Yeah, it really makes no sense to say that you don't agree with a guy while seeking advice from him for that long. Why did he choose the guy then? It would have to mean Obama is a highly illogical person when making decision for himself or he's just not being upfront and trying to distance himself. He's a politician so you can make the call there.
This hillary shit makes me sick!!! His pastor made over 20000 comments and views over the 20 years Obama was in his parrish. So because 5 of them made it to youtube, these are his main beliefs and they MUST be Obama's too? Because he went to that church and was even married by the pastor???? Grow the fuck up. This feels like a debate with a republican.
My Phys ed teacher was my favorite and i really looked up to him. He even coached my basketball team. Turns out he was gay.....Oh my god... Our whole team must be gay!!!!
This hillary shit makes me sick!!! His pastor made over 20000 comments and views over the 20 years Obama was in his parrish. So because 5 of them made it to youtube, these are his main beliefs and they MUST be Obama's too? Because he went to that church and was even married by the pastor???? Grow the fuck up. This feels like a debate with a republican.
Did it sound to you like those comments were completely off the wall and different from any other sermon of his? His congregation with their "oh, yeahs" & "amens" were clearly feeling it. They certainly weren't stunned into silence by off the wall comments. Keep trying, though. It sounds like you've got yourself convinced, at leat.
My Phys ed teacher was my favorite and i really looked up to him. He even coached my basketball team. Turns out he was gay.....Oh my god... Our whole team must be gay!!!!
Same shit...different pile.
Wrong. I'm guessing your teacher didn't talk about his private feelings. Hence "turns out he was gay". If he talked about it all of the time, then it wouldn't have been surprising. I'm guessing he was like most adults and most teachers and kept his private life and feeling separate. If Wright preached peace and love in his public sermons, but it came out that in private he was a racist hatemonger, then your example might have valididty. The example of your phys ed teacher is nothing like the Wright / Obama situation.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Did it sound to you like those comments were completely off the wall and different from any other sermon of his? His congregation with their "oh, yeahs" & "amens" were clearly feeling it. They certainly weren't stunned into silence by off the wall comments. Keep trying, though. It sounds like you've got yourself convinced, at leat.
Wrong. I'm guessing your teacher didn't talk about his private feelings. Hence "turns out he was gay". If he talked about it all of the time, then it wouldn't have been surprising. I'm guessing he was like most adults and most teachers and kept his private life and feeling separate. If Wright preached peace and love in his public sermons, but it came out that in private he was a racist hatemonger, then your example might have valididty. The example of your phys ed teacher is nothing like the Wright / Obama situation.
Do you really feel that every person that attends that church is a hatemongerer? Really??? Guilt by association? I guess you are saying anyone that goes to church does not have the power to think for themselves. A bunch of people said amen so they must all believe it to be? Really??
And we may have thought our coach was possibly gay. We just didn't care because he was a great teacher and a great coach. And I understand overlooking homosexuality and hate comments is not the best example. But I'm sure it is even more difficult for some to overlook his being gay.
Do you really feel that every person that attends that church is a hatemongerer? Really??? Guilt by association? I guess you are saying anyone that goes to church does not have the power to think for themselves. A bunch of people said amen so they must all believe it to be? Really??
And we may have thought our coach was possibly gay. We just didn't care because he was a great teacher and a great coach. And I understand overlooking homosexuality and hate comments is not the best example. But I'm sure it is even more difficult for some to overlook his being gay.
why do ppl go to church? why would they yell 'amen!!' if they didn't agree?? if i went to a church or somewhere and the preacher, or whomever, was talking about sacrificing your child for god, pedophilia....i wouldn't shout 'amen!!!' i'd say what the fuck are you talking about???? and never go back!
i know obama and this guy aren't the same person, but church is supposed to be there for guidance, and obama continued to go despite of what was being said. imagine if hillary went to church and they preached support fo al qaeda or something, would you say 'ah, but hillary didn[t say it!' no, you all would be going crazy saying she goes there and listens to it so she must support it to keep going back for 20 years
but then, it is obama and he probably just went for the show of going but seriously, what's the point in going to church if you don't believe what is being said? seems like a waste of time
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Do you really feel that every person that attends that church is a hatemongerer? Really??? Guilt by association? I guess you are saying anyone that goes to church does not have the power to think for themselves. A bunch of people said amen so they must all believe it to be? Really??
Everyone who said "amen" to his statements is a racist hatemonger, yes. Everyone who knew what they would be walking into every Sunday, and continued to do so for decades is not a victim of "guilt by association". They are willing participants.
Like Kabong said, either he was a willing participant or he was there simply to show that he is a god-fearing, church-going man, but not really believing or paying attention. But I'll let you decide if he's faking it, or if he really is a believer in his church.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Yeah, it really makes no sense to say that you don't agree with a guy while seeking advice from him for that long. Why did he choose the guy then? It would have to mean Obama is a highly illogical person when making decision for himself or he's just not being upfront and trying to distance himself. He's a politician so you can make the call there.
Let me try to explain it as i see it, from the perspective of someone with what i feel is an adequate point of reference.
My wife and i have attended the same church for, going on, fifteen years. The head pastor there married us. Counseled us prior to marriage and several years after marriage during a rough spell. He has visited me in the hospital when during a very stressful time when i presumed to be much sicker than i actually was. i know virtually NOTHING about his views politically. They are probably different from my own, in some cases, i can only guess, grossly. i don't really know. That isn't what attracted us to this church and it isn't why we attend church in the first place. Obama has emphatically rejected the comments of his pastor that are in question. The case should be basically closed.
This whole business is party to the same type of political insanity that you, abook, rightly, speak out against almost daily in this forum. It isn't just you. i guess we shouldn't talk about the AIDS epidemic in Africa. We needn't bother ourselves with genocide in Darfur. Poverty, homelesness, hunger and a gross lack of health insurance, right here, in America, is of little concern, apparently. The educational achievement gap in this country and our apparent educational shortcomings in comparison to the rest of the world aren't really issues of priority. The war in Iraq, conflicts in the midle east, and our horrid esteem in the eyes of the world are, i'm guessing of little importance.
What's REALLY important, what we really need to have major dialogue about, is a small handful of abrasive comments made by Barack Obama's church pastor that Obama himself has vehemently rejected.
As a progressive, Abook, i'm sure you understand that focusing on this shit doesn't progress us anywhere. It only contributes to the type of diviseveness we should be seeking to progress beyond, not only in our politics, but in our lives. You yourself, asked me about sharing ideas on how to progress our nation and our world (a somewhat flattering request), we might start with this.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
why do ppl go to church? why would they yell 'amen!!' if they didn't agree?? if i went to a church or somewhere and the preacher, or whomever, was talking about sacrificing your child for god, pedophilia....i wouldn't shout 'amen!!!' i'd say what the fuck are you talking about???? and never go back!
i know obama and this guy aren't the same person, but church is supposed to be there for guidance, and obama continued to go despite of what was being said. imagine if hillary went to church and they preached support fo al qaeda or something, would you say 'ah, but hillary didn[t say it!' no, you all would be going crazy saying she goes there and listens to it so she must support it to keep going back for 20 years
but then, it is obama and he probably just went for the show of going but seriously, what's the point in going to church if you don't believe what is being said? seems like a waste of time
Except that Obama did not attend those sermons. This pastor said 1000's of things. You have been brainwashed into believing that he said that garbage every week. Or it is what you want to believe. But it simply is not the truth. If you want some truth you will find that this pastor has done more for his community than anyone could imagine. That is likely why Obama chose that church in the first place as he had no family ties.
Oh and even if he fakes going to that church and really doesn't have religious beliefs, he just goes so that he can gain higher office, as so many proclaim. Then good for him. I'll even be a stronger supporter.
Let me try to explain it as i see it, from the perspective of someone with what i feel is an adequate point of reference.
My wife and i have attended the same church for, going on, fifteen years. The head pastor there married us. Counseled us prior to marriage and several years after marriage during a rough spell. He has visited me in the hospital when during a very stressful time when i presumed to be much sicker than i actually was. i know virtually NOTHING about his views politically. They are probably different from my own, in some cases, i can only guess, grossly. i don't really know. That isn't what attracted us to this church and it isn't why we attend church in the first place. Obama has emphatically rejected the comments of his pastor that are in question. The case should be basically closed.
This whole business is party to the same type of political insanity that you, abook, rightly, speak out against almost daily in this forum. It isn't just you. i guess we shouldn't talk about the AIDS epidemic in Africa. We needn't bother ourselves with genocide in Darfur. Poverty, homelesness, hunger and a gross lack of health insurance, right here, in America, is of little concern, apparently. The educational achievement gap in this country and our apparent educational shortcomings in comparison to the rest of the world aren't really issues of priority. The war in Iraq, conflicts in the midle east, and our horrid esteem in the eyes of the world are, i'm guessing of little importance.
What's REALLY important, what we really need to have major dialogue about, is a small handful of abrasive comments made by Barack Obama's church pastor that Obama himself has vehemently rejected.
As a progressive, Abook, i'm sure you understand that focusing on this shit doesn't progress us anywhere. It only contributes to the type of diviseveness we should be seeking to progress beyond, not only in our politics, but in our lives. You yourself, asked me about sharing ideas on how to progress our nation and our world (a somewhat flattering request), we might start with this.
I'll have to get back with in detail later. I'm gonna be away from the puter for a bit. But I will say, this isn't an important issue to me. I only chimed in for argument's sake. I just feel like you go to church for guidance and Wright seems to be going in a different idealogical direction than Obama claims to be so I thought it was worth pointing out.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'll have to get back with in detail later. I'm gonna be away from the puter for a bit. But I will say, this isn't an important issue to me. I only chimed in for argument's sake. I just feel like you go to church for guidance and Wright seems to be going in a different idealogical direction than Obama claims to be so I thought it was worth pointing out.
You go to church for "spiritual" guidance, learning, and worship. You do not go to church for political guidance. My political stances are not shaped or inspired by my church. That isn't what church is for. Like i pointed out, after fifteen years of attendance and counsel, i know little to absolutely nothing about my pastor's political views.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Except that Obama did not attend those sermons. This pastor said 1000's of things. You have been brainwashed into believing that he said that garbage every week. Or it is what you want to believe. But it simply is not the truth. If you want some truth you will find that this pastor has done more for his community than anyone could imagine. That is likely why Obama chose that church in the first place as he had no family ties.
Oh and even if he fakes going to that church and really doesn't have religious beliefs, he just goes so that he can gain higher office, as so many proclaim. Then good for him. I'll even be a stronger supporter.
neither, actually
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Except that Obama did not attend those sermons. This pastor said 1000's of things. You have been brainwashed into believing that he said that garbage every week. Or it is what you want to believe. But it simply is not the truth. If you want some truth you will find that this pastor has done more for his community than anyone could imagine. That is likely why Obama chose that church in the first place as he had no family ties.
Oh and even if he fakes going to that church and really doesn't have religious beliefs, he just goes so that he can gain higher office, as so many proclaim. Then good for him. I'll even be a stronger supporter.
You have been brain-washed to think that there was no possibility that he didn't say this stuff weekly.
You think that the guy checked the attendance sheet beforehand to make sure the Obamas weren't there? Let's see hate speech today or watered down safe sermon? Is Barack here? Nope. Ok, let's go with the anti-America sermon.
This guy must have just changed his tune after 20 years. I know lots of people like that. :rolleyes:
The fact is that Obama is by far the best candidate. And having a weird pator or being black isn't going to change that. We all have our opinions and it will take more than someones religion to change mine.
The fact is that Obama is by far the best candidate. And having a weird pator or being black isn't going to change that. We all have our opinions and it will take more than someones religion to change mine.
Obama is the best candidate? damn...we're fucked...again.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
The fact is that Obama is by far the best candidate. And having a weird pator or being black isn't going to change that. We all have our opinions and it will take more than someones religion to change mine.
How is he the best candidate? What makes him that?
And yet he thought enough about the teachings of this racist that he spent 20 formative years in the congregation. And yet he thought highly enough about the teachings of this racist that he had him marry the Obama's. And yet he thought highly enough about this racist that he titled his book after Wright's words. No wonder his wife had never been proud of this country. She spent so long listening to Wright telling her God damn this country. They spent 20 years being taught that the white man introduced AIDS into the black population to kill them off. They spent 20 years being taught that whites introduced drugs to the black population so they could stick 'em in prisons. I wonder how Obama really feels about this country.
So, are you more comfortable with John "Hagee" McCain?
So, are you more comfortable with John "Hagee" McCain?
Woah, definitely not. Hagee is a freak as well and that could be a fun thread. I am not comfortable with, nor will I vote for any of the big 3 candidates.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
You go to church for "spiritual" guidance, learning, and worship. You do not go to church for political guidance. My political stances are not shaped or inspired by my church. That isn't what church is for. Like i pointed out, after fifteen years of attendance and counsel, i know little to absolutely nothing about my pastor's political views.
I'm just saying, no matter what candidate it is, if they went to a church for 20 years lead by someone who spouts this kind of stuff, then there's going to be fallout. These kind of beliefs speak to what kind of person Wright must be. Does a pastor's sermon not reflect who he is? His views went beyond political opinions and ventured into extreme paranoia and bigotry. And he didn't just keep these thoughts to himself, he felt strongly enough about them to share these sentiments with the whole congregation. These kind of views come from psychological leanings which don't just pop up suddenly and disappear again. I just find it hard to believe that Obama was not aware of this guy's views on matters like this. And any other candidate would be going through the same scrutiny if surrounded the same sort of circumstances. If Hillary's pastor of 20 years had said black people were destroying this country, people would be all over it just them same. Let's be fair and honest about it.
That said, this isn't a big issue for me in the slightest. I've got much bigger problems with Obama. I just chimed in to say it wasn't such a stretch for this to be a concern for some people. There is a point to be made and many of you were acting like it was ridiculous to even bring up. I don't think you're being honest with yourself if you're saying it wouldn't have been a issue for many of you if it had been a story about Hillary. This isn't a vote changing story but it's definitely worth some thought.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
A half-white/half-black man becomes locally political and joins a church to cement his relationship with a certain local constituency.
And then, when he decides to run for president on a national level, he distances himself from that church.
Political expediency pure and simple.
Good for him. I'd do the same. One has to achieve goals some how in the united states. Makes me believe he'll find a way to get things accomplished in the white house as well.
Richard Wright: Openly denounced and off the campaign.
Louis Farakhan: Never even close to part of the campaign, yet, publicly rejected and denounced.
The Clinton is a monster Lady: Off the campaign
Now, what about Geraldine Ferraro? Clinton has not even close to appologized for or adequately rejected or denounced this dinosaur's vile tripe. Sure, she stepped down (with no urging from clinton), but continues to run her mouth.
What about clinton's other surrogates she sets up to spew hatred for her so she looks innocent. Give me a break with this Richard Wright bullshit. Call in to the Hannity show and chat with him about it for God's sake, but give the rest of us a break.
What about your Senator Obama in a memo calling Hillary, essentially, Senator Punjab? "Oh, I'm so sorry," makes it all okay? This is not exactly a racially neutral thing and potentially offensive to both Clinton and anyone Punjabi. Indeed, it could be very offensive to anyone Indian American.
Ferraro said that she never would have been chosen to run for veep if her name were Gerald Ferraro. Very true. She was in the right place at the right time. Was she qualified. Very much so. She made a parallel observation about Obama being in the right place at the right time. Is he qualified? Very much so. Wow. How racist to make an obvious observation. What vile tripe! She noticed she was a woman and he was black and there's something to being in the right place at the right time. Whoa!! We can't have people going around saying things that might be true, can we?
Nothing Hillary has ever said, or her people have ever said, comes anything close to what Obama himself said and what a person he has very closely allied with himself has said. Wright has made, imo, racist statements. I don't really need a tirade against rich white people, black people, or any people whatever. Additionally, I don't think we need antisemetic comments made that go unchecked. And while I'm not exactly wild about "God Bless America," because it's so exclusive...I really don't like "God Damn America" outright. I am proud of the country, even despite our shortcomings.
And while were talking about surrogates, what Obama's? What about "Maxim Thorne, a member of the Obama campaign’s GLBT Leadership Council and former chief operating officer at the Human Rights Campaign, wrote that Hillary Clinton should disclose her whereabouts “when Monica was having sex with Bill.” Thorne penned his message in a lengthy e-mail to a listserv with hundreds of recipients, according to a report in Politico." He went on at length in this vein. Why don't we talk about some of Obama's surrogates, huh, spewing their actually vile tripe? (He was let go after the fact.)
What I like least about the whole fiasco is Senator Obama's flopping around like a fish out of water, first writing in a book that Wright was like an uncle you don't always agree with, then saying he'd never heard of these things, to saying he had heard of them after all, but never attended church while Wright was saying these things. His own people say Wright was a worry a year ago because of his views. But Obama didn't know what they were???? Please. Politician = liar. Professional liar, no better than any other professional liar.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Obama should not be held accountable for what others say. However, he needs to be held accountable for what he says and the choices that he makes. Despite his current forsaking of the leper, Wright, he did it because he was forced to politically, not because he chose to otherwise. Wright was denounced and reject as of Friday--not one year ago when concerns were raised by his own camp, and not many years ago when concerns might have been raised by his own conscience. That's worth thinking about.
Clinton is monstrously tough and certainly no angel. I'll give you that. A break? No. I'm sorry if you don't like what you're hearing about your guy. But, walk on water he doesn't do. New politics? Don't make me laugh.
Do you really feel that every person that attends that church is a hatemongerer? Really??? Guilt by association? I guess you are saying anyone that goes to church does not have the power to think for themselves. A bunch of people said amen so they must all believe it to be? Really??
And we may have thought our coach was possibly gay. We just didn't care because he was a great teacher and a great coach. And I understand overlooking homosexuality and hate comments is not the best example. But I'm sure it is even more difficult for some to overlook his being gay.
I could not belong to a church that put down one group of people in order to uplift another. You cannot equate being gay with spewing things that foster racial or ethnic strife. I don't think that being homosexual is anything anyone needs to overlook in this day and age. But, I do think that one's belonging to a church lead by a man who said some of the things that were said is something that cannot be overlooked in any age.
More than a year after the initial success of the invasion, Obama explained, "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." And he was correct. In July 2004, he argued that America had an "absolute obligation" to stay in Iraq until the country stabilized. "The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster," he said. "It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died."
Two months later, Obama criticized Bush's conduct of the war but repeated that simply pulling out would further destabilize Iraq, making it an "extraordinary hotbed of terrorist activity." And he signaled his openness to the deployment of additional troops if this would make an eventual withdrawal more likely.
In June 2006, Obama still opposed "a date certain for the total withdrawal of U.S. troops." "I don't think it's appropriate for Congress," he said, "to make those decisions about what happens in the field."
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
More than a year after the initial success of the invasion, Obama explained, "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." And he was correct. In July 2004, he argued that America had an "absolute obligation" to stay in Iraq until the country stabilized. "The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster," he said. "It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died."
Two months later, Obama criticized Bush's conduct of the war but repeated that simply pulling out would further destabilize Iraq, making it an "extraordinary hotbed of terrorist activity." And he signaled his openness to the deployment of additional troops if this would make an eventual withdrawal more likely.
In June 2006, Obama still opposed "a date certain for the total withdrawal of U.S. troops." "I don't think it's appropriate for Congress," he said, "to make those decisions about what happens in the field."
With more than half the country opposed to the war in Iraq I can't believe-its fucking incredible-that we don't have an anti-war candidate that has a legitimate chance at becoming president. It shows us how tight the controls are on the people that control the parties, to not allow someone that the majority would support. Our time wikll come though, I'm willing...and waiting.
With more than half the country opposed to the war in Iraq I can't believe-its fucking incredible-that we don't have an anti-war candidate that has a legitimate chance at becoming president. It shows us how tight the controls are on the people that control the parties, to not allow someone that the majority would support. Our time wikll come though, I'm willing...and waiting.
im starting to really like you Commy! : )
Peace, Love.
"To question your government is not unpatriotic --
to not question your government is unpatriotic."
-- Sen. Chuck Hagel
With more than half the country opposed to the war in Iraq I can't believe-its fucking incredible-that we don't have an anti-war candidate that has a legitimate chance at becoming president.
What does "anti-war" mean to you? Pulling every single troop from iraq by 12:36 this afternoon? That's not anti-war. That's stupid and irresponsible.
Allowing for absolutely no provocation at all to lead us into violent conflict? Nothing at all? That, also is not "anti-war", but stupid and irresponsible.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I'm just saying, no matter what candidate it is, if they went to a church for 20 years lead by someone who spouts this kind of stuff, then there's going to be fallout. These kind of beliefs speak to what kind of person Wright must be. Does a pastor's sermon not reflect who he is? His views went beyond political opinions and ventured into extreme paranoia and bigotry. And he didn't just keep these thoughts to himself, he felt strongly enough about them to share these sentiments with the whole congregation. These kind of views come from psychological leanings which don't just pop up suddenly and disappear again. I just find it hard to believe that Obama was not aware of this guy's views on matters like this. And any other candidate would be going through the same scrutiny if surrounded the same sort of circumstances. If Hillary's pastor of 20 years had said black people were destroying this country, people would be all over it just them same. Let's be fair and honest about it.
That said, this isn't a big issue for me in the slightest. I've got much bigger problems with Obama. I just chimed in to say it wasn't such a stretch for this to be a concern for some people. There is a point to be made and many of you were acting like it was ridiculous to even bring up. I don't think you're being honest with yourself if you're saying it wouldn't have been a issue for many of you if it had been a story about Hillary. This isn't a vote changing story but it's definitely worth some thought.
What does "anti-war" mean to you? Pulling every single troop from iraq by 12:36 this afternoon? That's not anti-war. That's stupid and irresponsible.
Allowing for absolutely no provocation at all to lead us into violent conflict? Nothing at all? That, also is not "anti-war", but stupid and irresponsible.
Anti war means ending the occupation of Iraq.
WE invaded, we killed, its time to leave. Very simply concept.
Comments
This hillary shit makes me sick!!! His pastor made over 20000 comments and views over the 20 years Obama was in his parrish. So because 5 of them made it to youtube, these are his main beliefs and they MUST be Obama's too? Because he went to that church and was even married by the pastor???? Grow the fuck up. This feels like a debate with a republican.
My Phys ed teacher was my favorite and i really looked up to him. He even coached my basketball team. Turns out he was gay.....Oh my god... Our whole team must be gay!!!!
Same shit...different pile.
Did it sound to you like those comments were completely off the wall and different from any other sermon of his? His congregation with their "oh, yeahs" & "amens" were clearly feeling it. They certainly weren't stunned into silence by off the wall comments. Keep trying, though. It sounds like you've got yourself convinced, at leat.
Wrong. I'm guessing your teacher didn't talk about his private feelings. Hence "turns out he was gay". If he talked about it all of the time, then it wouldn't have been surprising. I'm guessing he was like most adults and most teachers and kept his private life and feeling separate. If Wright preached peace and love in his public sermons, but it came out that in private he was a racist hatemonger, then your example might have valididty. The example of your phys ed teacher is nothing like the Wright / Obama situation.
Do you really feel that every person that attends that church is a hatemongerer? Really??? Guilt by association? I guess you are saying anyone that goes to church does not have the power to think for themselves. A bunch of people said amen so they must all believe it to be? Really??
And we may have thought our coach was possibly gay. We just didn't care because he was a great teacher and a great coach. And I understand overlooking homosexuality and hate comments is not the best example. But I'm sure it is even more difficult for some to overlook his being gay.
why do ppl go to church? why would they yell 'amen!!' if they didn't agree?? if i went to a church or somewhere and the preacher, or whomever, was talking about sacrificing your child for god, pedophilia....i wouldn't shout 'amen!!!' i'd say what the fuck are you talking about???? and never go back!
i know obama and this guy aren't the same person, but church is supposed to be there for guidance, and obama continued to go despite of what was being said. imagine if hillary went to church and they preached support fo al qaeda or something, would you say 'ah, but hillary didn[t say it!' no, you all would be going crazy saying she goes there and listens to it so she must support it to keep going back for 20 years
but then, it is obama and he probably just went for the show of going
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Everyone who said "amen" to his statements is a racist hatemonger, yes. Everyone who knew what they would be walking into every Sunday, and continued to do so for decades is not a victim of "guilt by association". They are willing participants.
Like Kabong said, either he was a willing participant or he was there simply to show that he is a god-fearing, church-going man, but not really believing or paying attention. But I'll let you decide if he's faking it, or if he really is a believer in his church.
Let me try to explain it as i see it, from the perspective of someone with what i feel is an adequate point of reference.
My wife and i have attended the same church for, going on, fifteen years. The head pastor there married us. Counseled us prior to marriage and several years after marriage during a rough spell. He has visited me in the hospital when during a very stressful time when i presumed to be much sicker than i actually was. i know virtually NOTHING about his views politically. They are probably different from my own, in some cases, i can only guess, grossly. i don't really know. That isn't what attracted us to this church and it isn't why we attend church in the first place. Obama has emphatically rejected the comments of his pastor that are in question. The case should be basically closed.
This whole business is party to the same type of political insanity that you, abook, rightly, speak out against almost daily in this forum. It isn't just you. i guess we shouldn't talk about the AIDS epidemic in Africa. We needn't bother ourselves with genocide in Darfur. Poverty, homelesness, hunger and a gross lack of health insurance, right here, in America, is of little concern, apparently. The educational achievement gap in this country and our apparent educational shortcomings in comparison to the rest of the world aren't really issues of priority. The war in Iraq, conflicts in the midle east, and our horrid esteem in the eyes of the world are, i'm guessing of little importance.
What's REALLY important, what we really need to have major dialogue about, is a small handful of abrasive comments made by Barack Obama's church pastor that Obama himself has vehemently rejected.
As a progressive, Abook, i'm sure you understand that focusing on this shit doesn't progress us anywhere. It only contributes to the type of diviseveness we should be seeking to progress beyond, not only in our politics, but in our lives. You yourself, asked me about sharing ideas on how to progress our nation and our world (a somewhat flattering request), we might start with this.
Except that Obama did not attend those sermons. This pastor said 1000's of things. You have been brainwashed into believing that he said that garbage every week. Or it is what you want to believe. But it simply is not the truth. If you want some truth you will find that this pastor has done more for his community than anyone could imagine. That is likely why Obama chose that church in the first place as he had no family ties.
Oh and even if he fakes going to that church and really doesn't have religious beliefs, he just goes so that he can gain higher office, as so many proclaim. Then good for him. I'll even be a stronger supporter.
I'll have to get back with in detail later. I'm gonna be away from the puter for a bit. But I will say, this isn't an important issue to me. I only chimed in for argument's sake. I just feel like you go to church for guidance and Wright seems to be going in a different idealogical direction than Obama claims to be so I thought it was worth pointing out.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You go to church for "spiritual" guidance, learning, and worship. You do not go to church for political guidance. My political stances are not shaped or inspired by my church. That isn't what church is for. Like i pointed out, after fifteen years of attendance and counsel, i know little to absolutely nothing about my pastor's political views.
neither, actually
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
You have been brain-washed to think that there was no possibility that he didn't say this stuff weekly.
You think that the guy checked the attendance sheet beforehand to make sure the Obamas weren't there? Let's see hate speech today or watered down safe sermon? Is Barack here? Nope. Ok, let's go with the anti-America sermon.
This guy must have just changed his tune after 20 years. I know lots of people like that. :rolleyes:
it's just to what degree of hypocrite do you want to become
How is he the best candidate? What makes him that?
Woah, definitely not. Hagee is a freak as well and that could be a fun thread. I am not comfortable with, nor will I vote for any of the big 3 candidates.
I'm just saying, no matter what candidate it is, if they went to a church for 20 years lead by someone who spouts this kind of stuff, then there's going to be fallout. These kind of beliefs speak to what kind of person Wright must be. Does a pastor's sermon not reflect who he is? His views went beyond political opinions and ventured into extreme paranoia and bigotry. And he didn't just keep these thoughts to himself, he felt strongly enough about them to share these sentiments with the whole congregation. These kind of views come from psychological leanings which don't just pop up suddenly and disappear again. I just find it hard to believe that Obama was not aware of this guy's views on matters like this. And any other candidate would be going through the same scrutiny if surrounded the same sort of circumstances. If Hillary's pastor of 20 years had said black people were destroying this country, people would be all over it just them same. Let's be fair and honest about it.
That said, this isn't a big issue for me in the slightest. I've got much bigger problems with Obama. I just chimed in to say it wasn't such a stretch for this to be a concern for some people. There is a point to be made and many of you were acting like it was ridiculous to even bring up. I don't think you're being honest with yourself if you're saying it wouldn't have been a issue for many of you if it had been a story about Hillary. This isn't a vote changing story but it's definitely worth some thought.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And then, when he decides to run for president on a national level, he distances himself from that church.
Political expediency pure and simple.
Good for him. I'd do the same. One has to achieve goals some how in the united states. Makes me believe he'll find a way to get things accomplished in the white house as well.
What about your Senator Obama in a memo calling Hillary, essentially, Senator Punjab? "Oh, I'm so sorry," makes it all okay? This is not exactly a racially neutral thing and potentially offensive to both Clinton and anyone Punjabi. Indeed, it could be very offensive to anyone Indian American.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/120893.html
Ferraro said that she never would have been chosen to run for veep if her name were Gerald Ferraro. Very true. She was in the right place at the right time. Was she qualified. Very much so. She made a parallel observation about Obama being in the right place at the right time. Is he qualified? Very much so. Wow. How racist to make an obvious observation. What vile tripe! She noticed she was a woman and he was black and there's something to being in the right place at the right time. Whoa!! We can't have people going around saying things that might be true, can we?
Nothing Hillary has ever said, or her people have ever said, comes anything close to what Obama himself said and what a person he has very closely allied with himself has said. Wright has made, imo, racist statements. I don't really need a tirade against rich white people, black people, or any people whatever. Additionally, I don't think we need antisemetic comments made that go unchecked. And while I'm not exactly wild about "God Bless America," because it's so exclusive...I really don't like "God Damn America" outright. I am proud of the country, even despite our shortcomings.
And while were talking about surrogates, what Obama's? What about "Maxim Thorne, a member of the Obama campaign’s GLBT Leadership Council and former chief operating officer at the Human Rights Campaign, wrote that Hillary Clinton should disclose her whereabouts “when Monica was having sex with Bill.” Thorne penned his message in a lengthy e-mail to a listserv with hundreds of recipients, according to a report in Politico." He went on at length in this vein. Why don't we talk about some of Obama's surrogates, huh, spewing their actually vile tripe? (He was let go after the fact.)
What I like least about the whole fiasco is Senator Obama's flopping around like a fish out of water, first writing in a book that Wright was like an uncle you don't always agree with, then saying he'd never heard of these things, to saying he had heard of them after all, but never attended church while Wright was saying these things. His own people say Wright was a worry a year ago because of his views. But Obama didn't know what they were???? Please. Politician = liar. Professional liar, no better than any other professional liar.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Obama should not be held accountable for what others say. However, he needs to be held accountable for what he says and the choices that he makes. Despite his current forsaking of the leper, Wright, he did it because he was forced to politically, not because he chose to otherwise. Wright was denounced and reject as of Friday--not one year ago when concerns were raised by his own camp, and not many years ago when concerns might have been raised by his own conscience. That's worth thinking about.
Clinton is monstrously tough and certainly no angel. I'll give you that. A break? No. I'm sorry if you don't like what you're hearing about your guy. But, walk on water he doesn't do. New politics? Don't make me laugh.
I could not belong to a church that put down one group of people in order to uplift another. You cannot equate being gay with spewing things that foster racial or ethnic strife. I don't think that being homosexual is anything anyone needs to overlook in this day and age. But, I do think that one's belonging to a church lead by a man who said some of the things that were said is something that cannot be overlooked in any age.
he thinks being gay is a choice and is against gay marriage
on the war, read my sig and from ontheissues:
Withdraw gradually and keep some troops in Iraq region.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/16764316.html
More than a year after the initial success of the invasion, Obama explained, "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." And he was correct. In July 2004, he argued that America had an "absolute obligation" to stay in Iraq until the country stabilized. "The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster," he said. "It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died."
Two months later, Obama criticized Bush's conduct of the war but repeated that simply pulling out would further destabilize Iraq, making it an "extraordinary hotbed of terrorist activity." And he signaled his openness to the deployment of additional troops if this would make an eventual withdrawal more likely.
In June 2006, Obama still opposed "a date certain for the total withdrawal of U.S. troops." "I don't think it's appropriate for Congress," he said, "to make those decisions about what happens in the field."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
"To question your government is not unpatriotic --
to not question your government is unpatriotic."
-- Sen. Chuck Hagel
im starting to really like you Commy! : )
"To question your government is not unpatriotic --
to not question your government is unpatriotic."
-- Sen. Chuck Hagel
What does "anti-war" mean to you? Pulling every single troop from iraq by 12:36 this afternoon? That's not anti-war. That's stupid and irresponsible.
Allowing for absolutely no provocation at all to lead us into violent conflict? Nothing at all? That, also is not "anti-war", but stupid and irresponsible.
Well said.
Anti war means ending the occupation of Iraq.
WE invaded, we killed, its time to leave. Very simply concept.