"Loose Change" movie

jeffbr

baraka wrote:

Are you picking on me today, Jeffbr?

I can see the parallel, personally. Let me repeat: By harboring the hatred, you only allow the evil to continue to abuse you. I can't tell you how enlightening it is to let go of the past and those that harmed you. I used the example of my daughter to make a point. I don't think it would be easy to 'forgive' my enemy. But those that do are no longer a victim.

LOL, not trying to pick on you. I don't tend to post in a lot of different threads, but when I join a thread I hang out there. You just happened to post in a couple of threads I've been following.

As usual, you tend to take a calm, reasoned approach to your views. I can respect that you would seek the more difficult path to forgiveness. I would seek a cathartic path to revenge, and in doing so hope it would also release my hatred. Since I have no religious notion of the virtue of forgiveness and the WWJD question, I'm afraid I'd harbor hate the entire time I was trying to realize this concept of forgiveness. My approach would be a more direct purging of the bad feelings.

jlew24asu

baraka wrote:

This is hard stuff, jlew. I think I would want to stop the violence in the name of my daughter. I wouldn't want to perpetuate something might result in the death of someone else's daughter.

not a bad idea there at all. but you still run into the problem of them hitting us again. its hard stuff for sure.

baraka

jeffbr wrote:

LOL, not trying to pick on you. I don't tend to post in a lot of different threads, but when I join a thread I hang out there. You just happened to post in a couple of threads I've been following.

As usual, you tend to take a calm, reasoned approach to your views. I can respect that you would seek the more difficult path to forgiveness. I would seek a cathartic path to revenge, and in doing so hope it would also release my hatred. Since I have no religious notion of the virtue of forgiveness and the WWJD question, I'm afraid I'd harbor hate the entire time I was trying to realize this concept of forgiveness. My approach would be a more direct purging of the bad feelings.

I was just kidding . I'm enjoying the back and forth.

Well, I've been down that path of hate and revenge, blaming others that harmed me in the past for my failures. Let me just say it sucked and wasn't very cathartic at all. Forgiveness isn't a concept just for the religious. It is an important tenet, but not all 'religious' folks practice it (obviously). Again, I'm not sure if I would have much grace if my daughter was harmed, but really, all the hate and thoughts of revenge only prolongs the misery. Forgiveness of yourself and others is a hard pill to swallow, but I personally believe it can work miracles.

baraka

jlew24asu wrote:

I hear ya. but reality is reality. I want peace, you want peace, abook wants peace. there will always be some that dont no matter how much we try to lead by example.

I agree reality is reality, but I'm tired of self-fulfilling prophecies. If you don't believe peace is possible, then it's not. Focus on what you want, peace. You might be surprised at what is possible.

baraka

jlew24asu wrote:

not a bad idea there at all. but you still run into the problem of them hitting us again. its hard stuff for sure.

The Canadians? Nah

angelica

jeffbr wrote:

I'm afraid I'd harbor hate the entire time I was trying to realize this concept of forgiveness. My approach would be a more direct purging of the bad feelings.

You're a logical person. If you seek money, but cling to poverty, how do you feel you will find money? And likewise, while clinging to hatred, how will that bring forgiveness?

Rather than a purging of feelings, it sounds more like you would be choosing to perpetuate the bad feelings. I agree with baraka--forgiveness is not a religious concept, it's a human concept.

baraka

angelica wrote:

You're a logical person. If you seek money, but cling to poverty, how do you feel you will find money? And likewise, while clinging to hatred, how will that bring forgiveness?

Rather than a purging of feelings, it sounds more like you would be choosing to perpetuate the bad feelings. I agree with baraka--forgiveness is not a religious concept, it's a human concept.

well said, angelica

angelica

baraka wrote:

well said, angelica

Thanks, you....I see we have a date tonight...;)

baraka

angelica wrote:

Thanks, you....I see we have a date tonight...;)

Yay!

angelica

baraka wrote:

Yay!

jeffbr

angelica wrote:

You're a logical person. If you seek money, but cling to poverty, how do you feel you will find money? And likewise, while clinging to hatred, how will that bring forgiveness?

Rather than a purging of feelings, it sounds more like you would be choosing to perpetuate the bad feelings. I agree with baraka--forgiveness is not a religious concept, it's a human concept.

Conceptually, I think I agree with both you and Baraka. But the reality is that if anyone harmed either of my kids, concepts go out the window. I would hunt them down and punish them. I can accept that it is a personal weakness.

angelica

jeffbr wrote:

Conceptually, I think I agree with both you and Baraka. But the reality is that if anyone harmed either of my kids, concepts go out the window. I would hunt them down and punish them. I can accept that it is a personal weakness.

It's not a wonder that many of us respond emotionally, since our emotions are more deeply ingrained in terms of brain functions, and when we are stressed, the first thing to go out the window is our later-evolved brain function of reasoning.

thelowlightargentina

jlew24asu wrote:

but sadly war has been happening since the beginning of mankind. its something that will never go away. there will always be crazy poeple like bin laden or hitler who will bring war to people who dont want it.

What about George Bush in Irak?
And please remember that the Osama Bin Laden´s family have a very close relation with the Bush family...I´m talking about money and oil bussiness

thelowlightargentina

jlew24asu wrote:

its not just the US who is making this decision. the world stands united on the issue of Iran having nukes.

I´m wondering which is your favourite TV channel...It must be CNN

thelowlightargentina

scot88 wrote:

watching your best friend's life be permanently fucked up because he lost a parent in 9/11 will make you support a war fairly quickly. and you would never support a war? how about fighting the nazis?

Imagine yourself as a man from Irak. One day, you wake up and all this bombs are falling down, your country ss burning everywhere. The reasons? Your president have serious plans to attack USA. Then the US army comes, destroys everything and...oh!!! the massive attack weapons...no, there aren´t.
How would you feel about USA goverment? I guess there are not too many differences with the nazis. The terrorists are everywhere.

jeffbr

thelowlightargentina wrote:

I guess there are not too many differences with the nazis. The terrorists are everywhere.

You need to quit while you're behind because now your analogy has turned fucking stupid. Play the Nazi card where it isn't warranted, and totally kill a thread. Well done, kid.

thelowlightargentina

jeffbr wrote:

You need to quit while you're behind because now your analogy has turned fucking stupid. Play the Nazi card where it isn't warranted, and totally kill a thread. Well done, kid.

I didn´t say you or the entire USA people were nazi. I was trying to say that if you lived in Irak and the war destroyed your entire country and your way of life you would see to those who attack you like the jewish people saw the nazis in the II world war.

PS: and please try to stay calm...maybe you are upset because I said something wrong but you don´t need to use that words.

P E A C E

jeffbr

thelowlightargentina wrote:

I didn´t say you or the entire USA people were nazi. I was trying to say that if you lived in Irak and the war destroyed your entire country and your way of life you would see to those who attack you like the jewish people saw the nazis in the II world war.

I still maintain that the analogy is weak and unfounded.

thelowlightargentina wrote:

PS: and please try to stay calm...maybe you are upset because I said something wrong but you don´t need to use that words.

P E A C E

I'm quite calm. I just get annoyed when people throw around Nazi comparisons. This has always killed threads on the Internet, and had been used by people with weak arguments simply for dramatic effect. I guess "fucking stupid" was a dramatic response to that.

scot88

thelowlightargentina wrote:

Imagine yourself as a man from Irak. One day, you wake up and all this bombs are falling down, your country ss burning everywhere. The reasons? Your president have serious plans to attack USA. Then the US army comes, destroys everything and...oh!!! the massive attack weapons...no, there aren´t.
How would you feel about USA goverment? I guess there are not too many differences with the nazis. The terrorists are everywhere.

i'd love to retort, but i honestly can't understand what you are getting at.

i'm not attacking you, i'm just saying.

Matt8townsend

thelowlightargentina wrote:

As far as I can see, there are some serious problems in what I´m trying to say here. I don´t speak english very good, and I think some of my ideas I´m trying to express can´t catch their real meaning.
All that I can say is that my thoughts are not product of what I saw in that movie. Let´s say it´s pure b*llshit. But since that tragic day and beyond I always doubt about every step that Bush took....
And please sorry, I´m an idiot and you are the bright one, I´m sure you were the one that supported war against Afganistan to kill Osama Bin Laden and you could never find him. Anyway, let´s destroy and kill everyone in there...just to be sure of.
you were the one that supported war in Irak because they had massive attack weapons and you could never find not even ONE. Anyway, let´s destroy every building, every single part of their culture and kill people every single day since this nightmare started...just in case they have those "weapons".
And now Iran, with their nuclear bombs and evil plans to destroy the world. Are you sure that in USA there aren´t any nuclear bomb?
All that I want to say is this: let´s put ourselves in the other´s place. Justice must be for all, not for some.

Just because I treat a completely unjustified and undevidenced conspiracy theory with the contempt it deserves, why do you leap to the conclusion that I am some kind of right wing neo-con nut job who supports the foreign policy of the Bush administration? One does not logically follow from the other and you've no evidence whatsoever on which to conclude I supprt those policies. This is an intersting example of how you think about things and its that kind of rash leap to conclusions that are not supported by evidence that is why you put stock in a steaming pile of sh8t like Loose Change.

For the record I did not support the bombing of Aghanistan and was positively opposed to the invasion to Iraq from the very beginning (and took part in the staged protest that marched through London).