Joe Horn and Texas Law

Derrick

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071127/ap_on_re_us/burglary_shooting;_ylt=AtXdXPV7Uv0Wk.Cdvbgpo8wDW7oF
UPDATE: http://wjz.com/national/joe.horn.shoots.2.570499.html <-- another article, more critical of Joe Horn imo.

you can find the full transcript on the internet. In my opinion, it was clear premediated murder, but Texas law deems it ok because the victims were in the act of robbery.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/SB00378I.htm

In the transcript, he even makes a comment that one of the guys was trying to run away but he shot him anyways. I mean, to me that's murder, but reading the laws, it's perfectly fine. I don't have any sympathy for the victims, but man, this dude sure was intent on shooting people.

soulsinging

thanks for reminding me why i don't want to live in texas.

Kel Varnsen

Ah good old vigilantism. So basically if this guy goes free it means you can drive around Texas with a gun looking for people committing crimes and then shoot them dead?

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

From the article he said they went into his property and one lunged at him. If thats true he had every right to kill them. He also had a right to try to stop the robbery.

whats the problem? give the guy a medal and send him on his way.

heh. i'm about to move to Houston. Good to know my shit will be in safe hands, and since i dont plan on robbing anyone, I dont have to worry about getting shot. Now where did i put my application to carry a concealed weapon?

soulsinging

MrSmith wrote:

Good to know my shit will be in safe hands, and since i dont plan on robbing anyone, I dont have to worry about getting shot.

unless, of course, your neighbor THINKS you might be robbing someone or something and decides to take you out just in case.

onelongsong

Derrick wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071127/ap_on_re_us/burglary_shooting;_ylt=AtXdXPV7Uv0Wk.Cdvbgpo8wDW7oF

you can find the full transcript on the internet. In my opinion, it was clear premediated murder, but Texas law deems it ok because the victims were in the act of robbery.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/SB00378I.htm

In the transcript, he even makes a comment that one of the guys was trying to run away but he shot him anyways. I mean, to me that's murder, but reading the laws, it's perfectly fine. I don't have any sympathy for the victims, but man, this dude sure was intent on shooting people.

personally; i have no sympathy for criminals. i reported my own son for committing a crime and he's in prison now. if horn was within the law; good for him. he struck a blow for the honest working joe. criminals need to be sent a message that we won't tolerate crime. i know the bleeding hearts will cry about him (horn) taking a life; but he only removed parasites that lived off others leaving them in fear in their own home, and financially crippled. crooks don't bother with dvd players; they take jewelry and things that although hold monitary value; hold memories. be it her grandmothers wedding ring or the first diamond neckless he gave his wife on their first anniversary.
an old friend from NYC told me they look away when they see a crime. here; we stop the crime.

Jeanie

Isn't the law in each state enacted by that state based on the will of the people?

I'm not saying it's right in my opinion but obviously if Texans have passed these laws and continue to allow them to exist then wouldn't that tend to indicate that they see this differently to the rest of us?

And not that I condone what this guy did, BUT if you are a burglar and you live in a state where the law says that people can carry guns and protect property with said gun, then surely you'd know that and have the sense to think about a career change? Or at the very least if you were gonna continue breaking the law make sure you were armed to protect yourself?

onelongsong

MrSmith wrote:

From the article he said they went into his property and one lunged at him. If thats true he had every right to kill them. He also had a right to try to stop the robbery.

whats the problem? give the guy a medal and send him on his way.

heh. i'm about to move to Houston. Good to know my shit will be in safe hands, and since i dont plan on robbing anyone, I dont have to worry about getting shot. Now where did i put my application to carry a concealed weapon?

you're right. and you have the right attitude about it. you're not a criminal so it has nothing to do with you. millions of texans live normal lives but with one exception: if they're the victim of a crime, they know that help may be standing next to them; instead of a 30 minute ride away.

even if you'll never carry a gun; get that conceald weapons permit. the more permits issued; the more a criminal will think twice. it's a crime deterrant that works!
peace

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

personally; i have no sympathy for criminals. i reported my own son for committing a crime and he's in prison now. if horn was within the law; good for him. he struck a blow for the honest working joe. criminals need to be sent a message that we won't tolerate crime. i know the bleeding hearts will cry about him (horn) taking a life; but he only removed parasites that lived off others leaving them in fear in their own home, and financially crippled. crooks don't bother with dvd players; they take jewelry and things that although hold monitary value; hold memories. be it her grandmothers wedding ring or the first diamond neckless he gave his wife on their first anniversary.
an old friend from NYC told me they look away when they see a crime. here; we stop the crime.

didn't you brag about committing tax fraud around here? last i checked that was a crime.

ask anyone who's had their place broken into. petty thieves get dvd's, stereos, and the like. they're almost totally untraceable and are easily converted to cash.

onelongsong

soulsinging wrote:

didn't you brag about committing tax fraud around here? last i checked that was a crime.

ask anyone who's had their place broken into. petty thieves get dvd's, stereos, and the like. they're almost totally untraceable and are easily converted to cash.

i see you didn't read my response to cosmo in the other thread. the IRS law says you have to pay tax on income. if you don't draw any income; you don't have to file. ask your tax law teacher.

my dad's house was broken into and close to $50K in jewelry and gold taken. NOTHING ELSE; they didn't touch his gun because it was traceable. jewelry and gold are almost untraceable. dvds and stereos have serial numbers that can be traced back to the stores that sold them. if the person sent in the warranty; it can be traced to the owner himself. gold can be easily melted down.

do you even think before posting something?

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

i see you didn't read my response to cosmo in the other thread. the IRS law says you have to pay tax on income. if you don't draw any income; you don't have to file. ask your tax law teacher.

my dad's house was broken into and close to $50K in jewelry and gold taken. NOTHING ELSE; they didn't touch his gun because it was traceable. jewelry and gold are almost untraceable. dvds and stereos have serial numbers that can be traced back to the stores that sold them. if the person sent in the warranty; it can be traced to the owner himself. gold can be easily melted down.

do you even think before posting something?

yes, but shifting your income through various business to make your income seem like business expenses and charities sounds a lot like fraud to me.

your dad again. what common criminal has the capacity to melt gold down? what would they do with it once that happened? cmon, let's be real... that shit goes right to the pawn shop. unless your dad was victimized by some very professional criminals, in which case he was undoubtedly targeted becos he was the only fool on the block to convert all his cash to valuable jewels. nobody in the history of theft has ever been caught by tracking dvd serial numbers. first of all, what owners knows these or has them memorized? second, what pawn shop owner or local buyer is going to check them? third, when have you ever seen an APB on sony xm stereo serial number 332432... if seen, please report stolen? come on. even IF a stolen dvd is found in some dude's house, how is finding the store that sold it doing anyone any good?

onelongsong

Jeanie wrote:

Isn't the law in each state enacted by that state based on the will of the people?

I'm not saying it's right in my opinion but obviously if Texans have passed these laws and continue to allow them to exist then wouldn't that tend to indicate that they see this differently to the rest of us?

And not that I condone what this guy did, BUT if you are a burglar and you live in a state where the law says that people can carry guns and protect property with said gun, then surely you'd know that and have the sense to think about a career change? Or at the very least if you were gonna continue breaking the law make sure you were armed to protect yourself?

that says it love. when a fireman chooses his career; he's aware of the dangers and accepts them. same with police; and almost any career. you have to accept the dangers.

texans did want the law. the police accept that they cannot be there when the crime is in progress and the legislators accept the peoples right to protect life; property; and liberty.

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

that says it love. when a fireman chooses his career; he's aware of the dangers and accepts them. same with police; and almost any career. you have to accept the dangers.

texans did want the law. the police accept that they cannot be there when the crime is in progress and the legislators accept the peoples right to protect life; property; and liberty.

Well I think the whole thing is a pretty sad business but as far as I can see if he's acted within the law as it stands where he is and the burglars were acting outside the law then it's awful that it's happened but who am I to judge? It's hard to say because we don't have guns here.

onelongsong

soulsinging wrote:

yes, but shifting your income through various business to make your income seem like business expenses and charities sounds a lot like fraud to me.

your dad again. what common criminal has the capacity to melt gold down? what would they do with it once that happened? cmon, let's be real... that shit goes right to the pawn shop. unless your dad was victimized by some very professional criminals, in which case he was undoubtedly targeted becos he was the only fool on the block to convert all his cash to valuable jewels. nobody in the history of theft has ever been caught by tracking dvd serial numbers. first of all, what owners knows these or has them memorized? second, what pawn shop owner or local buyer is going to check them? third, when have you ever seen an APB on sony xm stereo serial number 332432... if seen, please report stolen? come on. even IF a stolen dvd is found in some dude's house, how is finding the store that sold it doing anyone any good?

then you don't know much about law. check into trusts.

i melt down gold. anyone with a torch can melt down gold. you don't go to a pawn shop because the jewelry can be identified. there's always a picture of that item. if dad gives mum a necklass; you can bet there's a picture of her wearing it. and if my dad converted all his assetts to gold; they would have taken $13 million in gold. what was stolen was gifts to my mum or to him.

prospecting is still quite popular and all you have to do is call a prospecting shop to find out where to sell gold. it's easy to melt a necklass down into droplets and say you found it in a stream. in big cities you fence the jewelry. only idiots use pawn shops. when you pawn something; the pawn shop is REQUIRED to check with the police to see if it's stolen. why not take a used dvd player to a pawn shop and see what they'll give you. $10 to $20 usd. there's no money in stealing them. $20.00 is not worth the risk of getting shot. #20.00 may buy you lunch but you'll have to rob another house for dinner.
use common sense. any cop will tell you that theives go directly to the master bedroom. that's where the money is. most theives are in and out in 3 minutes. unless there's a murder.

my dad was targeted because he lives in an area of million dollar houses. several houses in his neighbourhood were targeted.

onelongsong

Jeanie wrote:

Well I think the whole thing is a pretty sad business but as far as I can see if he's acted within the law as it stands where he is and the burglars were acting outside the law then it's awful that it's happened but who am I to judge? It's hard to say because we don't have guns here.

he took 2 criminals off the street and we don't have to pay to support them in jail. in my eyes; he saved future victims and also saved the taxpayers money. great job all around.

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

he took 2 criminals off the street and we don't have to pay to support them in jail. in my eyes; he saved future victims and also saved the taxpayers money. great job all around.

Well I don't really see it as a good job more like a set of circumstances that have played out with a not particularly good outcome. But I'm sure you and Dad would have a great conversation about it! And probably about tax, businesses and trusts too.

Kel Varnsen

onelongsong wrote:

he took 2 criminals off the street and we don't have to pay to support them in jail. in my eyes; he saved future victims and also saved the taxpayers money. great job all around.

He basically decided, in advance, that the penalty for robbing his neighbor’s house would be death and that he would dole out the punishment. How should any one person be able to decide that? It is not like he was using force to prevent the robbery, since it had already happened.

Plus I am not sure how he saved the taxpayers any money, since if the guys were arrested there would have been a robbery investigation and trial. But now since he killed them there will have to be a homicide investigation and possibly a trial. Doesn’t really seem to be a whole lot of savings there.

onelongsong

Kel Varnsen wrote:

He basically decided, in advance, that the penalty for robbing his neighbor’s house would be death and that he would dole out the punishment. How should any one person be able to decide that? It is not like he was using force to prevent the robbery, since it had already happened.

Plus I am not sure how he saved the taxpayers any money, since if the guys were arrested there would have been a robbery investigation and trial. But now since he killed them there will have to be a homicide investigation and possibly a trial. Doesn’t really seem to be a whole lot of savings there.

with all due respect kel; the legislators decided the penalty for robbing his neighbours house would be death if caught in the act; which they were. the legislators gave him the authority to dole out the punishment.
there's no need for a homicide investigation because they were caught in the act. he was within the law so there'll be no trial.

however; if they had lived; an investigation would be done for the robbery. a normal trial costs about $25K each for this type of crime. holding them in jail costs about $40K/year and keeping him on paper (probation, etc) about $5K/year. so he saved the taxpayers quite a bit.

onelongsong

onelongsong wrote:

i see you didn't read my response to cosmo in the other thread. the IRS law says you have to pay tax on income. if you don't draw any income; you don't have to file. ask your tax law teacher.

my dad's house was broken into and close to $50K in jewelry and gold taken. NOTHING ELSE; they didn't touch his gun because it was traceable. jewelry and gold are almost untraceable. dvds and stereos have serial numbers that can be traced back to the stores that sold them. if the person sent in the warranty; it can be traced to the owner himself. gold can be easily melted down.

do you even think before posting something?

sorry; it was my response to the QUESTION FOR AMERICAN VOTERS thread. post #69.

Pacomc79

Kel Varnsen wrote:

He basically decided, in advance, that the penalty for robbing his neighbor’s house would be death and that he would dole out the punishment. How should any one person be able to decide that? It is not like he was using force to prevent the robbery, since it had already happened.

Plus I am not sure how he saved the taxpayers any money, since if the guys were arrested there would have been a robbery investigation and trial. But now since he killed them there will have to be a homicide investigation and possibly a trial. Doesn’t really seem to be a whole lot of savings there.

maybe he will make a few losers think twice about a home invasion next time.

If you break into someones home you should be afraid of death. If you're not, what would stop anyone from doing it?

Why investigate? They already know what happened. The investigation takes about 30 minutes and should take minimal paperwork. Two guys broke in putting the occupants of the domicile and their property in danger, they got shot, they died.

Perhaps we aren't hard enough on people who invade homes and that's why it continues to occur at a rapid rate. It's not like we cut their hands off or arms off or something like they do in other countries, at worst they go to jail for a few months or years and learn how to become better criminals and thieves to not get caught as much.

He knew as well as you and I calling the police was going to get no result for getting his property back.

I just think if you choose commit a crime... you get what you get period. Is it the right course of action... hell no, but no one has to invade homes and steal property or murder people either.

The police are mostly worthless when it comes to home invasion except after the fact and by that time whether they are murderers or thieves they don't get caught very often.

It's not like vigilantism is rampant anyway especially considering the growing number of home invasions.

He was home when they did it and they fucked up. I don't think we need to change any laws for two dead criminals.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

then you don't know much about law. check into trusts.

i melt down gold. anyone with a torch can melt down gold. you don't go to a pawn shop because the jewelry can be identified. there's always a picture of that item. if dad gives mum a necklass; you can bet there's a picture of her wearing it. and if my dad converted all his assetts to gold; they would have taken $13 million in gold. what was stolen was gifts to my mum or to him.

prospecting is still quite popular and all you have to do is call a prospecting shop to find out where to sell gold. it's easy to melt a necklass down into droplets and say you found it in a stream. in big cities you fence the jewelry. only idiots use pawn shops. when you pawn something; the pawn shop is REQUIRED to check with the police to see if it's stolen. why not take a used dvd player to a pawn shop and see what they'll give you. $10 to $20 usd. there's no money in stealing them. $20.00 is not worth the risk of getting shot. #20.00 may buy you lunch but you'll have to rob another house for dinner.
use common sense. any cop will tell you that theives go directly to the master bedroom. that's where the money is. most theives are in and out in 3 minutes. unless there's a murder.

my dad was targeted because he lives in an area of million dollar houses. several houses in his neighbourhood were targeted.

you get an armful of cd's and you get enough cash to get a nice rock of crack or bag of weed or 40 ounce. what more do you need?