Would you prefer we lose the war in Iraq?

The Illinoisemakers

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

I'm guessing a lot of moderate Republicans feel pretty stupid driving around with a "Bush/Cheney 2004" sticker on their cars these days...

Not really seeing as to how they won that election, and to be honest I haven't seen anyone with those stickers on their cars, at least in western Washington, maybe it's different in your area.

Milhouse VanHouten

The Illinoisemakers wrote:

Not really seeing as to how they won that election, and to be honest I haven't seen anyone with those stickers on their cars, at least in western Washington, maybe it's different in your area.

I still see them constantly, and I know quite a few people who voted for him that now regret it greatly.

SundaySilence

TexJam wrote:

Well...I have a deal for you. Explain to me why Iraq isn't better off today compared to pre-Saddam. I realize innocents have died...and that is tragic. And also explain how we lost and should throw up the white flag.

Citizens are being killed at faster rate than under Saddam. The previously secular government is now more theocratic and with ties to Iran.

soulsinging

TexJam wrote:

No...typical libs avoid answering the questions. They change the subject. If someone gives me a reasonable "answer" whether they are lib or con, I will GET it.

what's the question? ill give it a shot.

thankyougrandma

soulsinging wrote:

what's the question? ill give it a shot.

"Explain to me why Iraq isn't better off today compared to pre-Saddam. I realize innocents have died...and that is tragic. And also explain how we lost and should throw up the white flag."

but it's been answered on numerous post, and he's gone already...

BrinkofForever

TexJam wrote:

Ignorance is bliss eh? The problem with the "Hate America/Blame America" front is that they don't need to base anything on fact. If you think America is corrupt, and you are correct to a point, please look at the rest of the world and give me a better country to live in.
Hey, questioning the government is our given right. But please, lets go beyond the "America is evil" rhetoric because it makes you look ignorant and if you are a PJ fan, that is highly doubtful.

I don't hate America or blame America. What I do hate is bad ADMINISTRATION policy. I guess you didn't grasp that in my comment..this administration DOES NOT represent Americans in general. They are looking out for themselves and their own special interests. Why would you assume that I hate America? I was born in this country. I love this country. I'm proud of all the positive things that America has done for the world, but I'm ashamed and disgusted at the ongoing antics of this administration. Spying, fearmongering, illegal wars, bullying, uncontrolled spending..shall I continue???... Where are they leading us? What is America in the eyes of the world? Don't you get it? Stop trying to spin something unspinnable.
And, no..I don't get the last part about being a PJ fan... what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

thankyougrandma

Abuse worse than under Saddam, says Iraqi leader
Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1651789,00.html

The height of humiliation
Threatened, abused, raped and tortured: such is the fate of untold numbers of Iraqi women amid the barbarous practices of the occupation. Haifa Zangana* examines the plight of Iraq's female security detainees
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/800/focus.htm

Iraqis’ Human Rights Are Still In Peril
by Medea Benjamin and Andrea Buffa
December 10, recognized internationally as human rights day, is an opportune moment to look at human rights in Iraq.

Recent attention has been focused on the trial of Saddam Hussein, whose rule was infamous for its violations of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which calls for freedom from unlawful deprivation of life, torture, disappearance, and arbitrary detention. The problem is that Iraqis are still not free from these grave violations of their human rights. While in the past such abuses were carried out in Iraq by Saddam Hussein’s regime, they are now inflicted on Iraqis by three different sources: the insurgents, the Iraqi security forces, and the US military.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1210-20.htm


http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iraq
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-index-eng

The Illinoisemakers

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

I still see them constantly, and I know quite a few people who voted for him that now regret it greatly.

Is your area considered pretty conservative in general? For me it's not hard to figure why I see so many Kerry/Edwards stickers. Seattle is blue through and through.

I'm also curious if you know, how are the people you know who are disillusioned with Bush going to vote in the coming elections? Are they so fed up that they are changing parties?

Ahnimus

The Illinoisemakers wrote:

Is your area considered pretty conservative in general? For me it's not hard to figure why I see so many Kerry/Edwards stickers. Seattle is blue through and through.

I'm also curious if you know, how are the people you know who are disillusioned with Bush going to vote in the coming elections? Are they so fed up that they are changing parties?

John Kerry is Bush's cousin.

The Illinoisemakers

Ahnimus wrote:

John Kerry is Bush's cousin.

Huh?

Ahnimus

The Illinoisemakers wrote:

Huh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/04/politics/main604163.shtml

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4286105/

Ahnimus

John Kerry is also a Skull & Bones member. You virtually have no choice. The election is just a game.

"(CBS) As opposite as George Bush and John Kerry may seem to be, they do share a common secret - one they've shared for decades, and one they will not share with the electorate.

The secret: details of their membership in Skull and Bones, the elite Yale University society whose members include some of the most powerful men of the 20th century. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml

Ahnimus

Ahnimus wrote:

John Kerry is also a Skull & Bones member. You virtually have no choice. The election is just a game.

"(CBS) As opposite as George Bush and John Kerry may seem to be, they do share a common secret - one they've shared for decades, and one they will not share with the electorate.

The secret: details of their membership in Skull and Bones, the elite Yale University society whose members include some of the most powerful men of the 20th century. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml

Even better, here is a video of John Kerry admitting it. I can't view it here at work, no flash installed and no admin privledges, so let me know if it's genuine.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/010104kerryadmits.html

catefrances

WindNoSail wrote:

Interesting....the biggest difference between then and now is subtle in most people's minds, but I think it could bet the collapse of the Soviet Union. There were always two camps - democrats and communists/totalitarianism. W/o fear of Soviet Agression, its like America has become the problem in many peoples minds, yet we have always been the "beacon of freedom and democracy" in the past. Did we (US) change or did the world change?

I have to disagree on the 'hate us for our freedoms' point, logically they Do hate our freedoms because if you noticed their religious laws are based on taking away freedoms. We (not just the US) are the biggest threat to the concepts the fanaticals hold. I have talked to people who live in Saudi for example, have married into Muslim families, had their kids kidnapped, etc. I am not saying this is true of all Muslim's, but we have to aknowledge that if they hate us, it is for our freedoms. Not saying that is the only reason - but to dismiss it (because GW said it?) seems incorrect.

oh i didn't dismiss it cause king george said it. i dismissed it cause it sounded fucking ridiculous. and more so coming out of his mouth. he totally dismissed the US's imperialist agenda. he made absolutely no correlation between terrorist attacks against the US and terrorists attacks the US has been a part of throughout history. maybe like a lot of americans he just doesn't know. state sanctioned terrorism is stll terrorism. the united states is not a peaceful nation.

WindNoSail wrote:

I am not comfortable because I don't really know everything that goes on in the name of US (or European) interests. There are many resources assigned solely to intellegence and policy that know more about what really goes on in the world than I - I wish it wasn't this way, but how else can it be?

then you have to find out. you have to know what your government has been doing in your name. you have to make your government accountable. we all do. democracy is about the people. what has your government done for you lately besides make you a terrorist target?

WindNoSail wrote:

If the US got out of the business of war, intellegence, world policy, etc - tell me what would happen? Sure there would be some positive effects, but I am sure there would be negative effects as well.

see here's the problem. the united states are so ingrained in the fabric of the world that the changes that occur if they decided to mind their own god damn business could surely be construed as negative. a country's foreign policy should not make the rest of the world beholden to it. a country's foreign policy should not be an economic policy in disguise. a foreign policy is a policy that should spell out how that country deals with the rest of the world. not how it can manipulate the rest of the world in order to be the dominant power. the united states has the power to do so much good in tandem with the rest of the world but they don't want to. they say they do, but their actions say otherwise. they see as a threat any country that tries to adopt a policy contrary to capitalism. they equate democracy with the free market and are so blinded that they either don't see the damage they are doing or they just don't give a shit. that is my problem with the united states.

the business of war
say that three times. does it sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me?
if the united states got out of the 'business of war', their economy would almost likely collapse. but on the plus side we could perhaps move closer to real peace and find some real alternatives for the problems that plague our world.

Heineken Helen

don't gimme no wrote:

If by "they" you mean the government then absolutely not. Our government despises the UN. But if by "they" you mean the American people then you bet your ass we wish we would turn to them now. Doesn't the UN have a responsibility to stop what the U.S. is doing in Iraq? It seems to me like they would.

The UN only works if its main countries MAKE it work and don't use it for personal gain - the US has been using it for that reason since it began... and then saw that it had an opportunity to BECOME the UN. The US government and some of their people go on about how the UN is a failure - well why is that? Cos its bigger countries, mainly the US, have failed it and have failed all the countries who needed and depended on the UN

Heineken Helen

TexJam wrote:

The UN is the most corrupt and useless organization on Earth. Cmon!

I was gonna reply to this and then I read the rest of your posts :rolleyes:

TexJam

chiefojibwa wrote:

hey buddy, i got some freedom fries for you. with a nice special brown sauce i whipped up....

hehe...i take no responsibility for the freedom fries fiasco :-)

TexJam

thankyougrandma wrote:

Abuse worse than under Saddam, says Iraqi leader
Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1651789,00.html

The height of humiliation
Threatened, abused, raped and tortured: such is the fate of untold numbers of Iraqi women amid the barbarous practices of the occupation. Haifa Zangana* examines the plight of Iraq's female security detainees
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/800/focus.htm

Iraqis’ Human Rights Are Still In Peril
by Medea Benjamin and Andrea Buffa
December 10, recognized internationally as human rights day, is an opportune moment to look at human rights in Iraq.

Recent attention has been focused on the trial of Saddam Hussein, whose rule was infamous for its violations of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which calls for freedom from unlawful deprivation of life, torture, disappearance, and arbitrary detention. The problem is that Iraqis are still not free from these grave violations of their human rights. While in the past such abuses were carried out in Iraq by Saddam Hussein’s regime, they are now inflicted on Iraqis by three different sources: the insurgents, the Iraqi security forces, and the US military.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1210-20.htm


http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iraq
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-index-eng

I would consider the source.

soulsinging

The Illinoisemakers wrote:

Is your area considered pretty conservative in general? For me it's not hard to figure why I see so many Kerry/Edwards stickers. Seattle is blue through and through.

I'm also curious if you know, how are the people you know who are disillusioned with Bush going to vote in the coming elections? Are they so fed up that they are changing parties?

the most diehard republican i know is pretty fed up. this was a man who worships reagan and used to foam at the mouth when i talked about clinton or any liberal politics. i spoke with him a few weeks back and he was disgusted. he said he feels like he's been sold out and that bush is sending this country down the tubes. we didnt talk about upcoming elections, but i got the impression right now he's hoping like hell the republicans will nominate a REAL candidate this election so he can feel good voting for them. the point is not that republicans want to jump ship or change parties, it's that bush does not represent most mainstream republicans any more than he represents the democrats or the green party.

mookie blaylock 10

Heineken Helen wrote:

I was gonna reply to this and then I read the rest of your posts :rolleyes:

i haven't been able to get to sleep yet HH, so i came lingering around again. thanks for the laugh on this one helen ...so true