Would you prefer we lose the war in Iraq?

perlmanj

The entire question has no merrit actually. How can we lose a War that we should not be in in the first place? This is a conflict that We started. We became an occupying force in Iraq. Just think how we would respond in another time and place if say Germany would have attacked and bombed us and then moved 150,000 soldiers into some of our key cities. It is Not our War!! We should get out of there now before any more of our people have to die.

Byrnzie

WindNoSail wrote:

Thanks for responding to Brynzie, you got there first and got it right. I sometimes loose my energy to respond to these concepts, that are so far out there that you are pretty sure reason has left the building with Elvis.

Christian haters are weird people

Firstly, my name isn't Brynzie. Secondly, I am not a Christian hater. Thirdly, I don't regard George Bush or Tony Blair as Christians but the opposite of what a Christian should be. And lastly, do you honestly believe that what occured on 9/11 occured out of a vacuum, and that there was no history of U.S oppression in the middle East behind it? Have you ever heard of a place called Palestine, for example?

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

Maybe I have a short memory, but please refresh me to the last time a group of Christian zealots hijacked four planes and flew them into a few of the most iconic buildings in the world.

I can't refresh your memory to the above, no. But I can refresh your memory to a group of Christian zealots dropping two atom bombs on Japan, decimating Vietnam, killing hundreds of thousands of central Americans in the 1980's, unconditionally supporting the illegal terrorist activities of the Israeli government, killing over 200,000 Iraqi's in the first Gulf war, killing up to 9000 in Panama in 1989, bombing a medical factory in Sudan in 1998 which resulted in the eventual deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, bombing Afghanistan and killing countless thousands, invading Iraq illegally resulting in the deaths of an estimated 100,000 - 700,000 civilians, e.t.c, e.t.c.

Whoops! Sorry! I forgot that history began on September 11th 2001. My sincerest apologies!

NCfan wrote:

And oh yeah, I also don't recall a group of radical Christians mobilzing, uniting and arming themselves into worldwide organizations whose mission it is to kill all who oppose their call to go back to the days before Martin Luther and embrace the Inquisition.

So you've never heard of the Bush Administration then?

NCfan wrote:

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm just saying that of course their are militant, radical Christians. But, they haven't manifested themselves like radical Islamists have.

Really?

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

Ultimately I feel sadness and pitty for people confused as you. So I guess what you are trying to say is that America is in Iraq becuase God told Bush to go there. Did I get that right, do you honestly believe that?

A proper "yes" or "no" is in order.

A proper "yes" or "no" is in order is it? Really? Things are that simple are they?
In answer to your question, no, America isn't in Iraq because God told Bush to go there. America is in Iraq because of the Bush Administrations desire to secure the natural resources of the region and establish another power base in the Middle East in light of the predictions of instability in Saudi Arabia. Bush and his idiot thug cohorts justify this illegal act of terrorism on a sovereign nation by deluding themselves into believing they have God on their side.

Abuskedti

Byrnzie wrote:

A proper "yes" or "no" is in order is it? Really? Things are that simple are they?
In answer to your question, no, America isn't in Iraq because God told Bush to go there. America is in Iraq because of the Bush Administrations desire to secure the natural resources of the region and establish another power base in the region in light of the predictions of instability in Saudi Arabia. Bush and his idiot thug cohorts justify this illegal act of terrorism on a sovereign nation by deluding themselves into believing they have God on their side.

sounds about right to me

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

I would add however, that our bombs are killing people not associated with terrorists. But I think this is at a minimal, I'm saying we aren't doing it on purpose - and to not take action because we might inflict these casualties is not worth the price of inaction. It's the same case if Darfur. There is a genocide going on there, but if we sent the military in - innocent people are bound to get killed. But does that mean we shouldn't try to save that country?

The Lancet report estimates a minimum 100,000 civilian casualties in Iraq, and a number possibly as high as 700,000. You think that "..this is at a minimal" do you? Oh well, whatever gets you through the day my friend.

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

I can't refresh your memory to the above, no. But I can refresh your memory to a group of Christian zealots dropping two atom bombs on Japan, decimating Vietnam, killing hundreds of thousands of central Americans in the 1980's, unconditioanlly supporting the illegal terrorist activities of the Israeli government, killing over 200,000 Iraqi's in the first Gulf war, killing up to 9000 in Panama in 1989, bombing a medical factory in Sudan in 1998 which resulted in the eventual deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, bombing Afghanistan and killing countless thousands, invading Iraq illegally resulting in the deaths of an estimates 100,000 - 700,000 civilians, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Whoops! Sorry! I forgot that history began on September 11th 2001. My sincerest apologies!



So you've never heard of the Bush Administration then?



Really?

I would say you and I have a completely different view and understanding of life, history and humans in general.

I'm sure things make perfect sense to you according to your beliefs, and they make sense to me according to my beliefs.

There is an ideological divide here, and we are going to interpret the same events in completely different ways.

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

The Lancet report estimates a minimum 100,000 civilian casualties in Iraq, and a number possibly as high as 700,000. You think that "..this is at a minimal" do you? Oh well, whatever gets you through the day my friend.

I guess you just forgot to leave out how many of those deaths were caused directly by the U.S.

The insurgents and terrorists have killed exponentially more cilvilians than the Americans have. After all, they intentionally target them: men, women and children. That is something the U.S. would never do, but I guess it's all the same in your view of the world.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

I guess you just forgot to leave out how many of those deaths were caused directly by the U.S.

The insurgents and terrorists have killed exponentially more cilvilians than the Americans have. After all, they intentionally target them: men, women and children. That is something the U.S. would never do, but I guess it's all the same in your view of the world.

First of all, I seriously doubt the "insurgents have killed half of the civilians that the Americans have admitted to killing. Though everyone the Americans kill is innocent with the exception of Saddam - and we didn't even kill him.

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

I would say you and I have a completely different view and understanding of life, history and humans in general.

I'm sure things make perfect sense to you according to your beliefs, and they make sense to me according to my beliefs.

There is an ideological divide here, and we are going to interpret the same events in completely different ways.

I doubt that our beliefs are really so different. I just believe that you have been raised in a country in which you have been taught from an early age to pledge allegiance to the flag, and to believe that the U.S can do no wrong. I personally believe that one should always take a broader view of things, especially as they pertain to such events as war. I.e, if the U.S were invaded by an occupying army in an illegal war of aggression which sought to seize it's natural resources, and proceeded to decimate it's citizens, would you sit back and be content at this? Or would you take up arms against the invader? And if you did take up arms against the invader, would you then be a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?

And as far as confusing 9/11 with Iraq...don't forget that this had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq, or with the people of Afghanistan for that matter.

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

I guess you just forgot to leave out how many of those deaths were caused directly by the U.S. The insurgents and terrorists have killed exponentially more cilvilians than the Americans have. After all, they intentionally target them: men, women and children. That is something the U.S. would never do, but I guess it's all the same in your view of the world.

In answer to the above, I urge you to read this...

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html

Oh, and regarding your quote above and the area that I've highlighted...Why are you making shit up? You really should check the facts before spouting such rubbish. Don't believe everything you are told by the media in your country. This is something that you should have learnt at an early age.

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

I guess you just forgot to leave out how many of those deaths were caused directly by the U.S.

The insurgents and terrorists have killed exponentially more cilvilians than the Americans have. After all, they intentionally target them: men, women and children. That is something the U.S. would never do, but I guess it's all the same in your view of the world.

Have you heard of the massacre at Haditha? Obviously your view of the world permits you to omit certain facts when pushing forth your arguments.

OuttaControl

Byrnzie wrote:

In answer to the above, I urge you to read this...

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html

Wow, that website doesn't look like it has an agenda at all....

Byrnzie

OuttaControl wrote:

Wow, that website doesn't look like it has an agenda at all....

As opposed to what other website? Your comment is a tad meaningless. Yes, ZNet is a website in which some of the worlds leading intellectuals discuss the issues of the day without following the party line and sucking up to any power interest, media or otherwise. So yeah, even truth has an agenda!

pushmepullme

This has probably already been said, but there are no winners in the war. Apart from the oil companys and miliary contractors.

Heineken Helen

pushmepullme wrote:

This has probably already been said, but there are no winners in the war. Apart from the oil companys and miliary contractors.

Yes it has but apparently that's not a legitimate argument :rolleyes:

the thread starter wanted a yes/no answer to a fucking ridiculous question.

pushmepullme

I cannot see any winners at the moment. Iraq is such a fucking mess. All this democracy bollocks is just bollocks. If Iraq is ever a democracy I'll lick my own balls.

Heineken Helen

pushmepullme wrote:

I cannot see any winners at the moment. Iraq is such a fucking mess. All this democracy bollocks is just bollocks. If Iraq is ever a democracy I'll lick my own balls.

Lol, well that would be interesting

But I agree... how is it ever gonna be a democracy? I mean WWII was HOW many years ago and the US still has military bases all over Europe

pushmepullme

Heineken Helen wrote:

Lol, well that would be interesting

But I agree... how is it ever gonna be a democracy? I mean WWII was HOW many years ago and the US still has military bases all over Europe

And painful, I'll have to lose my beer belly to reach

But yeh, the only way now, realistically, that it can be a democracy, is either the country splits apart ala Yugoslavia, and the Shi'tes get their land, the sunni's get theirs, or the U.S leave and the country goes into civil war (which I think its in already).

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

I doubt that our beliefs are really so different. I just believe that you have been raised in a country in which you have been taught from an early age to pledge allegiance to the flag, and to believe that the U.S can do no wrong. I personally believe that one should always take a broader view of things, especially as they pertain to such events as war. I.e, if the U.S were invaded by an occupying army in an illegal war of aggression which sought to seize it's natural resources, and proceeded to decimate it's citizens, would you sit back and be content at this? Or would you take up arms against the invader? And if you did take up arms against the invader, would you then be a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?

And as far as confusing 9/11 with Iraq...don't forget that this had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq, or with the people of Afghanistan for that matter.

Oh there is no doubt that our beliefs are totally different. I have been raised in a country that has tought me that it can do no wrong, no more than you and others have been raised in a country that has taught you to envy and spite the U.S., just for the sake of enjoying the top dog stumbe every now and then.

What an uneducated statement from you given the political/social turmoil the U.S. has experienced just in the last 50 years.

We have impeached two presidents, suffered through watergate, Vietnam, the civil rights movement and other cultural revolutions. I have no problem, as most Americans do not accepting responsibility for the mistakes and problems my country has created - which are many, MANY.

I would say America is the most self-critical country on the planet, much to the contrary of what you think.

My advice to you is to try and step away from your sterotypes. You have completely miss-judged me, as I can only assume you do of every American. I would also suggest that you check where you get your facts from. That web site is a joke.

In short, open your eyes a bit!