if you voted for jr you supported killing in the name of religion...now if your Muslim....I don't get why you voted for Jr.....unless your seriously wealthy and put your wealth over your religion.
Yes it does matter. You seem to think it's so easy to boil down all of my beliefs into a campaign slogan. You claim to know so much about me, so I ask again, what religion do I follow?
if you voted for jr you supported killing in the name of religion...now if your Muslim....I don't get why you voted for Jr.....unless your seriously wealthy and put your wealth over your religion.
It does matter when you are ascribing accountability to others that is about your opinion or your imagination rather than the truth.
When people support killing in the name of religion, they are accountable for supporting killing in the name of religion.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Note the part where cornnifer said : "see things from a not prejudiced view"
If anyone is imagining one group to be "worse" and their own group "better", when in actuality we're all humans and we all do stupid things and we all do cool things, I'm hearing prujudice and personal bias. Human stupidity and arrogance has caused problems through time, not true faith.
Faith itself is the opposite of the cause of our problems through time. It has been humankind itself, with it's flawed propensity to bypass the true faith in our highest ideals. We've excused ourselves from acting on true faith and we've given ourselves license to insert human arrogance, ignorance and fallacy into so-called problem solving. THIS has caused our problems. Faith has been a convenient scapegoat.
There is a huge difference between faith and Christianity. Having faith in yourself and the people around you is a good thing. Having to follow dogmatic practises that tell you what to have faith in is a huge problem in the world. The problem with religion is that it generally isn't elastic. It has trouble changing with the times. In the long run, religion changes with society. In the short run, it doesn't and this is where all of the conflict comes from. Antiquated "rules" that were written thousands of years ago still spark hate and ignorance. I would even argue that the concept of an omniscient "god" is an antiquated notion in this day and age.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
There is a huge difference between faith and Christianity. Having faith in yourself and the people around you is a good thing. Having to follow dogmatic practises that tell you what to have faith in is a huge problem in the world. The problem with religion is that it generally isn't elastic. It has trouble changing with the times. In the long run, religion changes with society. In the short run, it doesn't and this is where all of the conflict comes from. Antiquated "rules" that were written thousands of years ago still spark hate and ignorance. I would even argue that the concept of an omniscient "god" is an antiquated notion in this day and age.
Either way, it's not the beautiful ideals of religion that causes problems. Treating others as you'd like to be treated is not causing war. Treating our parents with respect is not causing war. Being faithful to one's spouse is not causing a war. Loving all people is not causing a war. Trying to live up to the ideals of an enlightened being like Jesus is not causing a war. It's the unenlightened nature of or flaws in humans that are causing war, hatred and ongoing problems while abusing the name and spirit of religion in the process.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Yes it does matter. You seem to think it's so easy to boil down all of my beliefs into a campaign slogan. You claim to know so much about me, so I ask again, what religion do I follow?
you say your not an athiest....and from your answer it appears you voted for Jr......jr went for oil and to get the evil dangerous muslims.
you say your not an athiest....and from your answer it appears you voted for Jr......jr went for oil and to get the evil dangerous muslims.
If you don't care then you cannot pretend to boil down everything that I believe down into your own little campaign slogan. It seems that you have a habit of oversimplifying things when they are not really that simple.
I will try the same thing. It seems from your answers that you voted for John Kerry. You must support "killing people for religion" as well even though you seem to subscribe to the religion of atheism. It's clear to me on this board that atheism is, in itself, a religion and has a tendency to show the same amount of close minded intolerance as its high and mighty subscribers like to accuse others of.
Did I get it right? If I'm wrong I apologize. I wouldn't want to try to boil all of your belifs down into such simplicity. I doubt you would be willing to say the same though.
Either way, it's not the beautiful ideals of religion that causes problems. Treating others as you'd like to be treated is not causing war. Treating our parents with respect is not causing war. Being faithful to one's spouse is not causing a war. Loving all people is not causing a war. Trying to live up to the ideals of an enlightened being like Jesus is not causing a war. It's the unenlightened nature of or flaws in humans that are causing war, hatred and ongoing problems while abusing the name and spirit of religion in the process.
Everything that you mentioned are not religious ideals. They are human ideals. If you think that the above mentioned virtues weren't around before somebody created god and religion, then you truly are naive. I exhibit each of those virtues that you mentioned, yet I have never participated in an organized religion. It just irks me that some people need a reason to treat other people well. You shouldn't need a god or religion to tell you how to treat people.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
I can't say it enough. Those who think faith is responsible for all the worlds atrocities really need to wake the fuck up, open their eyes and see things from a not prejudiced view. I could care less if you believe in God, but stop blaming everything that is wrong in the world on those of us who do. Its weak and fucking pathetic. Holy shit, you people kill me. You're right. Atheists do no wrong and Christians and other people of faith do all the killing. I wonder how often Pol fucking Pot went to church or prayed. Sheesh. I wish people would shut the hell up with this stupid shit.
yeah, i doubt pol pot was a big church goer...i just find it kinda weird that our church-loving government officially supported his regime until the mid-90's...
It's clear to me on this board that atheism is, in itself, a religion and has a tendency to show the same amount of close minded intolerance as its high and mighty subscribers like to accuse others of.
I've definitely seen atheism-as-religion close minded intolerance rampant on this board, and in life, bigtime. High and mighty intolerance reveals itself as high and mighty intolerance, period, whatever the basis for it is.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Everything that you mentioned are not religious ideals. They are human ideals. If you think that the above mentioned virtues weren't around before somebody created god and religion, then you truly are naive. I exhibit each of those virtues that you mentioned, yet I have never participated in an organized religion. It just irks me that some people need a reason to treat other people well. You shouldn't need a god or religion to tell you how to treat people.
Sometimes people do things that they are not supposed to do. If someone uses religion as a reason to treat people well, why does it really matter as long as they are treating people well? The reason people do things shouldn't irk you as much as the actions.
Everything that you mentioned are not religious ideals. They are human ideals. If you think that the above mentioned virtues weren't around before somebody created god and religion, then you truly are naive. I exhibit each of those virtues that you mentioned, yet I have never participated in an organized religion. It just irks me that some people need a reason to treat other people well. You shouldn't need a god or religion to tell how how to treat people.
The highest ideals that we humans can fathom are our highest ideals, regardless of how we choose to define and attribute them. People who practise religions are human.
The fact remains that the ideals I spoke of are the ideals of numerous religions.
I wonder why the purposes of other people and how they define their highest ideals would irk you. You say "you shouldn't need..." . Does it bother you that people see things differently than you, or that people might have different needs?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Oh! It's good that this discussion came up. Running yesterday, this thought occured to me when I was seriously considering - and swimming in - "Right In Two" off Tool's new album:
I also pitty religious people, because...
...Beliefs offer humans two unique things among the animal kingdom:
Prayer - by which we choose the power of belief (be it deity or otherwise) to act upon the world on our behalf. This is a useful tool for humans, for it gives us patience - prayer is asking for something in response to something, thus it may take time, and it must remain to be seen - the human must let it be, and see it happen (whatever was prayed for) sometime in their future.
and, my personal favorite,
Invocation! "The act or form of calling for the assistance or presence of some superior being; earnest and solemn entreaty; esp., prayer offered to a divine being... ...(Law) A call or summons; especially, a judicial call, demand, or order." Wherin an action is called for, and aquired in representation of the belief (be it deity, or belief in "health" or "humanity" or "aid") - this is basically the opposite of a prayer, taking your fate in your hands, and acting upon your beliefs. This is truly useful - because by using invocations - (or "actions," we might as well be talking about "The Will To Power" here) - our politicians and governors show us EXACTLY WHAT THEY STAND FOR. i.e. - If a person prays for peace and democracy, and proceeds to enact a war with authoritarian manifestation - then we can see they have no faith in "peace and democracy," and their true "Will To Power," or invocation is actualy war and removal of freedoms. (To further explain "Will To Power," which means, "actions are gods, follow them, and follow them through.")
So, in summons, a summary:
Prayers serve our beliefs (God, the world, karma, or otherwise) by allowing humanity to meditate (read: question) on our interactions in this world.
Invocations serve our beliefs by showing us what they really are, and allowing humanity to meditate (read:question) on our actions.
Prayers serve the future, invocations serve the present.
...Now! Here is where this all tied into religion, and where the majority of you religious people may think negatively. So I'm going to be as blunt as possible, because you're only going to be able to understand the following or you won't at all.
Religions deconstruct and take control over our unique human ability to control and define our belief systems. Either in dogma, the written word of truth wherin what is acceptable belief and what actions one may take in order to pursue such beliefs in this world are defined and booby-trapped with a sick little invention called "sin," wherein a "true" believer is condemned to never fall outside the systemic lines of the doctrine in pursing ones own beliefs or meditating on - questioning - faith. Thus religious dogma subverts belief systems by controlling what men can pray for: dogma can also be spoken instruction either autonomously (i.e. a priest or pope) or popularly expressed (i.e. the general consensus of a congregation.) And in the case of Islam, this organized religion will actually control exactly what the "believer" (ha! - sap) will pray for.
Notice - this ^ is all about prayer. It is my belief that religions completely assimilate autonomy, and thus consume the ability of the "believer" by acting without rival consequence (no one can question that "absolute truth" of doctrine, they can only ponder it's meaning - these "organized believers" can not even question doctrines' validity - so what I mean here is without opposition) of the commanding religious officials and doctrines. Autonomous action - or invocation, is removed completely. The organized believer is subject to the definitions of capability set up by their religion. The organized believer is also thus suspect to act accordingly to the pre-concieved actions set up by their belief system - bomb a mosque, pay your taxes, be suspect or your neighbors, and fearful of your own desires - ...the organized "believer" in religion - does he really believe in anything at all or does he just follow?
And at last, I shall reveal my modus operandi:
Yes, I believe religions remove beliefs. What religions call, "belief" is nothing of the sort, it's a simulacrum of faith - a false product of a copy of a copy of a copy... Thus they remove human ability to truly meditate (or question, inquire) and observe the state of humanity - further removing our ability to set up higher qualifications of homeostasis and equality in objects of power and organization than those set up by the pittiful criterion set up by religions wither in conceptions of humanity or constructions of nature (Imagine if religions controlled the sciences!! Unthinkable!)
What does this all mean? Religions are anti-human. They remove the naturaly human ability and responsibility to hold true beliefs (those which are tested, or continually questioned.) So if religious beliefs are impossible or inevitably corrupt - then what?
No one ever said an atheist can't believe in anything. Atheism only means the refusal of deity - after that has been established and taken to hold true, an atheist is free to form further homeostatic and presently relevant ideas, prayers, and invocations all in the name of humanity and our planet - not God, not bhudda, not Muhammad, not peaches and creme or AK-47's.
My hypothesis - is atheism the only relevant belief system?
(This has been a stupendously spontaneous post, thanks all who went through and read it all.)
If you don't care then you cannot pretend to boil down everything that I believe down into your own little campaign slogan. It seems that you have a habit of oversimplifying things when they are not really that simple.
I will try the same thing. It seems from your answers that you voted for John Kerry. You must support "killing people for religion" as well even though you seem to subscribe to the religion of atheism. It's clear to me on this board that atheism is, in itself, a religion and has a tendency to show the same amount of close minded intolerance as its high and mighty subscribers like to accuse others of.
Did I get it right? If I'm wrong I apologize. I wouldn't want to try to boil all of your belifs down into such simplicity. I doubt you would be willing to say the same though.
Am I wrong????
You are quite correct (see I can't even use the word right (-: ) that there may be a number of reasons for not voting for Kerry or Jr...no doubt...but Bush's reason for being in power is simply due the way he was able to get the US Christians bought into his lies....and for those that could see through them and still voted for him....well?!?!
.....oh an no offense felt..and hope you don't get any from my thoughts....truely.
You are quite correct (see I can't even use the word right (-: ) that there may be a number of reasons for not voting for Kerry or Jr...no doubt...but Bush's reason for being in power is simply due the way he was able to get the US Christians bought into his lies....and for those that could see through them and still voted for him....well?!?!
.....oh an no offense felt..and hope you don't get any from my thoughts....truely.
I don't take offense at all. I would like to add that Bush would probably not be in power today had there been a campaign run for another candidate in the election.
I bet this thread is interesting, but I need to get some work done, so I'll just say that I see where the OP is coming from, and once again I'll say...
Religion does more harm than good (though a little faith is okay).
DO UNTO OTHERS...OR JUST DO THE RIGHT THING and you'll be fine!
My mom is STRICTLY Catholic...I mean, she actually believes that everything in the Bible truely happened and there are no other "Gods" but her known God. But as an educated and increasingly experienced young man of 33...I'm officially agnostic now (don't tell my mom!).
There may be a God, there may not be, I'd like there to be a Heaven that will accept me, but if there's not that's fine, because I'm not going to Hell (if there is one). Besides, who wants to be anywhere for all of eternity? If I could go to Heaven long enough to see the end of my great-grandchildren's lives, that's enough for me! Otherwise, let my soul burn out or pop it into another body who has a fighting chance at a good life.
19 Pearl Jam shows and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
Oh! It's good that this discussion came up. Running yesterday, this thought occured to me when I was seriously considering - and swimming in - "Right In Two" off Tool's new album:
I also pitty religious people, because...
...Beliefs offer humans two unique things among the animal kingdom:
Prayer - by which we choose the power of belief (be it deity or otherwise) to act upon the world on our behalf. This is a useful tool for humans, for it gives us patience - prayer is asking for something in response to something, thus it may take time, and it must remain to be seen - the human must let it be, and see it happen (whatever was prayed for) sometime in their future.
Invocation! "The act or form of calling for the assistance or presence of some superior being; earnest and solemn entreaty; esp., prayer offered to a divine being... ...(Law) A call or summons; especially, a judicial call, demand, or order." Wherin an action is called for, and aquired in representation of the belief (be it deity, or belief in "health" or "humanity" or "aid") - this is basically the opposite of a prayer, taking your fate in your hands, and acting upon your beliefs. This is truly useful - because by using invocations - (or "actions," we might as well be talking about "The Will To Power" here) - our politicians and governors show us EXACTLY WHAT THEY STAND FOR. i.e. - If a person prays for peace and democracy, and proceeds to enact a war with authoritarian manifestation - then we can see they have no faith in "peace and democracy," and their true "Will To Power," or invocation is actualy war and removal of freedoms. (To further explain "Will To Power," which means, "actions are gods, follow them, and follow them through.")
So, in summons, a summary:
Prayers serve our beliefs (God, the world, karma, or otherwise) by allowing humanity to meditate (read: question) on our interactions in this world.
Invocations serve our beliefs by showing us what they really are, and allowing humanity to meditate (read:question) on our actions.
Prayers serve the future, invocations serve the present.
...Now! Here is where this all tied into religion, and where the majority of you religious people may think negatively. So I'm going to be as blunt as possible, because you're only going to be able to understand the following or you won't at all.
Religions deconstruct and take control over our unique human ability to control and define our belief systems. Either in dogma, the written word of truth wherin what is acceptable belief and what actions one may take in order to pursue such beliefs in this world are defined and booby-trapped with a sick little invention called "sin," wherein a "true" believer is condemned to never fall outside the systemic lines of the doctrine in pursing ones own beliefs or meditating on - questioning - faith. Thus religious dogma subverts belief systems by controlling what men can pray for: dogma can also be spoken instruction either autonomously (i.e. a priest or pope) or popularly expressed (i.e. the general consensus of a congregation.) And in the case of Islam, this organized religion will actually control exactly what the "believer" (ha! - sap) will pray for.
Notice - this ^ is all about prayer. It is my belief that religions completely assimilate autonomy, and thus consume the ability of the "believer" by acting without rival consequence (no one can question that "absolute truth" of doctrine, they can only ponder it's meaning - these "organized believers" can not even question doctrines' validity - so what I mean here is without opposition) of the commanding religious officials and doctrines. Autonomous action - or invocation, is removed completely. The organized believer is subject to the definitions of capability set up by their religion. The organized believer is also thus suspect to act accordingly to the pre-concieved actions set up by their belief system - bomb a mosque, pay your taxes, be suspect or your neighbors, and fearful of your own desires - ...the organized "believer" in religion - does he really believe in anything at all or does he just follow?
And at last, I shall reveal my modus operandi:
Yes, I believe religions remove beliefs. What religions call, "belief" is nothing of the sort, it's a simulacrum of faith - a false product of a copy of a copy of a copy... Thus they remove human ability to truly meditate (or question, inquire) and observe the state of humanity - further removing our ability to set up higher qualifications of homeostasis and equality in objects of power and organization than those set up by the pittiful criterion set up by religions wither in conceptions of humanity or constructions of nature (Imagine if religions controlled the sciences!! Unthinkable!)
What does this all mean? Religions are anti-human. They remove the naturaly human ability and responsibility to hold true beliefs (those which are tested, or continually questioned.) So if religious beliefs are impossible or inevitably corrupt - then what?
No one ever said an atheist can't believe in anything. Atheism only means the refusal of deity - after that has been established and taken to hold true, an atheist is free to form further homeostatic and presently relevant ideas, prayers, and invocations all in the name of humanity and our planet - not God, not bhudda, not Muhammad, not peaches and creme or AK-47's.
My hypothesis - is atheism the only relevant belief system?
(This has been a stupendously spontaneous post, thanks all who went through and read it all.)
I think this was an awesome post. I love your understanding of prayer and invocation. People sometimes misunderstand the serious power of invoking/naming, and of patiently meditating on something. Or the psychological power of letting go with the ego, and calling forth our full intelligences--including those that are far beyond our conscious awareness.
Regarding religious dogma, It's quite relevent to keep in mind that humans are where they are on their evolutionary journey. The majority of people at this time are tribal minded and not yet able to assert their true individuality beyond the tribal mindset. The estimated psychological figures say it's as high as 95% of us.
What most people don't realise is that as children, our level of awareness has us in a state of hypnotic trance where we are literally programmed by what our parents teach us. We take on those scripts to be the true reality of life. "you can't do this", "you can't do that", "what are you, stupid?", "stop your whining", etc, etc. We act "religiously" on those scripts and there are few ways to be immersed in the tribal mindset and living inside the box and to be able to glimpse a wider perspective of our lives. True spirituality is most definitely the path in doing so. Most of us don't realise we are psychologically vastly larger than who we identify with as ourselves. Religion is serving a purpose for now. As we awaken, dogma is phasing itself out.
I also agree that atheists are as potent in invoking as any religious person. They have to be willing to invoke, though, and to believe in it's power. Being bombarded with fear and denying our own power is the opposite of calling upon our power and higher powers (unconscious, maybe, collective unconscious) available to us in creating.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I think this was an awesome post. I love your understanding of prayer and invocation. People sometimes misunderstand the serious power of invoking/naming, and of patiently meditating on something. Or the psychological power of letting go with the ego, and calling forth our full intelligences--including those that are far beyond our conscious awareness.
I love your generally positive/supportive posts - and I'm not just saying that about this specific one.
Regarding religious dogma, It's quite relevent to keep in mind that humans are where they are on their evolutionary journey. The majority of people at this time are tribal minded and not yet able to assert their true individuality beyond the tribal mindset. The estimated psychological figures say it's as high as 95% of us.
No way. I contend that the majority of people at this time are tribal minded - because of their culture. Our mindset's are not innate. I'm a firm proponent of the "Tabula Rosa" theory of human development - we're born blank slate, then we learn what the rest of our fellow humans have learned. Later, creativity sets in, and the universe is at our command - so I don't think this "tribal mindset" is too serious of a problem, nor is it innate - just making that clear.
What most people don't realise is that as children, our level of awareness has us in a state of hypnotic trance where we are literally programmed by what our parents teach us. We take on those scripts to be the true reality of life. "you can't do this", "you can't do that", "what are you, stupid?", "stop your whining", etc, etc. We act "religiously" on those scripts and there are few ways to be immersed in the tribal mindset and living inside the box and to be able to glimpse a wider perspective of our lives. True spirituality is most definitely the path in doing so. Most of us don't realise we are psychologically vastly larger than who we identify with as ourselves. Religion is serving a purpose for now. As we awaken, dogma is phasing itself out.
Right... religion is only serving a purpose for decadence, it is a degenerative thing.
This reminds me of a little tune by a band called Bad Religion, that I'd like to share,
"blacktop pavement cover me
like a chemical reaction or a steam roller
spreading randomly
there's a distant buzz and low frequency
it tickles my ear, rumbles under my feet
and it shakes the leaves off of every tree (violently)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
institution on the hill
like a beacon in the mind of an ancestor
to ignite a people's will
there's a shadowed stain on the west facade
it has spread like decay to enshroud the fraud
and the descendants find it oh so odd
(oh so odd)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
grave memorial hewn white stone
like the comforting caress of a mother
or a friend you've always known
it evokes such pain and significance
what was once is reduced to remembrance
and the generations pass without recompense
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease"
I also agree that atheists are as potent in invoking as any religious person. They have to be willing to invoke, though, and to believe in it's power. Being bombarded with fear and denying our own power is the opposite of calling upon our power and higher powers (unconscious, maybe, collective unconscious) available to us in creating.
I love your generally positive/supportive posts - and I'm not just saying that about this specific one.
Thank-you.
No way.
I'm not sure where this is coming from. I realise the amazing potential we all have right in this moment--in the "infinite now"--and yet, whether cultural or otherwise, it's pretty clear that people are not claiming their power. It is what it is. I dp not imply, nor do I think this is innate. What is innate is our potential, waiting potently for us to use it. What is innate is the collective unconscious and the superconscious, which whisper to us about empowerment, when we can quiet the scripts that run through our minds.
... I don't think this "tribal mindset" is too serious of a problem, nor is it innate - just making that clear.
I agree.
Right... religion is only serving a purpose for decadence, it is a degenerative thing.
Religion is serving a purpose for people for whatever their subjective reasons are. And I'm sure we can all imagine reasons looking at it "objectively". When we learn skills to meet such needs in healthier ways, the dogma and authoritarian approach to religion will fall by the wayside. And not a moment sooner.
This reminds me of a little tune by a band called Bad Religion, that I'd like to share,
"blacktop pavement cover me
like a chemical reaction or a steam roller
spreading randomly
there's a distant buzz and low frequency
it tickles my ear, rumbles under my feet
and it shakes the leaves off of every tree (violently)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
institution on the hill
like a beacon in the mind of an ancestor
to ignite a people's will
there's a shadowed stain on the west facade
it has spread like decay to enshroud the fraud
and the descendants find it oh so odd
(oh so odd)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
grave memorial hewn white stone
like the comforting caress of a mother
or a friend you've always known
it evokes such pain and significance
what was once is reduced to remembrance
and the generations pass without recompense
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
Thanks for sharing. Do you agree that everything must cease? I'm wondering because of your username. I thought you might be able to comprehend eternity.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Thanks for sharing. Do you agree that everything must cease? I'm wondering because of your username. I thought you might be able to comprehend eternity.
"What pretension! ...Everlasting peace...
Everything must cease."
I think this chorus in particular is about belief in "the after-life." When people choose to believe in an after-life they run the risk of subduing the events of real life. You can choose to sin now because you'll be forgiven later, you can choose to go to war because you'll have something to look forward to when you die, you can choose to ignore unsanitary conditions and disease because there is eternal glory on the other side - "What pretension!" I know religions teach preparation - being good now so that you'll have a better after-life. But since "after-life" is so absurd a concept, the organized believers have a very hard time indeed conceptualizing it on a daily basis - concentrating on every action they make and how it will effect them in the after-life (such a insane realm of the unreal) is very difficult, and often overlooked.
Everything must cease - that is decadence! What pretension that everything must meet an after-life, death, a final judgment! This is the decadence of religion, after-life.
(I love Nietzsche... obviously.)
So, I - I would wish it all away. That religion must cease, yet knowing things in general do not "cease," they become fragile, ripe with decay, decadent withholding the Markovian process - "In effect, the state of the process at time is conditionally independent of the history of the process before time , given the state of the process at time." - in other words, things do not cease, but are conditionaly reborn again in accord with time, proving themselves or after-time (reflection/meditation) denying their existance as current time/trends evolve... So what is decadent - religion - will surely show it. What is eternal - love, for instance - will surely prove being again and again. This is the sort of divine (innate) property of definitions, of human concepts - and as such atheists hold a much greater reposnsibility to prove their current definitions (and not have them proven for them) lest they succumb to the decadence of ineloquence of their time (which is always retreating, and being anew - current.)
(Personally, it's becoming more and more obvious why religions just can't breed such proper definitions - you truly have to think outside the box to come up with this stuff - you've got to be able to just, "flow" with no interuption of dogmatic morality or fearful inquesition - you gotta believe in yourself to believe in the thing's you speak.)
So can I comprehend eternity? ...
"The greatest weight. -- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?"
from Nietzsche's The Gay Science.
I would say, the greatest blessing, is the eternal reoccurrence of thought - that we can rely on our selves to conceive and maintain our peace. That is free will, something a religious man can never have.
That the eternal confirmation of life is current.
A new morning, anew...
Eternity, it is precious and requires humans to communicate life's existence and meaning without the bounds of morals/which breed false morality.
Confining? OR defining!
Back to invocation, of actions, we all see our actions. If we knew here - that life is all - that after-life is unknown/undefined and inavlid... then what terrible guilt would man have over acting stupidly? or... What great glory would be seen within human interactions which "will" serendipitously? If life became eternal, now... (infinity now) ...then man would have to own his actions, for mankind, for the benefit of all gods/deities/beliefs/believers! - Lest man assume false humanity, forgoing his freedom of will and introspective interaction and consume religion, and then be nothing more than beast of burden, follower of his retribution, an "organized believer," of fate and an end to things... living for an after-life. Yuck!
By the way - all of this has just become spontaneously clear to me, thanks for keeping me interested. It's not lke I'm copying and pasting - this is rather free form... like Jack Kerouac.
If there is a God
I know he likes to rock
He likes his loud guitars
And his spiders from Mars
And if there is a God
I know she's watching me
She likes what she sees
But there's trouble on the breeze
Who are you this time?
Are you one of us flying blind?
Because I'm down here throwing stones
While you're so far from home
And if there is a God
I know they're on TV
Their the spies with bedroom eyes
Who cowers in our sky
Who are you this time?
Are you one of us flying blind?
Because I'm down here throwing stones
While you're so far from home
And If there is a God
If there is a God
"What pretension! ...Everlasting peace...
Everything must cease."
I think this chorus in particular is about belief in "the after-life." When people choose to believe in an after-life they run the risk of subduing the events of real life. You can choose to sin now because you'll be forgiven later, you can choose to go to war because you'll have something to look forward to when you die, you can choose to ignore unsanitary conditions and disease because there is eternal glory on the other side - "What pretension!" I know religions teach preparation - being good now so that you'll have a better after-life. But since "after-life" is so absurd a concept, the organized believers have a very hard time indeed conceptualizing it on a daily basis - concentrating on every action they make and how it will effect them in the after-life (such a insane realm of the unreal) is very difficult, and often overlooked.
Everything must cease - that is decadence! What pretension that everything must meet an after-life, death, a final judgment! This is the decadence of religion, after-life.
(I love Nietzsche... obviously.)
So, I - I would wish it all away. That religion must cease, yet knowing things in general do not "cease," they become fragile, ripe with decay, decadent withholding the Markovian process - "In effect, the state of the process at time is conditionally independent of the history of the process before time , given the state of the process at time." - in other words, things do not cease, but are conditionaly reborn again in accord with time, proving themselves or after-time (reflection/meditation) denying their existance as current time/trends evolve... So what is decadent - religion - will surely show it. What is eternal - love, for instance - will surely prove being again and again. This is the sort of divine (innate) property of definitions, of human concepts - and as such atheists hold a much greater reposnsibility to prove their current definitions (and not have them proven for them) lest they succumb to the decadence of ineloquence of their time (which is always retreating, and being anew - current.)
(Personally, it's becoming more and more obvious why religions just can't breed such proper definitions - you truly have to think outside the box to come up with this stuff - you've got to be able to just, "flow" with no interuption of dogmatic morality or fearful inquesition - you gotta believe in yourself to believe in the thing's you speak.)
So can I comprehend eternity? ...
"The greatest weight. -- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?"
from Nietzsche's The Gay Science.
I would say, the greatest blessing, is the eternal reoccurrence of thought - that we can rely on our selves to conceive and maintain our peace. That is free will, something a religious man can never have.
That the eternal confirmation of life is current.
A new morning, anew...
Eternity, it is precious and requires humans to communicate life's existence and meaning without the bounds of morals/which breed false morality.
Confining? OR defining!
Back to invocation, of actions, we all see our actions. If we knew here - that life is all - that after-life is unknown/undefined and inavlid... then what terrible guilt would man have over acting stupidly? or... What great glory would be seen within human interactions which "will" serendipitously? If life became eternal, now... (infinity now) ...then man would have to own his actions, for mankind, for the benefit of all gods/deities/beliefs/believers! - Lest man assume false humanity, forgoing his freedom of will and introspective interaction and consume religion, and then be nothing more than beast of burden, follower of his retribution, an "organized believer," of fate and an end to things... living for an after-life. Yuck!
By the way - all of this has just become spontaneously clear to me, thanks for keeping me interested. It's not lke I'm copying and pasting - this is rather free form... like Jack Kerouac.
Oh, okay, I thought you might realise that our consciousness is always in the eternal or infinite now. That which is eternal does not come and go, but rather it just IS.
As for this....: "I would say, the greatest blessing, is the eternal reoccurrence of thought - that we can rely on our selves to conceive and maintain our peace. That is free will, something a religious man can never have."
.... I look at it differently. Everyone has free will. There are different levels of consciousness, though. I've lived through many myself. Each one is as valid a part of the puzzle as the next one is. All is experience, good, bad or indifferent. If one is fortunate to be able to see from a "higher" station, and understand advanced ideas, one is not "right" or "better", one is an evolutionary front runner.
As we raise our consciousness and come to understand more and more the infinite view, yes, one definitely comes to own their actions. One becomes very aware of one's creations and that we are accountable for our every movement eternally.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I haven't thought about death since i was 12 years old. I was hiking in the Canadian Rockies and something happened...i won't go into details...but simply put i realized that i was part of something that i would never be able to understand, and so i should go on living enjoying the little things and not worry about the unexplainable. No this sounds like i have my shit together...trust me my life is constantly a mess...but as far as that particular part of it, i'm OK
I've definitely seen atheism-as-religion close minded intolerance rampant on this board, and in life, bigtime. High and mighty intolerance reveals itself as high and mighty intolerance, period, whatever the basis for it is.
Let me tell a story, and this is the truth. Today a christian evangelist knocked on my door with a troop of young girls from his worship group. He took out a bible and said, "Good morning. I'm reading extracts from the bible to people today". Naturally I was immediately thinking "Oh please piss off and leave me alone, I'm barely awake" but I was polite and said ok. He then proceeded to open the bible to Genesis chapter 1 and read aloud "In the beginning, god created the heaven's and the earth". He then looked at me and said "would you agree with that statement?". I very politely said no I would not cause I'm an atheist and seemed taken aback at my frank and completely open answer and said "Hmmm... that's a very assured answer from someone so young".
Naturally this bothered me. I am nearly 18 years of age, I decided years ago that I felt no need for faith in any biblical god in my life and yet this man was questioning my sincerity based on my age. HOWEVER, I still stood there politely while he questioned my reasons for not believing in God. Trust me, I am a quick-tempered guy and this was a display of superhuman tolerance on my part. I refrained from making any smart-assed "opiate of the masses" comments or the like because I wanted to remain civil. When he added that often people find god later in life because of events in their life and effectively implied that i'd feel different I felt genuinely insulted and patronised by a man who had knocked on my door at 9:30 in the morning to tell me that my diminuitive age in relation to his meant that his grasp on MY spirituality was better than mine.
STILL I listened politely before saying "Maybe one day I'll feel a need in my life for a god, but that day isn't today" and he left. Believe me, atheists can be capable of tolerance and frankly, thats about as open-minded about religion as I'm gonna be right now. And you might notice that through all this I didn't question his reasons for believing in God or for feeling the need to interrupt people's private affairs to spread his beliefs. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt and then let him go and knock on my neighbours doors.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I haven't thought about death since i was 12 years old. I was hiking in the Canadian Rockies and something happened...i won't go into details...but simply put i realized that i was part of something that i would never be able to understand, and so i should go on living enjoying the little things and not worry about the unexplainable. No this sounds like i have my shit together...trust me my life is constantly a mess...but as far as that particular part of it, i'm OK
Let me tell a story, and this is the truth. Today a christian evangelist knocked on my door with a troop of young girls from his worship group. He took out a bible and said, "Good morning. I'm reading extracts from the bible to people today". Naturally I was immediately thinking "Oh please piss off and leave me alone, I'm barely awake" but I was polite and said ok. He then proceeded to open the bible to Genesis chapter 1 and read aloud "In the beginning, god created the heaven's and the earth". He then looked at me and said "would you agree with that statement?". I very politely said no I would not cause I'm an atheist and seemed taken aback at my frank and completely open answer and said "Hmmm... that's a very assured answer from someone so young".
Naturally this bothered me. I am nearly 18 years of age, I decided years ago that I felt no need for faith in any biblical god in my life and yet this man was questioning my sincerity based on my age. HOWEVER, I still stood there politely while he questioned my reasons for not believing in God. Trust me, I am a quick-tempered guy and this was a display of superhuman tolerance on my part. I refrained from making any smart-assed "opiate of the masses" comments or the like because I wanted to remain civil. When he added that often people find god later in life because of events in their life and effectively implied that i'd feel different I felt genuinely insulted and patronised by a man who had knocked on my door at 9:30 in the morning to tell me that my diminuitive age in relation to his meant that his grasp on MY spirituality was better than mine.
STILL I listened politely before saying "Maybe one day I'll feel a need in my life for a god, but that day isn't today" and he left. Believe me, atheists can be capable of tolerance and frankly, thats about as open-minded about religion as I'm gonna be right now. And you might notice that through all this I didn't question his reasons for believing in God or for feeling the need to interrupt people's private affairs to spread his beliefs. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt and then let him go and knock on my neighbours doors.
It sounds like you are not one who practises high and mighty intolerance. Good for you. I realise there are those who do not out there. My 23 year old daughter is one. She is quite sensitive and respectful to others and their beliefs. It's the psychologically healthy way to be. It will serve you well if you can continue to let the biases of others stay squarely where they lie--on the shoulders of that person and very much off of yourself by not engaging/internalising them yourself, as your story displayed.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It sounds like you are not one who practises high and mighty intolerance. Good for you. I realise there are those who do not out there. My 23 year old daughter is one. She is quite sensitive and respectful to others and their beliefs. It's the psychologically healthy way to be. It will serve you well if you can continue to let the biases of others stay squarely where they lie--on the shoulders of that person and very much off of yourself by not engaging/internalising them yourself, as your story displayed.
I just thought I should establish this as a few of my posts here lead some people to think I was intolerant of all religous people. Maybe I was just in a bad mood yesterday
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I just thought I should establish this as a few of my posts here lead some people to think I was intolerant of all religous people. Maybe I was just in a bad mood yesterday
Sometimes it just takes a few posts to see what people really think. You're alright with me.
Comments
Yes it does matter. You seem to think it's so easy to boil down all of my beliefs into a campaign slogan. You claim to know so much about me, so I ask again, what religion do I follow?
When people support killing in the name of religion, they are accountable for supporting killing in the name of religion.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
There is a huge difference between faith and Christianity. Having faith in yourself and the people around you is a good thing. Having to follow dogmatic practises that tell you what to have faith in is a huge problem in the world. The problem with religion is that it generally isn't elastic. It has trouble changing with the times. In the long run, religion changes with society. In the short run, it doesn't and this is where all of the conflict comes from. Antiquated "rules" that were written thousands of years ago still spark hate and ignorance. I would even argue that the concept of an omniscient "god" is an antiquated notion in this day and age.
Either way, it's not the beautiful ideals of religion that causes problems. Treating others as you'd like to be treated is not causing war. Treating our parents with respect is not causing war. Being faithful to one's spouse is not causing a war. Loving all people is not causing a war. Trying to live up to the ideals of an enlightened being like Jesus is not causing a war. It's the unenlightened nature of or flaws in humans that are causing war, hatred and ongoing problems while abusing the name and spirit of religion in the process.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
you say your not an athiest....and from your answer it appears you voted for Jr......jr went for oil and to get the evil dangerous muslims.
If you don't care then you cannot pretend to boil down everything that I believe down into your own little campaign slogan. It seems that you have a habit of oversimplifying things when they are not really that simple.
I will try the same thing. It seems from your answers that you voted for John Kerry. You must support "killing people for religion" as well even though you seem to subscribe to the religion of atheism. It's clear to me on this board that atheism is, in itself, a religion and has a tendency to show the same amount of close minded intolerance as its high and mighty subscribers like to accuse others of.
Did I get it right? If I'm wrong I apologize. I wouldn't want to try to boil all of your belifs down into such simplicity. I doubt you would be willing to say the same though.
Everything that you mentioned are not religious ideals. They are human ideals. If you think that the above mentioned virtues weren't around before somebody created god and religion, then you truly are naive. I exhibit each of those virtues that you mentioned, yet I have never participated in an organized religion. It just irks me that some people need a reason to treat other people well. You shouldn't need a god or religion to tell you how to treat people.
yeah, i doubt pol pot was a big church goer...i just find it kinda weird that our church-loving government officially supported his regime until the mid-90's...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Sometimes people do things that they are not supposed to do. If someone uses religion as a reason to treat people well, why does it really matter as long as they are treating people well? The reason people do things shouldn't irk you as much as the actions.
The highest ideals that we humans can fathom are our highest ideals, regardless of how we choose to define and attribute them. People who practise religions are human.
The fact remains that the ideals I spoke of are the ideals of numerous religions.
I wonder why the purposes of other people and how they define their highest ideals would irk you. You say "you shouldn't need..." . Does it bother you that people see things differently than you, or that people might have different needs?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I also pitty religious people, because...
...Beliefs offer humans two unique things among the animal kingdom:
Prayer - by which we choose the power of belief (be it deity or otherwise) to act upon the world on our behalf. This is a useful tool for humans, for it gives us patience - prayer is asking for something in response to something, thus it may take time, and it must remain to be seen - the human must let it be, and see it happen (whatever was prayed for) sometime in their future.
and, my personal favorite,
Invocation! "The act or form of calling for the assistance or presence of some superior being; earnest and solemn entreaty; esp., prayer offered to a divine being... ...(Law) A call or summons; especially, a judicial call, demand, or order." Wherin an action is called for, and aquired in representation of the belief (be it deity, or belief in "health" or "humanity" or "aid") - this is basically the opposite of a prayer, taking your fate in your hands, and acting upon your beliefs. This is truly useful - because by using invocations - (or "actions," we might as well be talking about "The Will To Power" here) - our politicians and governors show us EXACTLY WHAT THEY STAND FOR. i.e. - If a person prays for peace and democracy, and proceeds to enact a war with authoritarian manifestation - then we can see they have no faith in "peace and democracy," and their true "Will To Power," or invocation is actualy war and removal of freedoms. (To further explain "Will To Power," which means, "actions are gods, follow them, and follow them through.")
So, in summons, a summary:
Prayers serve our beliefs (God, the world, karma, or otherwise) by allowing humanity to meditate (read: question) on our interactions in this world.
Invocations serve our beliefs by showing us what they really are, and allowing humanity to meditate (read:question) on our actions.
Prayers serve the future, invocations serve the present.
...Now! Here is where this all tied into religion, and where the majority of you religious people may think negatively. So I'm going to be as blunt as possible, because you're only going to be able to understand the following or you won't at all.
Religions deconstruct and take control over our unique human ability to control and define our belief systems. Either in dogma, the written word of truth wherin what is acceptable belief and what actions one may take in order to pursue such beliefs in this world are defined and booby-trapped with a sick little invention called "sin," wherein a "true" believer is condemned to never fall outside the systemic lines of the doctrine in pursing ones own beliefs or meditating on - questioning - faith. Thus religious dogma subverts belief systems by controlling what men can pray for: dogma can also be spoken instruction either autonomously (i.e. a priest or pope) or popularly expressed (i.e. the general consensus of a congregation.) And in the case of Islam, this organized religion will actually control exactly what the "believer" (ha! - sap) will pray for.
Notice - this ^ is all about prayer. It is my belief that religions completely assimilate autonomy, and thus consume the ability of the "believer" by acting without rival consequence (no one can question that "absolute truth" of doctrine, they can only ponder it's meaning - these "organized believers" can not even question doctrines' validity - so what I mean here is without opposition) of the commanding religious officials and doctrines. Autonomous action - or invocation, is removed completely. The organized believer is subject to the definitions of capability set up by their religion. The organized believer is also thus suspect to act accordingly to the pre-concieved actions set up by their belief system - bomb a mosque, pay your taxes, be suspect or your neighbors, and fearful of your own desires - ...the organized "believer" in religion - does he really believe in anything at all or does he just follow?
And at last, I shall reveal my modus operandi:
Yes, I believe religions remove beliefs. What religions call, "belief" is nothing of the sort, it's a simulacrum of faith - a false product of a copy of a copy of a copy... Thus they remove human ability to truly meditate (or question, inquire) and observe the state of humanity - further removing our ability to set up higher qualifications of homeostasis and equality in objects of power and organization than those set up by the pittiful criterion set up by religions wither in conceptions of humanity or constructions of nature (Imagine if religions controlled the sciences!! Unthinkable!)
What does this all mean? Religions are anti-human. They remove the naturaly human ability and responsibility to hold true beliefs (those which are tested, or continually questioned.) So if religious beliefs are impossible or inevitably corrupt - then what?
No one ever said an atheist can't believe in anything. Atheism only means the refusal of deity - after that has been established and taken to hold true, an atheist is free to form further homeostatic and presently relevant ideas, prayers, and invocations all in the name of humanity and our planet - not God, not bhudda, not Muhammad, not peaches and creme or AK-47's.
My hypothesis - is atheism the only relevant belief system?
(This has been a stupendously spontaneous post, thanks all who went through and read it all.)
Am I wrong????
You are quite correct (see I can't even use the word right (-: ) that there may be a number of reasons for not voting for Kerry or Jr...no doubt...but Bush's reason for being in power is simply due the way he was able to get the US Christians bought into his lies....and for those that could see through them and still voted for him....well?!?!
.....oh an no offense felt..and hope you don't get any from my thoughts....truely.
I don't take offense at all. I would like to add that Bush would probably not be in power today had there been a campaign run for another candidate in the election.
Religion does more harm than good (though a little faith is okay).
DO UNTO OTHERS...OR JUST DO THE RIGHT THING and you'll be fine!
My mom is STRICTLY Catholic...I mean, she actually believes that everything in the Bible truely happened and there are no other "Gods" but her known God.
There may be a God, there may not be, I'd like there to be a Heaven that will accept me, but if there's not that's fine, because I'm not going to Hell (if there is one). Besides, who wants to be anywhere for all of eternity? If I could go to Heaven long enough to see the end of my great-grandchildren's lives, that's enough for me! Otherwise, let my soul burn out or pop it into another body who has a fighting chance at a good life.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
Regarding religious dogma, It's quite relevent to keep in mind that humans are where they are on their evolutionary journey. The majority of people at this time are tribal minded and not yet able to assert their true individuality beyond the tribal mindset. The estimated psychological figures say it's as high as 95% of us.
What most people don't realise is that as children, our level of awareness has us in a state of hypnotic trance where we are literally programmed by what our parents teach us. We take on those scripts to be the true reality of life. "you can't do this", "you can't do that", "what are you, stupid?", "stop your whining", etc, etc. We act "religiously" on those scripts and there are few ways to be immersed in the tribal mindset and living inside the box and to be able to glimpse a wider perspective of our lives. True spirituality is most definitely the path in doing so. Most of us don't realise we are psychologically vastly larger than who we identify with as ourselves. Religion is serving a purpose for now. As we awaken, dogma is phasing itself out.
I also agree that atheists are as potent in invoking as any religious person. They have to be willing to invoke, though, and to believe in it's power. Being bombarded with fear and denying our own power is the opposite of calling upon our power and higher powers (unconscious, maybe, collective unconscious) available to us in creating.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I love your generally positive/supportive posts - and I'm not just saying that about this specific one.
No way. I contend that the majority of people at this time are tribal minded - because of their culture. Our mindset's are not innate. I'm a firm proponent of the "Tabula Rosa" theory of human development - we're born blank slate, then we learn what the rest of our fellow humans have learned. Later, creativity sets in, and the universe is at our command - so I don't think this "tribal mindset" is too serious of a problem, nor is it innate - just making that clear.
Right... religion is only serving a purpose for decadence, it is a degenerative thing.
This reminds me of a little tune by a band called Bad Religion, that I'd like to share,
"blacktop pavement cover me
like a chemical reaction or a steam roller
spreading randomly
there's a distant buzz and low frequency
it tickles my ear, rumbles under my feet
and it shakes the leaves off of every tree (violently)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
institution on the hill
like a beacon in the mind of an ancestor
to ignite a people's will
there's a shadowed stain on the west facade
it has spread like decay to enshroud the fraud
and the descendants find it oh so odd
(oh so odd)
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease
grave memorial hewn white stone
like the comforting caress of a mother
or a friend you've always known
it evokes such pain and significance
what was once is reduced to remembrance
and the generations pass without recompense
what pretension! everlasting peace
everything must cease"
I'm not sure where this is coming from. I realise the amazing potential we all have right in this moment--in the "infinite now"--and yet, whether cultural or otherwise, it's pretty clear that people are not claiming their power. It is what it is. I dp not imply, nor do I think this is innate. What is innate is our potential, waiting potently for us to use it. What is innate is the collective unconscious and the superconscious, which whisper to us about empowerment, when we can quiet the scripts that run through our minds.
I agree.
Religion is serving a purpose for people for whatever their subjective reasons are. And I'm sure we can all imagine reasons looking at it "objectively". When we learn skills to meet such needs in healthier ways, the dogma and authoritarian approach to religion will fall by the wayside. And not a moment sooner.
Thanks for sharing. Do you agree that everything must cease? I'm wondering because of your username. I thought you might be able to comprehend eternity.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
"What pretension! ...Everlasting peace...
Everything must cease."
I think this chorus in particular is about belief in "the after-life." When people choose to believe in an after-life they run the risk of subduing the events of real life. You can choose to sin now because you'll be forgiven later, you can choose to go to war because you'll have something to look forward to when you die, you can choose to ignore unsanitary conditions and disease because there is eternal glory on the other side - "What pretension!" I know religions teach preparation - being good now so that you'll have a better after-life. But since "after-life" is so absurd a concept, the organized believers have a very hard time indeed conceptualizing it on a daily basis - concentrating on every action they make and how it will effect them in the after-life (such a insane realm of the unreal) is very difficult, and often overlooked.
Everything must cease - that is decadence! What pretension that everything must meet an after-life, death, a final judgment! This is the decadence of religion, after-life.
(I love Nietzsche... obviously.)
So, I - I would wish it all away. That religion must cease, yet knowing things in general do not "cease," they become fragile, ripe with decay, decadent withholding the Markovian process - "In effect, the state of the process at time is conditionally independent of the history of the process before time , given the state of the process at time." - in other words, things do not cease, but are conditionaly reborn again in accord with time, proving themselves or after-time (reflection/meditation) denying their existance as current time/trends evolve... So what is decadent - religion - will surely show it. What is eternal - love, for instance - will surely prove being again and again. This is the sort of divine (innate) property of definitions, of human concepts - and as such atheists hold a much greater reposnsibility to prove their current definitions (and not have them proven for them) lest they succumb to the decadence of ineloquence of their time (which is always retreating, and being anew - current.)
(Personally, it's becoming more and more obvious why religions just can't breed such proper definitions - you truly have to think outside the box to come up with this stuff - you've got to be able to just, "flow" with no interuption of dogmatic morality or fearful inquesition - you gotta believe in yourself to believe in the thing's you speak.)
So can I comprehend eternity? ...
"The greatest weight. -- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?"
from Nietzsche's The Gay Science.
I would say, the greatest blessing, is the eternal reoccurrence of thought - that we can rely on our selves to conceive and maintain our peace. That is free will, something a religious man can never have.
That the eternal confirmation of life is current.
A new morning, anew...
Eternity, it is precious and requires humans to communicate life's existence and meaning without the bounds of morals/which breed false morality.
Confining? OR defining!
Back to invocation, of actions, we all see our actions. If we knew here - that life is all - that after-life is unknown/undefined and inavlid... then what terrible guilt would man have over acting stupidly? or... What great glory would be seen within human interactions which "will" serendipitously? If life became eternal, now... (infinity now) ...then man would have to own his actions, for mankind, for the benefit of all gods/deities/beliefs/believers! - Lest man assume false humanity, forgoing his freedom of will and introspective interaction and consume religion, and then be nothing more than beast of burden, follower of his retribution, an "organized believer," of fate and an end to things... living for an after-life. Yuck!
By the way - all of this has just become spontaneously clear to me, thanks for keeping me interested. It's not lke I'm copying and pasting - this is rather free form... like Jack Kerouac.
....
http://www.languageisavirus.com/articles/articles.php?subaction=showcomments&id=1099110986&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&
http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html
I know he likes to rock
He likes his loud guitars
And his spiders from Mars
And if there is a God
I know she's watching me
She likes what she sees
But there's trouble on the breeze
Who are you this time?
Are you one of us flying blind?
Because I'm down here throwing stones
While you're so far from home
And if there is a God
I know they're on TV
Their the spies with bedroom eyes
Who cowers in our sky
Who are you this time?
Are you one of us flying blind?
Because I'm down here throwing stones
While you're so far from home
And If there is a God
If there is a God
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Oh, okay, I thought you might realise that our consciousness is always in the eternal or infinite now. That which is eternal does not come and go, but rather it just IS.
As for this....: "I would say, the greatest blessing, is the eternal reoccurrence of thought - that we can rely on our selves to conceive and maintain our peace. That is free will, something a religious man can never have."
.... I look at it differently. Everyone has free will. There are different levels of consciousness, though. I've lived through many myself. Each one is as valid a part of the puzzle as the next one is. All is experience, good, bad or indifferent. If one is fortunate to be able to see from a "higher" station, and understand advanced ideas, one is not "right" or "better", one is an evolutionary front runner.
As we raise our consciousness and come to understand more and more the infinite view, yes, one definitely comes to own their actions. One becomes very aware of one's creations and that we are accountable for our every movement eternally.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Naturally this bothered me. I am nearly 18 years of age, I decided years ago that I felt no need for faith in any biblical god in my life and yet this man was questioning my sincerity based on my age. HOWEVER, I still stood there politely while he questioned my reasons for not believing in God. Trust me, I am a quick-tempered guy and this was a display of superhuman tolerance on my part. I refrained from making any smart-assed "opiate of the masses" comments or the like because I wanted to remain civil. When he added that often people find god later in life because of events in their life and effectively implied that i'd feel different I felt genuinely insulted and patronised by a man who had knocked on my door at 9:30 in the morning to tell me that my diminuitive age in relation to his meant that his grasp on MY spirituality was better than mine.
STILL I listened politely before saying "Maybe one day I'll feel a need in my life for a god, but that day isn't today" and he left. Believe me, atheists can be capable of tolerance and frankly, thats about as open-minded about religion as I'm gonna be right now. And you might notice that through all this I didn't question his reasons for believing in God or for feeling the need to interrupt people's private affairs to spread his beliefs. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt and then let him go and knock on my neighbours doors.
Im curious as to what happened?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Sometimes it just takes a few posts to see what people really think. You're alright with me.