of all; how do you make it fail-safe? what about those already here? switzerland requires every head of household to own and know how to opperate an automatic weapon. is this how they can stay neutral while wars wage around them? is someone more likely to attack an unarmed country?
switzerland requires every head of household to own and know how to opperate an automatic weapon. is this how they can stay neutral while wars wage around them? is someone more likely to attack an unarmed country?
guest worker program. possibly amnesty for those hard working law abiding immigrants.
good thing I dont want a bad on all guns.
so your plan is to let our perfect government handle it? when it's perfect; and the police show up WHILE i'm being held at gunpoint and not 2 hours later; let me know where to turn my guns in.
first; by saying you'd give up any liberties; spits in the face of all those who have died that others may have freedom. how dare you.
Actually, if they died for my freedoms they also died for my freedom of speech, which would mean I get to say whatever I want, so don't come complaining when I say something you don't like. If I want to give up my freedoms, which is a freedom I have, I am using my freedoms... so it's definitely not spitting in the face. And finally, if you think that keeping guns easy to obtain is more important than someone's life, I think you're a sad person.
next; if the USA is the country of fear; then you must live where ignorance is bliss.
I can understand you can use a gun for protection againts wild animals. I'm not even pushing for a gun ban. I think there should be tougher laws. If you say you want a gun for protection (and not against animals) then the idea of "needing protection" stems from fear.
lastly; if you don't live in fear; why do you fear my gun?
I don't. And even if I did, there's a difference between living in fear and being afraid of something.
so your plan is to let our perfect government handle it? when it's perfect; and the police show up WHILE i'm being held at gunpoint and not 2 hours later; let me know where to turn my guns in.
yes, the governments responsibilty is to protect me.
I never asked you to turn your gun in. maybe your AK-47, but not your 9mm
Protecting my liberties is hard work, as evidenced by the number of gun banners out there. Thanks for proving my point.
Never said anything about banning guns. Your freedom is you can own weapons, and not that weapons should be easy obtainable.
And if you can't see how laws are created to limit or restrict liberties or freedoms, then you've been drinking too much of the koolaid.
Tell what's the difference? You can have any gun you want except you have to be screened, there has to be a background check etc. It should be absolutely illegal to sell guns with thorough background checks... Tell me how does that restrict or limit your freedom of owning a gun in any way?
Protection of liberties is all the argument one needs if one values liberty. If it is a silly argument to you, it says something about you.
Again, show me how it would restrict or limit your freedom? Or show me where it says you should be able to buy a gun whenever possible without proper screening?
Never said anything about banning guns. Your freedom is you can own weapons, and not that weapons should be easy obtainable.
Tell what's the difference? You can have any gun you want except you have to be screened, there has to be a background check etc. It should be absolutely illegal to sell guns with thorough background checks... Tell me how does that restrict or limit your freedom of owning a gun in any way?
Again, show me how it would restrict or limit your freedom? Or show me where it says you should be able to buy a gun whenever possible without proper screening?
i don't recall the second ammendment saying anything about screening; background checks; or anything of the sorts. only SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. i don't really object to them as i passed with flying colours. after 34 years of driving; i've never had a ticket. but the fact remains; anyone wanting a gun to comitt a crime will not buy a legal gun. they will buy one off the street. so what does this expensive screening do? also; there is no screening between private parties. illegal guns come accross the border every day. living near the border i hear the news reports daily. so other than the law abiding citizen; who do these laws effect and how does it help control crime?
i don't recall the second ammendment saying anything about screening; background checks; or anything of the sorts. only SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
infringed, okay... to take away someone's freedom or limit it... again show how does it limit or take away your freedom?
but the fact remains; anyone wanting a gun to comitt a crime will not buy a legal gun.
I guess you just like calling things "facts" and see things black and white. It's not just about crime...
And what does this screening do? It keeps mental patients from buying guns, even though they might not intend to commit a crime... etc.
infringed, okay... to take away someone's freedom or limit it... again show how does it limit or take away your freedom?
I guess you just like calling things "facts" and see things black and white. It's not just about crime...
And what does this screening do? It keeps mental patients from buying guns, even though they might not intend to commit a crime... etc.
how is it not about crime? what is it about? messing with gun owners? mental patients can buy from a private party or at gun shows. so your point is......?
how is it not about crime? what is it about? messing with gun owners? mental patients can buy from a private party or at gun shows. so your point is......?
Damn this board is addictive, I really don't have time but; it's about crime to, like crimes of passion but it can be about accidents because not everyone is responsible or smart enough to have a gun...
I think there should be a background check at shows or from a private party too, the latter might be a bit more difficult though... butthat's my point.
Damn this board is addictive, I really don't have time but; it's about crime to, like crimes of passion but it can be about accidents because not everyone is responsible or smart enough to have a gun...
I think there should be a background check at shows or from a private party too, the latter might be a bit more difficult though... butthat's my point.
i wish i had the link to the national crime whatever. they say crimes of passion are intimate crimes and usually are strangulation or stabbings.
i'll take this question.
1) i live on a ranch where rattlesnakes and mountain lions are frequent sights. i raise the most dangerous animal in north america because of it's medical value; AND; because profit hungry companies are destroying the medical values by improper care and feeding. i live 4 hours from the nearest anti-venom and 90% of the time; i'm alone. a gun here is a tool every rancher relies on and i shouldn't be punished because of someone elses abuse.
2) i was held at gunpoint. a shotgun held inches from my nose. i will never experience that kind of fear again. i can't turn on the tv without seeing people being killed. hollywood has desensitized the population with killing in games and what we watch. the only thing i really watch anymore is raymond; and the history/national geographic/science channels. once you're held at gunpoint you're never the same.
The first point I more or less understand. I come from a rural background too. Guns are a means to control feral animal populations where I come from. We don't have bears or mountain lions, but I understand why you'd want a gun handy if they're around. You kinda lost me after that though. I'm not sure what kind of animal you're raising. Is it a snake? A spider? I come from inland Australia. I'm familar with venomous animals, trust me. How is a gun going to prevent you from getting bitten? Or help you get to a hospital if you're bitten?
So being held at gunpoint has made you paranoid? I don't know. Maybe america really is a more dangerous place than australia. I still don't understand the paranoia.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
So being held at gunpoint has made you paranoid? I don't know. Maybe america really is a more dangerous place than australia. I still don't understand the paranoia.
I live in America and I've been shot at (not hit), and I don't even understand the paranoia. I live in the city and I own guns, but they're not for protection. My husband and I both enjoy target shooting, and he's a collector. We don't have a loaded weapon in the house. The guns and the ammunition are stored in separate safes, in separate rooms. We used to have one, mainly because my brother-in-law (who IS a bit paranoid) gave us a special safe for storing it as a gift and we felt like we ought to use it, but we decided it was kind of silly and got rid of it.
The overwhelming majority of people living in this country will never have a gun pulled on them. If you're not acquainted with any criminals, the odds of facing a loaded gun are quite small. People drastically overestimate their risk. The way I look at it, the odds against me facing that situation twice are astronomical, so I'm not at all worried about it.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
The first point I more or less understand. I come from a rural background too. Guns are a means to control feral animal populations where I come from. We don't have bears or mountain lions, but I understand why you'd want a gun handy if they're around. You kinda lost me after that though. I'm not sure what kind of animal you're raising. Is it a snake? A spider? I come from inland Australia. I'm familar with venomous animals, trust me. How is a gun going to prevent you from getting bitten? Or help you get to a hospital if you're bitten?
So being held at gunpoint has made you paranoid? I don't know. Maybe america really is a more dangerous place than australia. I still don't understand the paranoia.
is it paranoia or the realization that i am responsable for my own safety as told by police and our supreme court. the police are the first to say they are there for clean-up. seldom is a crime comitted in front of law enforcement. you call them after the crime and if you're lucky; they show up in a few hours.
I live in America and I've been shot at (not hit), and I don't even understand the paranoia. I live in the city and I own guns, but they're not for protection. My husband and I both enjoy target shooting, and he's a collector. We don't have a loaded weapon in the house. The guns and the ammunition are stored in separate safes, in separate rooms. We used to have one, mainly because my brother-in-law (who IS a bit paranoid) gave us a special safe for storing it as a gift and we felt like we ought to use it, but we decided it was kind of silly and got rid of it.
The overwhelming majority of people living in this country will never have a gun pulled on them. If you're not acquainted with any criminals, the odds of facing a loaded gun are quite small. People drastically overestimate their risk. The way I look at it, the odds against me facing that situation twice are astronomical, so I'm not at all worried about it.
That's what I think. Its all about percieved risk, rather than actual risk. How many of the people who carry guns around also smoke, eat lots of cholesterol, drive without seatbelts etc? I think they're just worrying about the wrong risks.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
That's some very dangerous logic right there. That's where shit like the Patriot Act comes from.
I said I was going to explain myself so here it is:
I think there's a big semantic difference between "freedoms"/"liberties" and those words in my language and in my country. The US is the only country I know that is so obsessed with its liberties, rights and what not. I've seen many people (Americans) claim they have rights and freedoms that people from other countries don't, that there are no countries that has as many freedoms as the US, which is simply not true.
I don't know if it's your media, government, history or just national pride but it seems like everyone's obsessed with their freedoms. Where I live, rarely does anyone talk about their freedoms or rights and I can assure you we are just as free you are. But it seems like, in the US, even the slightest thing causes a paranoid public out cry.
And maybe there is a real threat in the US, maybe your government is indeed trying to take away your rights and freedoms, I don't really know. But where I live my freedoms are pretty secure.
That was just part one.
I still stand by what I said. But the Patriot Act is something completely different. If someone told stood before me and said this person will die unless you give up your freedoms, I would. It has nothing to do with the government, fuck them.
US is the only country I know that is so obsessed with its liberties, rights and what not.
Hehe...yes it is.
Collin, the United States is a country founded on the concepts of freedom and liberty -- freedom from your neighbors and liberty from your state. We are still a young country, so our founding principles have not yet been completely forgotten.
So please forgive us if we seem obsessed with freedom. If being obsessed with freedom is not for you, then feel completely free not to join us. But perhaps you could be so kind to let us determine our own destiny without having to believe that our means are inextricably relative to yours.
I said I was going to explain myself so here it is:
I think there's a big semantic difference between "freedoms"/"liberties" and those words in my language and in my country. The US is the only country I know that is so obsessed with its liberties, rights and what not. I've seen many people (Americans) claim they have rights and freedoms that people from other countries don't, that there are no countries that has as many freedoms as the US, which is simply not true.
I don't know if it's your media, government, history or just national pride but it seems like everyone's obsessed with their freedoms. Where I live, rarely does anyone talk about their freedoms or rights and I can assure you we are just as free you are. But it seems like, in the US, even the slightest thing causes a paranoid public out cry.
And maybe there is a real threat in the US, maybe your government is indeed trying to take away your rights and freedoms, I don't really know. But where I live my freedoms are pretty secure.
That was just part one.
I still stand by what I said. But the Patriot Act is something completely different. If someone told stood before me and said this person will die unless you give up your freedoms, I would. It has nothing to do with the government, fuck them.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with all of it. I roll my eyes every time I hear about how this is the greatest country on earth and we have all these freedoms that don't exist anywhere else ... it's such a load of crap, and it's embarrassing to hear my fellow Americans display their ignorance regarding the rest of the world.
Now, to explain where I was coming from ... the Patriot Act (as well as much that has gone on since, such as the warrantless wiretapping) was sold to us as something we needed to keep us safe. In other words, if we didn't give up these freedoms, people were going to die. That way of thinking, combined with some good old-fashioned fear-mongering, is one way to wind up with a totalitarian government.
But on a personal level, of course ... if someone had a gun to someone's head and told me they were going to pull the trigger unless I surrendered my right to bear arms, there's no way I could stand there and watch them be killed.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Collin, the United States is a country founded on the concepts of freedom and liberty -- freedom from your neighbors and liberty from your state. We are still a young country, so our founding principles have not yet been completely forgotten.
So please forgive us if we seem obsessed with freedom. If being obsessed with freedom is not for you, then feel completely free not to join us. But perhaps you could be so kind to let us determine our own destiny without having to believe that our means are inextricably relative to yours.
Obsession is never good, imo.
And you're right from now on I will remove my tyrannical fist from off of you and let you determine your own destiny :rolleyes:
And by the way, I might be joining you after my graduation, not in obsessing though.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with all of it. I roll my eyes every time I hear about how this is the greatest country on earth and we have all these freedoms that don't exist anywhere else ... it's such a load of crap, and it's embarrassing to hear my fellow Americans display their ignorance regarding the rest of the world.
Now, to explain where I was coming from ... the Patriot Act (as well as much that has gone on since, such as the warrantless wiretapping) was sold to us as something we needed to keep us safe. In other words, if we didn't give up these freedoms, people were going to die. That way of thinking, combined with some good old-fashioned fear-mongering, is one way to wind up with a totalitarian government.
But on a personal level, of course ... if someone had a gun to someone's head and told me they were going to pull the trigger unless I surrendered my right to bear arms, there's no way I could stand there and watch them be killed.
Comments
i'll take this question.
1) i live on a ranch where rattlesnakes and mountain lions are frequent sights. i raise the most dangerous animal in north america because of it's medical value; AND; because profit hungry companies are destroying the medical values by improper care and feeding. i live 4 hours from the nearest anti-venom and 90% of the time; i'm alone. a gun here is a tool every rancher relies on and i shouldn't be punished because of someone elses abuse.
2) i was held at gunpoint. a shotgun held inches from my nose. i will never experience that kind of fear again. i can't turn on the tv without seeing people being killed. hollywood has desensitized the population with killing in games and what we watch. the only thing i really watch anymore is raymond; and the history/national geographic/science channels. once you're held at gunpoint you're never the same.
Actually, if I could save someone's life by giving away my liberties I would. But that's not what I said at all, I can't see how you equate tougher laws with being stripped of your liberties, unless you think your liberties are that nothing in life should be hard or any work.
See jeffbr, 69charger and you quoted me on the same thing the difference is, 69charger actually came up with a good argument.
In my opinion, there aren't many scenario's where a gun would save your life. Of course, I don't live in the USA, the country of fear, I guess that's a big difference.
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Please explain.
edit: Or maybe I should explain myself and clear things up...
I have to go right now... but will come back on this.
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Protecting my liberties is hard work, as evidenced by the number of gun banners out there. Thanks for proving my point. And if you can't see how laws are created to limit or restrict liberties or freedoms, then you've been drinking too much of the koolaid.
Protection of liberties is all the argument one needs if one values liberty. If it is a silly argument to you, it says something about you.
first; by saying you'd give up any liberties; spits in the face of all those who have died that others may have freedom. how dare you.
next; if the USA is the country of fear; then you must live where ignorance is bliss.
lastly; if you don't live in fear; why do you fear my gun?
Great post.
we know our borders are breached by hundreds daily. from mexico; cuba; and canada. we catch some but not others. we don't know who is coming into our country and we (along with other countries) have suffered attacks.
with this in mind; why would anyone want their guns taken away?
how about we secure the border
what is your plan; what will it cost; and who will pay for it? most of all; how do you make it fail-safe? what about those already here? switzerland requires every head of household to own and know how to opperate an automatic weapon. is this how they can stay neutral while wars wage around them? is someone more likely to attack an unarmed country?
a big fence and military on the border
I'm sure we can find ways to cut costs.
taxpayers
probably impossible. is anything fail safe?
guest worker program. possibly amnesty for those hard working law abiding immigrants.
good thing I dont want a bad on all guns.
so your plan is to let our perfect government handle it? when it's perfect; and the police show up WHILE i'm being held at gunpoint and not 2 hours later; let me know where to turn my guns in.
Actually, if they died for my freedoms they also died for my freedom of speech, which would mean I get to say whatever I want, so don't come complaining when I say something you don't like. If I want to give up my freedoms, which is a freedom I have, I am using my freedoms... so it's definitely not spitting in the face. And finally, if you think that keeping guns easy to obtain is more important than someone's life, I think you're a sad person.
I can understand you can use a gun for protection againts wild animals. I'm not even pushing for a gun ban. I think there should be tougher laws. If you say you want a gun for protection (and not against animals) then the idea of "needing protection" stems from fear.
I don't. And even if I did, there's a difference between living in fear and being afraid of something.
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yes, the governments responsibilty is to protect me.
I never asked you to turn your gun in. maybe your AK-47, but not your 9mm
Never said anything about banning guns. Your freedom is you can own weapons, and not that weapons should be easy obtainable.
Tell what's the difference? You can have any gun you want except you have to be screened, there has to be a background check etc. It should be absolutely illegal to sell guns with thorough background checks... Tell me how does that restrict or limit your freedom of owning a gun in any way?
Again, show me how it would restrict or limit your freedom? Or show me where it says you should be able to buy a gun whenever possible without proper screening?
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i don't recall the second ammendment saying anything about screening; background checks; or anything of the sorts. only SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. i don't really object to them as i passed with flying colours. after 34 years of driving; i've never had a ticket. but the fact remains; anyone wanting a gun to comitt a crime will not buy a legal gun. they will buy one off the street. so what does this expensive screening do? also; there is no screening between private parties. illegal guns come accross the border every day. living near the border i hear the news reports daily. so other than the law abiding citizen; who do these laws effect and how does it help control crime?
infringed, okay... to take away someone's freedom or limit it... again show how does it limit or take away your freedom?
I guess you just like calling things "facts" and see things black and white. It's not just about crime...
And what does this screening do? It keeps mental patients from buying guns, even though they might not intend to commit a crime... etc.
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how is it not about crime? what is it about? messing with gun owners? mental patients can buy from a private party or at gun shows. so your point is......?
Damn this board is addictive, I really don't have time but; it's about crime to, like crimes of passion but it can be about accidents because not everyone is responsible or smart enough to have a gun...
I think there should be a background check at shows or from a private party too, the latter might be a bit more difficult though... butthat's my point.
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i wish i had the link to the national crime whatever. they say crimes of passion are intimate crimes and usually are strangulation or stabbings.
Fair enough.
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The first point I more or less understand. I come from a rural background too. Guns are a means to control feral animal populations where I come from. We don't have bears or mountain lions, but I understand why you'd want a gun handy if they're around. You kinda lost me after that though. I'm not sure what kind of animal you're raising. Is it a snake? A spider? I come from inland Australia. I'm familar with venomous animals, trust me. How is a gun going to prevent you from getting bitten? Or help you get to a hospital if you're bitten?
So being held at gunpoint has made you paranoid? I don't know. Maybe america really is a more dangerous place than australia. I still don't understand the paranoia.
-C Addison
The overwhelming majority of people living in this country will never have a gun pulled on them. If you're not acquainted with any criminals, the odds of facing a loaded gun are quite small. People drastically overestimate their risk. The way I look at it, the odds against me facing that situation twice are astronomical, so I'm not at all worried about it.
is it paranoia or the realization that i am responsable for my own safety as told by police and our supreme court. the police are the first to say they are there for clean-up. seldom is a crime comitted in front of law enforcement. you call them after the crime and if you're lucky; they show up in a few hours.
That's what I think. Its all about percieved risk, rather than actual risk. How many of the people who carry guns around also smoke, eat lots of cholesterol, drive without seatbelts etc? I think they're just worrying about the wrong risks.
-C Addison
I said I was going to explain myself so here it is:
I think there's a big semantic difference between "freedoms"/"liberties" and those words in my language and in my country. The US is the only country I know that is so obsessed with its liberties, rights and what not. I've seen many people (Americans) claim they have rights and freedoms that people from other countries don't, that there are no countries that has as many freedoms as the US, which is simply not true.
I don't know if it's your media, government, history or just national pride but it seems like everyone's obsessed with their freedoms. Where I live, rarely does anyone talk about their freedoms or rights and I can assure you we are just as free you are. But it seems like, in the US, even the slightest thing causes a paranoid public out cry.
And maybe there is a real threat in the US, maybe your government is indeed trying to take away your rights and freedoms, I don't really know. But where I live my freedoms are pretty secure.
That was just part one.
I still stand by what I said. But the Patriot Act is something completely different. If someone told stood before me and said this person will die unless you give up your freedoms, I would. It has nothing to do with the government, fuck them.
naděje umírá poslední
Hehe...yes it is.
Collin, the United States is a country founded on the concepts of freedom and liberty -- freedom from your neighbors and liberty from your state. We are still a young country, so our founding principles have not yet been completely forgotten.
So please forgive us if we seem obsessed with freedom. If being obsessed with freedom is not for you, then feel completely free not to join us. But perhaps you could be so kind to let us determine our own destiny without having to believe that our means are inextricably relative to yours.
Now, to explain where I was coming from ... the Patriot Act (as well as much that has gone on since, such as the warrantless wiretapping) was sold to us as something we needed to keep us safe. In other words, if we didn't give up these freedoms, people were going to die. That way of thinking, combined with some good old-fashioned fear-mongering, is one way to wind up with a totalitarian government.
But on a personal level, of course ... if someone had a gun to someone's head and told me they were going to pull the trigger unless I surrendered my right to bear arms, there's no way I could stand there and watch them be killed.
Obsession is never good, imo.
And you're right from now on I will remove my tyrannical fist from off of you and let you determine your own destiny :rolleyes:
And by the way, I might be joining you after my graduation, not in obsessing though.
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Nice, I agree with you.
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